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Emperors champion, Abhor the witch 110
Master of sanctity, BP, Holy orb, Meltabonbs Teleport homer, 131

10 man crusader squad, with 10 inntiates, powerfist 275
6 initiates Plasma gun lascannon 117
6 initiates Plasma gun lascannon 117

5 Terminators, 2 assault cannons tank hunters 255
5 Terminators 2 assault cannons tank hunters 255
1 land speeder assault cannon 80
1 land speeder assault cannon 80
1 land speeder assault cannon 80

I tailored it fora anti eldar List but so far every game against Chaos I've won so is their any way to improve on the list or Not.
ps I'mnot sure but I think it's full of CHEESE

I just picked up the codex today, and I am really interested in starting a black templars army, always loved the paint scheme but in 3rd ed they were known as cheezy, so it turned me off to them. Now I think they have been more balanced and am interested in building a 1750-1850 point list. Having used them before, what would you recommend for a balanced force. I was thinking along the lines of 2 chappys leading 20 man squads on foot, a land raider crusader with 8 assault termies, and some land speeder tornadoes. Does this list do well or is it too assaulty/not shooty enough to compete?

Orock, if you want two 20-mans, take Grimaldus. For 195 points, you get a 6" Fearless bubble that will zoom up the field.

I'd recommend against LRCs. I find them to be bullet magnets that often don't complete their intended mission. You're better off deepstriking shooty terminators in place of the Assault Termies. You get to kill stuff on the drop with a pair of AssCans, and then you crump 'em in h2h with powerfists.

Tornadoes with HB/AC are excellent. I don't field any myself, but I would if I could.

Black Templar strength lies in Terminators in the Elites slots, Chaplains in the HQ slots (although universal Ld10 via a Marshal is crucial if you have a ton of ground troops), Assault Marines and Tornadoes in the FA slots, and Crusader Squads in the Troops slots.

As for the OP:

The list looks pretty good, with the exception of the Las/Plas. With the Kill Them All rule, they'll target distant enemy armor at Ld7, which is piss poor when trying to effectively drop a target. You already have 5 Assault Cannons on deepstriking or rapid strike platforms - I'd suggest ditching the pair of Las-Plas in favor of an 8-man PF/Melta. make them both 8-man PF Meltas, in fact, so that you can spare enough points to ditch the Chaplain and replace him with Grimaldus. That way, you'll have Grim, 3 Cenobytes, the EC, and 16 Marines (21 models) moving very quickly up the field in a Fearless ball of death, while your Terminators disrupt in the backfield and your Speeders harass the flanks.

I'm worried, however, that once your opponent vaporizes the Termies with concentrated fire and glances your skimmers out of the sky, that you'll be sh*t outta luck and stuck with some really slow footsloggers as your only force. Just be wary of your casualties to the mobile elements of your army and you should be fine.

On a cheese note, I would say that it's a bit much on the ACs. Then again, I wouldn't have a second's hesitation on fielding this list if I had tornadoes. I'd make the Termie squads 6-mans, or just strip the infantry and beef the Terminators (I did that with one list. It looked something like this

Master of Sanctity w/ Jump Pack, HOA, Crozius, Rosarius, Bolt Pistol, Teleport Homer- 151pts

Marshal w/ Lightning Claw Pair, Jump Pack, HOA, Combat Shield, Teleport Homer - 155pts

Terminator Squad (8) w/ 2 AC - 360pts
Terminator Squad (8) w/ 2 AC - 360pts

6-man Las/Plas - 117pts
6-man Las/Plas - 117pts

5-man Assault Squad w/ PF - 125pts
5-man Assault Squad w/ Plasma Pistol - 115pts

1500 Points on the nose.

Zoom in the two 6-man Assault Squads through terrain, breaking off the ICs as necessary. Fly them close, dump off 16 Terminators, sit back and laugh. Take potshots at fleeing armor/infantry. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Nasty, but a one-trick pony. Couldn't handle ultrafast mech (eldar), and had no anti-monolith sans the 2 Lascannons, which as many know are frighteningly unreliable sometimes.

CK

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Orock, if you want two 20-mans, take Grimaldus. For 195 points, you get a 6" Fearless bubble that will zoom up the field.

I'd recommend against LRCs. I find them to be bullet magnets that often don't complete their intended mission. You're better off deepstriking shooty terminators in place of the Assault Termies. You get to kill stuff on the drop with a pair of AssCans, and then you crump 'em in h2h with powerfists.

Tornadoes with HB/AC are excellent. I don't field any myself, but I would if I could.

Black Templar strength lies in Terminators in the Elites slots, Chaplains in the HQ slots (although universal Ld10 via a Marshal is crucial if you have a ton of ground troops), Assault Marines and Tornadoes in the FA slots, and Crusader Squads in the Troops slots.

As for the OP:

The list looks pretty good, with the exception of the Las/Plas. With the Kill Them All rule, they'll target distant enemy armor at Ld7, which is piss poor when trying to effectively drop a target. You already have 5 Assault Cannons on deepstriking or rapid strike platforms - I'd suggest ditching the pair of Las-Plas in favor of an 8-man PF/Melta. make them both 8-man PF Meltas, in fact, so that you can spare enough points to ditch the Chaplain and replace him with Grimaldus. That way, you'll have Grim, 3 Cenobytes, the EC, and 16 Marines (21 models) moving very quickly up the field in a Fearless ball of death, while your Terminators disrupt in the backfield and your Speeders harass the flanks.

I'm worried, however, that once your opponent vaporizes the Termies with concentrated fire and glances your skimmers out of the sky, that you'll be sh*t outta luck and stuck with some really slow footsloggers as your only force. Just be wary of your casualties to the mobile elements of your army and you should be fine.

On a cheese note, I would say that it's a bit much on the ACs. Then again, I wouldn't have a second's hesitation on fielding this list if I had tornadoes. I'd make the Termie squads 6-mans, or just strip the infantry and beef the Terminators (I did that with one list. It looked something like this

Master of Sanctity w/ Jump Pack, HOA, Crozius, Rosarius, Bolt Pistol, Teleport Homer- 151pts

Marshal w/ Lightning Claw Pair, Jump Pack, HOA, Combat Shield, Teleport Homer - 155pts

Terminator Squad (8) w/ 2 AC - 360pts
Terminator Squad (8) w/ 2 AC - 360pts

6-man Las/Plas - 117pts
6-man Las/Plas - 117pts

5-man Assault Squad w/ PF - 125pts
5-man Assault Squad w/ Plasma Pistol - 115pts

1500 Points on the nose.

Zoom in the two 6-man Assault Squads through terrain, breaking off the ICs as necessary. Fly them close, dump off 16 Terminators, sit back and laugh. Take potshots at fleeing armor/infantry. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Nasty, but a one-trick pony. Couldn't handle ultrafast mech (eldar), and had no anti-monolith sans the 2 Lascannons, which as many know are frighteningly unreliable sometimes.

CK

No offense, but that dosent sound much like a black templars army at all, more like nilla marines. Are 20 man marine assaulty squads backed up with speeders and assault termies just so uncompetative I am best off doing nilla marines?

To be quite honest, Yes. Templars are at a serious disadvantage when played like an Assault force rather than a counter assault force. Black Templar's strength lies in its ability to lay down strong cover fire while small units of assault troops advance up the Flank and hit the enemy in vulnerable spots.

Blindly running towards your opponent with massive over priced squads in hopes that a power fist and a few other guys will make it into combat spells doom for Black Templars. They need to be protected untill they are within striking distance then pop out and take your opponent with squads that are at or near full strength. This is the only way I see Templars being competitive.

Sadly, BT is at a serious disadvantage when played with the BT codex :

When they fire the guy who wrote DA, they should get this bastard too.

I think it was the same person.

Negativemoney wrote:I think it was the same person.

I think the expression would be to "kill two crappy codex writers with one stone"

Granted It is dodgey and contradictive on a lot of areas. but what matters is advice on my list not whining on how crappy the writter is..
And Corpseman of KRIEG I am pretty sure that you don't have to take TP tests to shoot at vehicles

You do have to take the test if you want to shoot at a vehicle/large target that is not the closest such target.

Thank you tegeus-Cromis. I didn't explicitly say that in my post, but it was what I was trying to get across.

Sadly, Orock, Longshot and Negativemoney are right. BT are at a serious disadvantage in their current incarnation. The only way I've been able to keep my list competitive is to take gak-tons of Terminators.

I do apologize for the list - I was commenting on Orock's build while trying to keep it along the lines of the OP's build. Oops...

@Aristotle:

I think you really need to go Vanilla with that kind of build. You'll get Veteran Sergeants, cheaper commanders, and cheaper basic units, resulting in a stronger list in general. In fact, the only thing uniquely Templar in your list is the 10-man squad with Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons.

I'll admit, I have a pair of 6-man Las/Plas Squads. I use them as picket squads rather than as my core troops choices. Despite the loss of infantry-based antitank, using anything other than 8+ man squads tooled for CC is detrimental to the Templar list. They are the only horde army in the game with a 3+ save. Capitalize on that.

I used to field 16-man Squads of 8 Initiates and 8 Neophytes with the obligatory Power Fist and Meltagun. Recently, I've been experimenting with both 10-man pure Initiate squads and 20-man Maxed squads. They each have their advantages and drawbacks. the 8/8 mixed squads have the advantage of shunting the initial salvo onto the Neophytes, keeping the tougher Marines alive. The 10-mans don't clutter the battlefield as much, and are a little more maneuverable and less cumbersome. Maximum size squads have the greatest hitting power, but are "slower" due to the fact that their size will have them hitting difficult terrain a LOT, and because it is difficult to bring the entire squad's hitting power to bear on a single target in close combat.

In short, Aristotle, your list is good - as a Nilla list. It doesn't match the Templar list construction at all, and using the BT codex to make a predominantly Vanilla SM build seems very contrary.

@Orock:

Your concept build is not doomed to fail, necessarily. However, taking something like Assault Terminators, which are expensive and slow, and sticking them in a huge fat points sink of a vehicle is not a winning strategy by any means. Sure, it'll hurt to get slammed by this, but we're talking about nearly 600 points of stuff being eaten up in a single entry of a 1750-1850 points list. A third of the army will be rendered useless at the unfortunate drop of a hat. Relying on such a centerpiece unit is not a good idea for any army - especially not when said army is already disadvantaged and is generally going to struggle with top-tier lists.

If you want the horde list, I'd recommend slimming down the 20-mans to 16 with 8 Inits and 8 Neophytes. This will make them somewhat more manageable in terms of occupying craptons of space on the board. If you want Terminators, that's fine. I'll say this though: If you want them to march, take shooty termies. If you deepstrike them, I'd recommend shooty over assaulty, but that's more or less discretionary. Only take even-numbered squads (6 is recommended at the 1800 level), as this will force your opponent to kill an additional model to render the squad nonscoring.

The Tornadoes are up to you as a decision. I have a pair of Multi-Melta Landspeeders, but rarely use them in favor of a pair of Attack Bikes. While they can be instakilled and dropped by S3 unlike the Speeder, they are not vehicles, meaning my opponent can't pick them out without forcing a TP test. Give them Multi-Meltas, zoom them up the flank, torch a tank, and them throw them into a shooty squad if possible. They'll tarpit an enemy unit long enough to chuck your big guns in.

As far as vehicles go, if you want anti-tank you can either take vehicle-mounted (which doesn't need to take TP tests) weapons, like the ever-favorite TL Las Predator with HB Sponsons, or you can take TONS of melta-based small arms and bombs. Vindicators are your infantry's best friend, especially with PMS, which will keep them moving up the field, warding off would-be bogger units with S10 pieplateage and line of sight blocking. Here's a rough concept you might consider:

Reclusiarch (cheapo pattern) w/ Bolt Pistol - 96
Reclusiarch (cheapo pattern) w/ Bolt Pistol - 96

6-man Terminator Squad w/ 2 Assault Cannons, Tank Hunters - 295
6-man Terminator Squad w/ 2 Assault Cannons, Tank Hunters - 295

16-man (8/8) Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 235
16-man (8/8) Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 235

Tornado w/ HB, AC - 80
Tornado w/ HB, AC - 80

Vindicator w/ PMS - 155
Vindicator w/ PMS -155

That's 1722 points, leaving you with goodness to spare for goodies like the Holy Orb of Antioch (take these if you know you'll be fighting Necrons - they are wonderful surprises against Monoliths).

That build will give you 46 sloggers with 2 support vehicles (Vindis) and 2 rapid strike picketers (Tornadoes). If you want to take it up to 2000, I'd recommend Assault Marines. They are good stuff.

Whew, that was a long post. Hope that helps.

CK

Aristotle wrote:Granted It is dodgey and contradictive on a lot of areas. but what matters is advice on my list not whining on how crappy the writter is..
And Corpseman of KRIEG I am pretty sure that you don't have to take TP tests to shoot at vehicles

My advice would be to play vanilla space marines and take traits for assaulty troops if you want them. Paint them black and decorate them like templars.

I'm not whining about it so much as saying that since you have the option to use codex SM you should take it. Or build your list on a codex-sm pattern like COK did. If you look at his list, it's basically a vanilla SM list with Bt troops, which are the only thing that's any good in the dex really.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Thank you tegeus-Cromis. I didn't explicitly say that in my post, but it was what I was trying to get across.

Sadly, Orock, Longshot and Negativemoney are right. BT are at a serious disadvantage in their current incarnation. The only way I've been able to keep my list competitive is to take gak-tons of Terminators.

I do apologize for the list - I was commenting on Orock's build while trying to keep it along the lines of the OP's build. Oops...

@Aristotle:

I think you really need to go Vanilla with that kind of build. You'll get Veteran Sergeants, cheaper commanders, and cheaper basic units, resulting in a stronger list in general. In fact, the only thing uniquely Templar in your list is the 10-man squad with Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons.

I'll admit, I have a pair of 6-man Las/Plas Squads. I use them as picket squads rather than as my core troops choices. Despite the loss of infantry-based antitank, using anything other than 8+ man squads tooled for CC is detrimental to the Templar list. They are the only horde army in the game with a 3+ save. Capitalize on that.

I used to field 16-man Squads of 8 Initiates and 8 Neophytes with the obligatory Power Fist and Meltagun. Recently, I've been experimenting with both 10-man pure Initiate squads and 20-man Maxed squads. They each have their advantages and drawbacks. the 8/8 mixed squads have the advantage of shunting the initial salvo onto the Neophytes, keeping the tougher Marines alive. The 10-mans don't clutter the battlefield as much, and are a little more maneuverable and less cumbersome. Maximum size squads have the greatest hitting power, but are "slower" due to the fact that their size will have them hitting difficult terrain a LOT, and because it is difficult to bring the entire squad's hitting power to bear on a single target in close combat.

In short, Aristotle, your list is good - as a Nilla list. It doesn't match the Templar list construction at all, and using the BT codex to make a predominantly Vanilla SM build seems very contrary.

@Orock:

Your concept build is not doomed to fail, necessarily. However, taking something like Assault Terminators, which are expensive and slow, and sticking them in a huge fat points sink of a vehicle is not a winning strategy by any means. Sure, it'll hurt to get slammed by this, but we're talking about nearly 600 points of stuff being eaten up in a single entry of a 1750-1850 points list. A third of the army will be rendered useless at the unfortunate drop of a hat. Relying on such a centerpiece unit is not a good idea for any army - especially not when said army is already disadvantaged and is generally going to struggle with top-tier lists.

If you want the horde list, I'd recommend slimming down the 20-mans to 16 with 8 Inits and 8 Neophytes. This will make them somewhat more manageable in terms of occupying craptons of space on the board. If you want Terminators, that's fine. I'll say this though: If you want them to march, take shooty termies. If you deepstrike them, I'd recommend shooty over assaulty, but that's more or less discretionary. Only take even-numbered squads (6 is recommended at the 1800 level), as this will force your opponent to kill an additional model to render the squad nonscoring.

The Tornadoes are up to you as a decision. I have a pair of Multi-Melta Landspeeders, but rarely use them in favor of a pair of Attack Bikes. While they can be instakilled and dropped by S3 unlike the Speeder, they are not vehicles, meaning my opponent can't pick them out without forcing a TP test. Give them Multi-Meltas, zoom them up the flank, torch a tank, and them throw them into a shooty squad if possible. They'll tarpit an enemy unit long enough to chuck your big guns in.

As far as vehicles go, if you want anti-tank you can either take vehicle-mounted (which doesn't need to take TP tests) weapons, like the ever-favorite TL Las Predator with HB Sponsons, or you can take TONS of melta-based small arms and bombs. Vindicators are your infantry's best friend, especially with PMS, which will keep them moving up the field, warding off would-be bogger units with S10 pieplateage and line of sight blocking. Here's a rough concept you might consider:

Reclusiarch (cheapo pattern) w/ Bolt Pistol - 96
Reclusiarch (cheapo pattern) w/ Bolt Pistol - 96

6-man Terminator Squad w/ 2 Assault Cannons, Tank Hunters - 295
6-man Terminator Squad w/ 2 Assault Cannons, Tank Hunters - 295

16-man (8/8) Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 235
16-man (8/8) Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 235

Tornado w/ HB, AC - 80
Tornado w/ HB, AC - 80

Vindicator w/ PMS - 155
Vindicator w/ PMS -155

That's 1722 points, leaving you with goodness to spare for goodies like the Holy Orb of Antioch (take these if you know you'll be fighting Necrons - they are wonderful surprises against Monoliths).

That build will give you 46 sloggers with 2 support vehicles (Vindis) and 2 rapid strike picketers (Tornadoes). If you want to take it up to 2000, I'd recommend Assault Marines. They are good stuff.

Whew, that was a long post. Hope that helps.

CK

I do apreciate the feedback, but that list is illegal as it does not include the emperors champion. I wrote an alternate one up, tell me what you think.

Emperor's Champ 140
Accept any challenge

Reclusiarch 120
Jump pack, Teleport homer

7x Assault marines 194
2x Plasma Pistol, power fist, 5x storm shields

7x Assault marines 191
2x Plasma Pistol, power fist, 4x storm shields

6x initiates 117
lascannon, p.gun

6x initiates 117
lascannon, p.gun

6x initiates 117
lascannon, p.gun

Vindicator 128
smoke launchers

Vindicator 128
smoke launchers

5x Assault terminators 200
3x lightning claws, 2x Thunder hammers

5x Terminators 240
2x assault cannons

Can a vindie with power of the machine spirit still fire its ordinance? If so I would definatley have to make points for that.

I do appreciate the feedback, but that list is illegal as it does not include the emperors champion. I wrote an alternate one up, tell me what you think.

Oops...

Obviously I shouldn't write army lists at three in the morning.

Vindicators may fire one weapon that is eligible with PMS at BS 2. The fact that the weapon is a S10 AP1 Ordnance1/Large Blast Demolisher Cannon has no bearing on this. Hence the incredible usefulness of the upgrade - you must either destroy the vehicle utterly or destroy the weapon itself to deny firing, which is something it will most likely be able to do (it has to face the target it wants to shoot at anyway, so being incapable of turning with PMS is basically a moot point).

Your list is pretty shooty, with a decent mix of assault. I'd recommend dropping one of the three Las/Plas Squads to make space for Power of the Machine Spirit on your Vindicators, as well as making the 5x Assault Termies a shooty version with 2x Assault Cannons. The redundancy improves chances of success if one scatters into terrain, dies horribly before killing its intended target, etc. Plus, they'll be a heck of a lot more threatening, especially with the extra 8 rending shots at 24".

Otherwise, looks pretty good.

One quick question - how have your experiences with using Storm Shields on Assault Marines gone? I generally avoid them due to the loss of an attack, but I can see their benefits if given to only part of the squad in order to survive as a bog-down unit against MCs. Just curious.

CK

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:

I do appreciate the feedback, but that list is illegal as it does not include the emperors champion. I wrote an alternate one up, tell me what you think.

Oops...

Obviously I shouldn't write army lists at three in the morning.

Vindicators may fire one weapon that is eligible with PMS at BS 2. The fact that the weapon is a S10 AP1 Ordnance1/Large Blast Demolisher Cannon has no bearing on this. Hence the incredible usefulness of the upgrade - you must either destroy the vehicle utterly or destroy the weapon itself to deny firing, which is something it will most likely be able to do (it has to face the target it wants to shoot at anyway, so being incapable of turning with PMS is basically a moot point).

Your list is pretty shooty, with a decent mix of assault. I'd recommend dropping one of the three Las/Plas Squads to make space for Power of the Machine Spirit on your Vindicators, as well as making the 5x Assault Termies a shooty version with 2x Assault Cannons. The redundancy improves chances of success if one scatters into terrain, dies horribly before killing its intended target, etc. Plus, they'll be a heck of a lot more threatening, especially with the extra 8 rending shots at 24".

Otherwise, looks pretty good.

One quick question - how have your experiences with using Storm Shields on Assault Marines gone? I generally avoid them due to the loss of an attack, but I can see their benefits if given to only part of the squad in order to survive as a bog-down unit against MCs. Just curious.

CK

Well with the teleport homer on the chaplain they shouldnt scatter. And with a 3+ to hit anything, it gives assault termies a huge advantage. Also I play nids alot, and I find storm shields on the jump troops keeps em alive long enough to get support to em. They have alot of ways to take your save away like rending and monsterous rules.

Well, I don't know if this will help at all, but here is my basic 2000 point list:

HQ-

High Marshal w/ Terminator HQ squad [Sergeant, 2 AC, CF] (5 models total)

Chaplain w/ 3 servitors, 1 lightning claw, teleport homer, artificer armor

EC w/ the anti-psycher or 6+ cover save oath.

Elites-

Venerable Dreadnought w/ AC, Hvy Flamer, Furious Charge, drop pod, extra armor

Troops-

13 man Crusader Squad w/ 3 Neophytes, PF, Flamer, 4-ish Marines with bolters

13 man Crusader Squad w/ 3 Neophytes, PF, Meltagun, 4-ish Marines with bolters

10 man Inquisitorial Storm Troopers w/ 2 flamers (yes, I realize this taints the BT list)

Fast Attack-

Land Speader w/ AC, Hvy Bolter

Heavy Support-

Predator Annihilator w/ Hvy Bolter sponsons, and as much equipment fits

Predator Annihilator w/ LC sponsons, and as much equipment fits

Vindicator w/ all the bells and whistles


Tactics=

I have been using my HQ Terminator squad as anti-flankers with a 24" death bubble, due to the AC's. Also having the immediate leadership 10 on the board when the game starts can be very helpful. The squad is also something that your opponent will immediately have to deal with, or avoid from turn 1.

I place the Chaplain in with one of the Crusader Squads, bolstering their ability in CC. I place in the EC with the other Crusader squad.

I usually place my tanks in a loose formation, with my troops in close support. The Crusader squads either trail behind the tanks as they advance, or intermingle in the tank formation, if a "sit and shoot" tactic is more rational (say against a swarm of Nids). I like to use the Storm Troopers as a dispensable fire base, advancing where necessary, but ultimately protecting a tank's rear armor, or conserving the charge for one of my Crusader squads.

I obviously use the Land Speeder to zoom up a flank and frag something or someone that is rather bothersome, for example a Basilisk or some Obliterators.

I use my Dreadnought to either deepstrike behind enemy lines, or walk my troops up the field. I usually deepstrike the dreadnought to hopefully target some bothersome Carnifex or HQ squad. Walking it up the field helps solidify the large formation moving across the field.

I think in the end, advancing a large, well organized group of tanks with close anti-CC support will make for great games.