From the Void- Dark Eldar Tactica for 7th Codex

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**blaktoof**

vipoid wrote:
Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

Yes also concerned with the BS2 and BS3 overwatch options they can get....Have yet to play against any DA players in the past 2 editions however so not terribly worried. Most marines I see are ultras, RG, SW.

**Jimsolo**

So, side tangent: have people considered Aberrations as their Warlord? 3 wounds, T5, weapon options for Rending, automatic FNP? All seem pretty good to me...

I've been mulling it over, but haven't committed yet.

**vipoid**

Jimsolo wrote:
So, side tangent: have people considered Aberrations as their Warlord? 3 wounds, T5, weapon options for Rending, automatic FNP? All seem pretty good to me...

I've been mulling it over, but haven't committed yet.

I dislike the idea simply because it seems unfluffy.

Sadly though, an Aberration (especially a Coven one) probably would make a markedly better warlord than any of our HQs.

My only concerns other than fluff would be that he only has 4+ LoS and that if his squad is depleted he can't join a different one. Not sure how important either of those are though.

**Frozocrone**

Make a Talos a character, I would be up for that

In regards to DA, I am slightly concerned but I think Grotesqueries and Talos should be durable enough to get into combat, Reavers might be able to tank with a 3+ Jink and 6+ FnP but eh.

Kinda want a new DE codex with all these goodies, so that everything is viable.

**vipoid**

Frozocrone wrote:

In regards to DA, I am slightly concerned but I think Grotesqueries and Talos should be durable enough to get into combat,

How would the Talos catch Ravenwing though?

**Frozocrone**

Not by themselves, you,d have to use other aspects on Covens (such as Grotesque s in Raiders) to force the opponent into the Talos range or to hold them up imo

**DirtyDeeds**

Bear in mind thay they only get the 3+ rerollable when they jink, which severely drops their damage potential in the followong shooting phase (as long as they didmt go first and turbo boosted up the field). Mass poison should do jist as well against this army as it has in thr past. Either the opponent jinks to save his guys wgile dropping his damage output, or he tries for his armor saves and gets eaten alive.

But then we encounter a problem if they go first, they can turbo boost, get the rerollable jink save, but can fire at full ballistic next shooting phase. It might be a good idea to null deploy a squad of talos or grotesques and deep strike venoms all over the board.

**vipoid**

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Bear in mind thay they only get the 3+ rerollable when they jink, which severely drops their damage potential in the followong shooting phase (as long as they didmt go first and turbo boosted up the field).

Jinking severely drops the potential of our Venoms, Ravagers, Reavers etc. too. None of those get rerollable 3+ Jink saves for their troubles.

**DirtyDeeds**

vipoid wrote:
DirtyDeeds wrote:
Bear in mind thay they only get the 3+ rerollable when they jink, which severely drops their damage potential in the followong shooting phase (as long as they didmt go first and turbo boosted up the field).

Jinking severely drops the potential of our Venoms, Ravagers, Reavers etc. too. None of those get rerollable 3+ Jink saves for their troubles.

That's why we need to cause them to jink first, either by going first or deep striking

**Dalymiddleboro**

Why not run the dark artisan with a wwp? Blast them with twin linked ap3 liquifiers and the cronos has ap3.

**Trystis**

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why not run the dark artisan with a wwp? Blast them with twin linked ap3 liquifiers and the cronos has ap3.

Because they are only S3 and its not worth spending 250+ to get the template from the cronos, and to get you have to trade the gear that improves FNP

**vipoid**

Trystis wrote:

Because they are only S3 and its not worth spending 250+ to get the template from the cronos, and to get you have to trade the gear that improves FNP

The Cronos starts with the AP3 flamer - you don't need to trade anything else for it.

That being said, I still don't think it's remotely worth it. Maybe if they hadn't nerfed both the cronos flamer *and* the liquifier gun to hell. But, as it stands, S3 on both just makes them worthless.

If you want pinpoint flamers, put a WWP Archon or Haemonculus with a unit of Medusae. They have the only flamer weapon in our army that's even remotely good.

**Dalymiddleboro**

The liquifiers is twin linked.

You're sure to roll a few 6's to wound with twins linked on the tear drop.

**FraustTheSnowman**

You'll average less than two wounds per six bikers covered...then factor in potential invuln save and feel no pain and no it's not remotely worth while. Medusae or allied wraithscythes are the only viable templates we have.

**vipoid**

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The liquifiers is twin linked.

You're sure to roll a few 6's to wound with twins linked on the tear drop.

You mean use the Talos for its liquifier gun? Trading both an attack and the ability to take Chain Flails or Ichor Injector?

I'm really not seeing the appeal. Especially since 50% of the time you won't even be ignoring their armour save.

**Frozocrone**

Experience with Wracks using Liquifiers...garbage waste of points. S3 Ap random is only consistently useful against T1-3 with a garbage save...so just us then.

Everyone else either has a good save or is T4 and above.

Need to find my Ossefactors and clip/hacksaw off the Liquifiers on my Wracks.

Cannot even fathom why you would want a Liquifier on a Talos when the Ichor Injector (for Gargantuans and ID) and Chain Flails are far superior choices for cheaper.

**vipoid**

Frozocrone wrote:
Experience with _____ using _____...garbage waste of points.

I've found a new game for our codex.

**Frozocrone**

I should really have included Tyranids as well but most lists comp lists forgo Gaunts and use Rippers and Mucolids. Mucolids have three wounds so you're not killing it and Rippers don't really care because they like to DS in so chances are your Liquifier won't even touch the Rippers.

Then everything else is T4 so again leads me to my previous point.

I would love to play that game, yet hate playing it

**blaktoof**

I have an upcoming team match I am going to play in, 925pts pet player (total team side = 1850) considering running the following:

+++ New Roster (921pts) +++

Realspace Raiders Detachment

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [2x Medusae, 2x Sslyth]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Elites +

Mandrakes [5x Mandrake]

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [3x Kabalite Warrior]
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors [3x Kabalite Warrior]
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Fast Attack +

Beastmasters [2x Clawed Fiend]
Beastmaster x2

Beastmasters [2x Clawed Fiend]
Beastmaster x2

Reavers x3, x1 Cluster Caltrop, x1 Blaster

Reavers x3, x1 Cluster Caltrop, x1 Blaster

Scourges x5, x1 shardcarbine, x4 Haywire blaster

I get paired with a random other player who has ~925pts of whatever. Ally rules are involved, so could end up being CTA allies or BB with whoever.

I am trying out a play on the majority toughness rule for the sslyth/medusa and the beastmasters/clawed fiends, making these units Toughness 5 for initial shooting/assaults whatever, will post results after with thoughts on trying to use majority toughness to get T5 DE units in RSR. Also want to try out a shooty HQ that is not expensive. I have high hopes for double S4 Ap3 templates, and the shardcarbines on the sslyth in a venom- should put out a lot of fire power.

For AT there are the kabalite warriors, 1 blaster and a thrown haywire grenade in two 5 man units. There's a blaster in each reaver squad, and the scourges with the haywire blasters. The clawed fiends each put out 6 str 5 attacks on the charge, and should be able to trash most light vehicles fairly quickly. 80 pts is 12 Str 5 attacks from the fiends, should average 3 HP on the turn they charge against AV 10.

Will post match results/thoughts after game later next week.

**vipoid**

With regard to the majority-toughness aspect, is it really worth it?

I mean, with the Sslyth you're doubling the cost of the squad but getting very little extra offence out of it. I don't think the extra toughness will be nearly as useful as you think. Similarly, is there even a point to having 2 beastmasters? Beyond giving Ld8 (which you only need one for), they're really awful units.

I'd also suggest dropping the Sybarites. Haywire grenades aren't worth 15pts.

My recommendation would be to drop most of the above, along with some or all of the mandrakes, and get either a second unit of scourges or a triple Dark Lance Ravager for extra anti-tank.

**blaktoof**

vipoid wrote:
With regard to the majority-toughness aspect, is it really worth it?

I mean, with the Sslyth you're doubling the cost of the squad but getting very little extra offence out of it. I don't think the extra toughness will be nearly as useful as you think. Similarly, is there even a point to having 2 beastmasters? Beyond giving Ld8 (which you only need one for), they're really awful units.

I'd also suggest dropping the Sybarites. Haywire grenades aren't worth 15pts.

My recommendation would be to drop most of the above, along with some or all of the mandrakes, and get either a second unit of scourges or a triple Dark Lance Ravager for extra anti-tank.

I appreciate the feedback.

TBH I do not think venom+warriors with blaster is as points effective as raider with splinter racks + bare bones warriors+1 splinter cannon. for the cost of 2 such raider squads you get 3 venom squads with blaster warriors. The difference is the raiders are effectively 48" range lance shots(12" move and shoot 36"), while the venoms+blasters are 36" range (12" move, disembark 6", shoot 18") or 24" range if you don't disembark and don't want to snapshot. Disembarking is often more likely to end in the squad dying than staying in a vehicle even at AV 10 due to the vehicle getting saves etc, and then explosions will wound 2/3rds of the models, but then you get saves and FnP which usually results in few models dying. The warriors in the raiders put out 5-6 wounds after re-rolls at 24"(+6" for vehicle movement) or 10 wounds at 12" (+6" for vehicle), the venom puts out 4-5 wounds at 36" + 1-2 at 24" from the passengers, and 3-4 at 12" from the passengers-including the blaster shot as anti infantry.

So we are left with 3 AT shots if we take venoms+warriors, versus 2 AT shots from raiders but greater threat range from raiders ( I prefer not to disembark unless necessary, so usually Raiders 48" versus 24" blasters means I am shooting first turn with raiders, and maybe not with blasters in venoms) and then the raiders total anti infantry shots are: 5-6 at 12-24"(+6" for vehicle) or 10 at 12"(+6" for vehicle) versus venoms 4-5 + 1-2, or + 3-4. With this in mind, and from what I usually see playing (especially if you go first as Dark Eldar, are that raiders+warriors outperform venoms+warriors in both AT and anti infantry. Of course tables are different, opponents, so maybe you hide your venoms turn 1, then shoot turn 2- where the raiders may shoot turn 1 and then get shot.

anyways- I purposely am looking at the cost of the haywire grenades+sybarite (15pts) versus a blaster (15pts) as a way to get a second anti tank shot into the 5 man units in the venoms, plus the upgraded LD to see how it works out. I plan to run some warrior squads like this for 10 or so games eventually. Yeah they are short ranged (8") but gives me also the option of assaulting for an additional possible HP removal on a vehicle from the haywire grenades in a turn, and often getting my warriors in blaster range results in getting close to 8" from enemies eventually.

as for the majority toughness, is it worth it? I don't know.

I have revised my list, and decided to just go for raw power instead of testing stuff out.

+++ New Roster (922pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (Realspace Raiders Detachment) ++

+ (No Category) +

Realspace Raiders Detachment

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [Medusae]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [4x Kabalite Warrior]
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors [4x Kabalite Warrior]
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Fast Attack +

[Clawed Fiend]

[Clawed Fiend]

Reavers x6
[2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
Reaver jetbike [Blaster] x2

Reavers x6
[2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
Reaver jetbike [Blaster] x2

Scourges x5
[Scourge] x1
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon [Heat lance] x4

Scourges x5
[Scourge] x1
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon [Heat lance] x4

will probably keep scourges off table to start and DS them in, depending on table/opponents army.

**vipoid**

That list looks a lot more solid.

The only thing I'd suggest is maybe swapping one of the Scourge squads to have haywire guns

Probably more down to personal taste though.

Which model is your warlord?

**Ignatius**

Hello all, hopefully you can bear with me derailing this thread with some pretty simple questions. I am looking to make Dark Eldar my main tournament army. I play with Khorne and Imperial Guard and neither are built very well for competitive play. I have a good amount of Dark Eldar already, but I am moving to Fort Benning Georgia for 6 months of training and am not bringing my collections with me due to logistics.

I can bring a few models/ boxes to build and paint, and since I've got tournaments coming up when I return I'd like to have this army sorted out by then.

Onto the questions:
1) Is there ever a reason to bring 10 man Scourge Squads? Or is the Min/maxing of the weapons the best way to bring them?

2) Arena Champion, Agonizer Reaver a good idea? Or should I keep them character free?

3) How many Reaver squads are too many? How many should each squad have?

4) Special Weapons on the Reavers yay or nay?

5) I enjoy Ravagers and have a few of them. Are they viable when taken in numbers? Or is more than one too many? Should they all take 3 Dark Lances or keep one with Disintegration Cannons?

6) Razorwings are a competitive choice correct?

7) Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, or a mix of both?

8) Are Grots or Talos worth taking outside of the Coven Supplement? Are they ever worth just bringing one of them?

9) Anyone have experience with taking Dark Eldar to a Highlander formatted tournament?

**vipoid**

Ignatius wrote:
Onto the questions:
1) Is there ever a reason to bring 10 man Scourge Squads? Or is the Min/maxing of the weapons the best way to bring them?

2) Arena Champion, Agonizer Reaver a good idea? Or should I keep them character free?

3) How many Reaver squads are too many? How many should each squad have?

4) Special Weapons on the Reavers yay or nay?

5) I enjoy Ravagers and have a few of them. Are they viable when taken in numbers? Or is more than one too many? Should they all take 3 Dark Lances or keep one with Disintegration Cannons?

6) Razorwings are a competitive choice correct?

7) Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, or a mix of both?

8) Are Grots or Talos worth taking outside of the Coven Supplement? Are they ever worth just bringing one of them?

9) Anyone have experience with taking Dark Eldar to a Highlander formatted tournament?

1) No reason whatsoever. Larger squads can't take any more special weapons, and that's the only reason you're taking scourges.

2) I'd keep them character-free. Also, Agonisers are overcosted on our HQs, let alone squad sergeants (and, in this case, they don't really fit the role of Reavers).

However, there is one case where you could consider an Arena Champion - when you want one as your warlord.

3) 3- or 6-man units are probably best. They're a good unit so you can certainly get away with multiple squads. For me, it would probably depend on how many FA slots I had available.

4) I'd always take maximum Cluster Caltrops, if you count those. I also like taking Heat Lances or Blasters on them - it gives them a bit more bite when they're not jinking. Your mileage may vary on this one, but I'd suggest trying them with guns.

5) Given the crappiness of Dark Lances and their inherent fragility, Ravagers are probably best when taken in numbers. Makes there shooting more reliable and gives you some redundancy.

6) I believe so.

7) I never take beast packs of any combination, so I'll let someone else field this one.

8) Somewhat. Talos don't lose anything per se, but they also don't really bring much without their fancy formations. Grots are useable, but I think you'll really miss their Coven PfP - Fearless, Fear (bleh), IWND, Zealot and EW are a lot better than what the DE PfP gets them - nothing, more nothing, meh, Fearless and meh again.

9) I'm afraid I certainly don't.

Hope the rest helps.

**Jimsolo**

Ignatius wrote:

1) Is there ever a reason to bring 10 man Scourge Squads? Or is the Min/maxing of the weapons the best way to bring them?

Min/max. The only reason to take ten might be to fill the Hellion/Scourge Apoc formation.

2) Arena Champion, Agonizer Reaver a good idea? Or should I keep them character free?

I think the Arena Champ is too expensive and too weak.

3) How many Reaver squads are too many? How many should each squad have?

Depending on support and local meta, 1-3 will work fine. I think you might even be able to get away spamming more if you wanted to do a Realspace Raiders detachment. 6 is my magic number, although some folks swear by 3 or 9.

4) Special Weapons on the Reavers yay or nay?

Caltrops are mandatory. Heat Lances optional. I don't recommend futzing with anything else.

5) I enjoy Ravagers and have a few of them. Are they viable when taken in numbers? Or is more than one too many? Should they all take 3 Dark Lances or keep one with Disintegration Cannons?

Opinions vary. Some folks recommend maxing out on them. They are viable, although not as great as once they were. I go Dark Lances unless I know I'll be facing an army the dissies will be more advantageous against.

6) Razorwings are a competitive choice correct?

In my opinion, not so much. Unless your meta is horde heavy.

7) Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, or a mix of both?

None. Beast packs are not so hot. Reavers would be a better fit for the slot.

8) Are Grots or Talos worth taking outside of the Coven Supplement? Are they ever worth just bringing one of them?

Grits, god yes! Best HQ bodyguard we have. So long as you have a high Ld character to babysit them, they rock on toast. Taloi are less thrilling outside of their formations, but they can still be fun. They make a good unit to push forward, since they draw enemy fire while everything else rushes across the board.

9) Anyone have experience with taking Dark Eldar to a Highlander formatted tournament?

I do not. If you head over to the Dark City website, their Dark Eldar podcast has an episode entirely about JUST this, however. It's a great listen (and a wonderful DE community, to boot!) and probably worth checking out.

**Ignatius**

Absolutely does help. I have very little experience playing with or against Dark Eldar despite playing for more than a decade. One of the reasons I like the faction so much. So I'm essentially starting from scratch with these guys and I'm excited to get some games in.

I only asked about the Arena Champion with the Agonizer because to use the Cluster Caltrops you've got to actually charge a unit instead of going over them like before. So my logic was I might as well use the high initiative to my benefit to hopefully get some more wounds on whatever I charged.

I am planning on running Realspace Raiders to get a lot of Scourges and Reavers in the army. My HQ I'm thinking an Archon with WWP to drop something in. I haven't quite figured out what that is going to be though. If not, it'll just be a Lhamaean.

Edit: Jim you ninja'd me. So I'm seeing a consensus regarding a few things which is very helpful in building a list I'll be able to bring to a competitive tournament circuit. Considering the intent of the army I suppose I very much should check out the dedicated Dark Eldar forum. I've browsed, but never delved too deep. I have no idea what the meta will be- essentially competitive.

**vipoid**

Ignatius wrote:

I only asked about the Arena Champion with the Agonizer because to use the Cluster Caltrops you've got to actually charge a unit instead of going over them like before. So my logic was I might as well use the high initiative to my benefit to hopefully get some more wounds on whatever I charged.

I get what you mean. So, allow me to elaborate a bit more:

1) Arena Champions with Agonisers are expensive. A 3-man Reaver squad with Cluster Caltrops and a Heat-Lance (or Blaster) is 73pts. If you add an Arena Champion with Agoniser, you're adding 35pts - almost 50% - to the cost of the squad. I'd rather have 3 units of champion-less reavers than 2 units with champions.

2) The extra point investment makes them less expendable, which I dislike. Don't get me wrong - I love my Reaver squads. But, I also love being able to throw them away on suicide missions without flinching.

3) Whilst they usually need to charge to do damage, I don't take mine to charge infantry. Their real targets are vehicles - which they shoot with heat lances and then charge with cluster caltrops. For obvious reasons, Agonisers don't help here.

4) Even against the optimal target (marines), the Agoniser isn't much use. On the charge, the Arena Champion has 4 attacks at WS4. So, 2 hits. Then, the agoniser wounds on a 4+, so 1 successful wound. Is that really worth 35pts? I mean, that's what you'd expect to pay for a sergeant with a power fist. Instead, we've got a weapon that isn't AP2, needs 4s to wound even infantry (compared to 2s for the PF), and can't even scratch vehicles.

Ignatius wrote:

I am planning on running Realspace Raiders to get a lot of Scourges and Reavers in the army. My HQ I'm thinking an Archon with WWP to drop something in. I haven't quite figured out what that is going to be though. If not, it'll just be a Lhamaean.

Sounds good.

**Vitali Advenil**

Sorry for butting in suddenly, but I recently got some DE models and had a question about the Venom. It has a transport capacity of 5, but do the models riding on top count as that, or are they just decoration? I couldn't find anything about it, and I'm assuming that they're only there for decoration.

**Frozocrone**

Just decoration

**Ignatius**

vipoid wrote:
Ignatius wrote:

I only asked about the Arena Champion with the Agonizer because to use the Cluster Caltrops you've got to actually charge a unit instead of going over them like before. So my logic was I might as well use the high initiative to my benefit to hopefully get some more wounds on whatever I charged.

I get what you mean. So, allow me to elaborate a bit more:

1) Arena Champions with Agonisers are expensive. A 3-man Reaver squad with Cluster Caltrops and a Heat-Lance (or Blaster) is 73pts. If you add an Arena Champion with Agoniser, you're adding 35pts - almost 50% - to the cost of the squad. I'd rather have 3 units of champion-less reavers than 2 units with champions.

2) The extra point investment makes them less expendable, which I dislike. Don't get me wrong - I love my Reaver squads. But, I also love being able to throw them away on suicide missions without flinching.

3) Whilst they usually need to charge to do damage, I don't take mine to charge infantry. Their real targets are vehicles - which they shoot with heat lances and then charge with cluster caltrops. For obvious reasons, Agonisers don't help here.

4) Even against the optimal target (marines), the Agoniser isn't much use. On the charge, the Arena Champion has 4 attacks at WS4. So, 2 hits. Then, the agoniser wounds on a 4+, so 1 successful wound. Is that really worth 35pts? I mean, that's what you'd expect to pay for a sergeant with a power fist. Instead, we've got a weapon that isn't AP2, needs 4s to wound even infantry (compared to 2s for the PF), and can't even scratch vehicles.

That sounds like a pretty fair assessment. I suppose I just counted on the Reavers lasting for a while in the game, where that 1 wound per phase would hopefully turn into 3,4, or 5 as the game wears on. I just finished a practice game, and have found firsthand that Reavers in fact do not last as long as I had anticipated. And therefore see the wisdom of Boys over toys in this instance.

Are there any units that you all have found useful with a WWP Archon? I know of the Medusae with their flamer templates, the Grotesques with their Liquifiers, and Blasterborn. Is there any others? (Besides D-Scythe Wraithguard of course).