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So I'm racking my brain on this one.
Since guardsmen men themselves offer no melee resistence I'm trying to figure out how to delay/ counter assault.

Orgyns: usless, don't get me started
3 man ratling team: they're cheap, but they usually die in one turn of assault.
Rough Riders: Personally I like the look and feel of this option. Howerver, they're still one shot wonders.

any suggestions?

Thanks

Guard Counter-Assault exists to do one of two things:

1. Stall the enemy so that nearby forces can get away.
2. Wipe out enough of the enemy before they can cause significant damage.

Stalling enemy forces is simple. You can usually have a few cheap, throwaway units like a Platoon Command Section w/4 Flamers to run up, torch a squad, and then charge in. Alternativley you can have 76 point Heavy Bolter/Flamer squads that can do a similar thing, and a couple of them swarming most HTH units (especially when combined with Close-Order Drill) can be enough to hold them there for a while, as long as you stay within range of your CHQ and Standard Bearer. Conscripts can sort of fill that role, but suffer from the sweeping advance quite a bit, given their unit size (losing 40 Conscripts to a single Chaplain ain't fun, and it's one of the reasons I hate the sweeping advance rules).

So with throwaway units you can rush in with them, or let them get charged and hopefully the enemy will defeat you during their turn, giving you your turn to blast them to bits. Meanwhile all your units move more than 6" away, and you're fine.


The second one, wiping out enough of the enemy before they can cause significant damage, is the thing you use Rough Riders for. I5 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge will see off most units, and with 8 of them in a unit you can kill 5-6 MEQs in a single hit, gutting any unit that would be attacking you. The RRs will die to return attacks, but by that stage there isn't much of the enemy unit left, and you can then swarm them with two or three cheapy squads (3X10 Guardsmen = 63 attacks on the charge = 3-4 MEQs dead).

The other units that can do this are Special Wepaon Squads and Cyclops Demo Vehicles, both of which can slam the enemy unit with an S8 AP2 pie-plate, ripping everything up to and including Terminators to pieces. Cyclops vehicles are an absolute steal at 25 points each, and will usually cause significantly more damage than they're worth (once took out 192 points worth of Berzerkers in a single hit with a Cyclops). Just like RRs, these units are one-hit-wonders, but they hit really hard.


As far as your unit suggestions go - yes, Ogryn are a complete waste. Ratlings are not worth the Doctrine Points. RRs have been described above.

BYE

RR are the only viable option for "counter assaulting". Everything else is just a tarpit or speed bump.

For 72 points you get 13 attacks on the charge at Str 5, Ini 5 power weapons. Two units of these are gold, because they eat up so few points, but can really win a game for you.

gdurant wrote:So I'm racking my brain on this one.
Since guardsmen men themselves offer no melee resistence I'm trying to figure out how to delay/ counter assault.

Orgyns: usless, don't get me started
3 man ratling team: they're cheap, but they usually die in one turn of assault.
Rough Riders: Personally I like the look and feel of this option. Howerver, they're still one shot wonders.

any suggestions?

Thanks

HBMC did a pretty good overview, so I'll stick to a list:

1) Rough Riders: Single shot, but good.
2) Conscripts, if you want to paint a lot of models.
3) Demo Charges/Cyclops Demo Vehicles: most single-wound assault units don't like the S8 AP2 nastiness.
4) Platoon command squads: flamers/meltaguns/plasma to taste, to knock small nasty squads down a bit (before throwing a line squad at the survivors).
5) Allied units. Not a huge fan myself, but you can look to Grey Knight Termies or Seraphim for a little help, if you're inclined.

Rough Riders FTW. One shot wonders they may be, but that one shot is a good one. RRs are nothing short of a first-rate counter-charge unit, really, not just by Guard standards.

For my Death Korps army I'm toying with the idea of a Death Rider Command Squad, with HSO with a PW. I have no idea how they'll do (as I haven't got them yet) but it will at least give them more than the one shot. Esp with the much welcomed 6+ Inv save for each man.

Craig

Yeah, Rough Riders have the striking distance to really pre-emptively assault just about anything. The other infantry based options are good against traditional assaulters, but often come up short against jump pack troops, Deep Strikers who land in an unexpected place or JSJ elites that happen to get a little too close for their own good.

I love Rough Riders, especially since they usually hit hard on the way in, usually win the first round of combat, and then give up the ghost during the enemy's turn and leave the enemy open to be shot up.

Thanks for the feed back.
Though were are the rules for the demo vehicles?

Imperial Armour. Its a Forgeworld piece - though for the model use a converted Epic scale Land Raider.

Love the idea of using it aginsat Berzerkers.

"Enemy sighted. Blood For the Blood God, we must all charge into it, rawwrrr."
"But its a big bomb on tracks!"
"Are you a coward? charge anyway, bleed its machine oil in Khorne's name."

On the counterassault note there is one unit you are forgetting. The Sentinel.

As power fists are not really needed against guard, many units normally a threat to the guardsmen can be stopped by a Sentinel, others can be delayed. If you only have S3, its immune to your attacks. Gaunts, Banshees will be stopped by a Sentinel no less firmly than by an SM Dreadnought. Charge orks first and they have the same problem (if there is no klaw). S4 requires 6's and even some limited S5 can be held for a while.

I dont think stalling would work. Cause it brings the enemy even closer cause they now get to move an extra 6" I would say that the best thing to do is avoid H2H at all costs. You can have one strong unit around your 3rd line or so so get a counter charge but other than that, they suck. RR are good to charge at people as well but with guard your best bet is to blast everyone off of the table. ALso if you are certain you are going to get charged anyways on your opponents turn it does not hurt to move up and rapid fire. Like if they had packs or somthing.

Sorry impossible. Guard take up too much of your tableside to really allow large enough gaps devoid of models to charge. If the enemy gets to advance units, they will inevitably come into contact with soft T3 humans. Unless you take minimum grenadier troops squads and a tank army.

Enemies need to be delayed diverted or destroyed.
Sentinels and sacrificial squads do the first, juse squads against power fist units, Sentinels against low strength units. Divert is normally based on the direction you charge and therefore flee in, and occassional compulsory move baiting. Only Rough Riders can destroy units in close combat, but then that is what all those guns are for.

smart_alex wrote:I dont think stalling would work.

No, it does. I've done it enough times to know.

Best example is when I charged 3 Squads of Guardsmen into HTH with a unit of Scorps. In the end I had 4 squads in HTH with the Scorps, wiped them out in a turn, and didn't lose any full squads in return (had one squad with just the Sergeant left!). Another good example is when I had a Glaive Prince and 16 Berzerkers slam into a 30-man unit of Conscripts. They were so bunched they couldn't kill all the Conscripts in one go, so they killed most of them, they held thanks to Ld9 from my commander, and then I moved everything back while it was going on. The way I did it ensured that the Glaive Prince was stuck chasing down my Demolisher (closest enemy unit to him), allowing me to take him out with Lascannon fire from the other end of the table, and the other squad of Berzerkers ran headlong into a SWS and a Cyclops. It didn't end well for them.

Stalling works. It's Guard Counter Assault 101.

BYE

HBMC is correct. Overall, I have found the best counter assault is the cyclops demo vehicles. RR are too hard to hide and usually end up not hitting at full strength due to casualties. Pods, Deepstriking Termies, etc. all spell doom for RR. I prefer the cyclops, since it is easier to hide, and if they kill it, it only costed you 25pts.

Capt K

rough riders all the way, always take the Vet and give him a power weapon so on the off chance he survives a round he can keep on chopping down MEQS.

Hide the rough riders behind cover untill you need them, then hit hard where you need to, you have an 18" attack radius if you shoot your las pistols (worth it, i've seen them kill someone once.) and if you don't you can fleet the extra 1" you are gaurenteed to roll.

In appocalpse it's worth giving them all melta bombs so the can go titan hunting when the've fought their one round of combat, that scares people.

In short my 3 RR squadrons are the only unit my mate's beserkers fear in close combat. (and genestealers)

Sometimes Berzerkers are too easy. Deepstrike something behind them.

"Yoo hoo, we are over here."

Get them to waste a full turn moving away from your battlelines.

Ooooooo, Sentinels. Nothing hurts more than seeing one of those slip the line of juicy guards and tie up an entire swarm of Spinegaunts for the rest of the game. They have rules for Leadership checks to fire on distant targets...why can't there be Leadership checks to safely break from CC you can't possibly win?

What good is hiding RR when Fury of the Ancients, Indirect weapons, Pods, Deepstriking whatevers, are there to shut them down? At least with a cyclops it only costs you 25pts if someone is willing to eliminate it.

Capt K

What is cyclops?

CaptKaruthors wrote:What good is hiding RR when Fury of the Ancients, Indirect weapons, Pods, Deepstriking whatevers, are there to shut them down? At least with a cyclops it only costs you 25pts if someone is willing to eliminate it.

Capt K

Big flaw: requires that your environment allows IA units.

Your rough riders should not be exposed to Pod or Deep-striking fire, as there shouldn't be a safe spot to land behind the terrain where you've parked your ponies. And most armies with indirect fire aren't heavily assault oriented (so long, Mr. Defiler, we'll miss you).

Power fists on the officers and sergeants is always a good thing in my opinion.

- G

Uhh right. Lots of interesting views.

Stick with the Conscript Platoon.

I can't imagine why anyone would let them get run down, seems silly.

50 Conscripts + Ibram Gaunt = Tarpit of Doom.

275 Points, but boy it holds up well against everything but massive flamers.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Power fists on the officers and sergeants is always a good thing in my opinion.

I really hope you're being facetious.

BYE

Stelek wrote:275 Points, but boy it holds up well against everything but massive flamers.

Guard Counter-Assault needn't be that expensive, nor should you have to rely on a special bloody character for it either.

Guard Counter-Assault should be very cheap, as to not spend too many points away from the guns.

BYE

I guess HBMC. I like having the unit at 1850-2500.

Under those points, I'd probably not run it.

I think my buddys 330 man IG army would have been obliterated if he didn't have the 50 conscripts to hold my assault marines off at the ard boyz.

There's quite a few armies that can run across the board and smack IG around. I guess I'd rather have the sure thing than the 'I hope it does well' unit.

Seraphim + The horses are decent enough but they aren't a midfield tarpit for your guns to hide behing, which I think is better than a counterassault unit.

Quick Question guys:


@HBMC: What's a "SWS"?

@Samwise: What's a "JSJ"?


(Just trying to get glossary entries updated).

Maybe I'm just odd, but I prefer to pack in as much firepower as possible. Damn the countercharge, I say - if my opponent has nothing left alive once he reaches my lines, then there sure as hell isn't a whole ton he can do to me, is there?

I pack a pair of Hellhounds, as well as a pair of 8-man Grenadiers with 2 Plasma Guns as my "countercharge". Technically, these are area denial units - the 'Hounds torch anything (including 3+ and 2+) that approaches, while the Grenadiers hang behind my more threatening gunline until the enemy is within 18". Move the Stormies forward, doubletap the pair of Plasma Guns. For good measure, I'll drop down a Special Weapons Squad with a pair of Meltaguns and a Demo Charge if I'm facing 2+ saves.

Otherwise, I rely on the elimination of my opponent from a distance. Not the best option, I know, but it has held up well so far.

CK

yakface wrote:
Quick Question guys:


@HBMC: What's a "SWS"?

@Samwise: What's a "JSJ"?


(Just trying to get glossary entries updated).

JSJ is 'Jump Shoot Jump', referring to Tau Battlesuits.

SWS is 'Special Weapons Squad', uhh yeah.

I kinda hate the 50 man conscript platoon. anyone who brings one of those against me in a tournament is basically guaranteed a victory because it limits the game to 3 rounds while he moves his conscripts a half hour at a time. the shorter the game the better for a shootie army, right?

I only mention this because I've seen this happen a number of times with IG players and their 200 model armies in tournaments - they never finish a game and do well by virtue of denying their opponent turns.

Plus, RR just look cooler!

Oh I don't know, that's only one kind of IG army. There are plenty of others, like the deep strike lists. I've played quite a few of those, and gone the distance in turns....while pummeling 150-200 guardsmen. Anyone that insists on measuring more than a few models of his conscripts when there's no reason to do so, I usually tell them politely to stop measuring.

Only one guy insisted, so I told him I'd have to get a judge if he wouldn't just play. Funny thing is, after trying to slowplay, he still lost badly and I got a 1 for sportsmanship and a judge came over to ask me why.

Ah the irony. lol