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Can Ahriman use the same psychic power three times in a row? Nothing seems to forbid it, but it doesn't feel right. 9 BS 5 Str 4 AP3 shots leave a mark!

Zoned

Zoned wrote:... Nothing seems to forbid it...

That's not the way rules work. You have to find a rule that allows it.

Ahriman can use up to three psychic powers, not one power three times.

Nurglitch wrote:Ahriman can use up to three psychic powers, not one power three times.

I need to check out Ahry's rules then, as the majority of people I've seen / read about using him use 3x BoC, 3x DB, 3x GoC ...

- Salvage

After careful reading of the rules, I would say Ahriman cannot cast the same power multiple times for the following reason:

codex CSM, p51

"...and in addition, it allows Ahriman to make up to three Psychic tests in the same turn...It even allows him to use several powers that counts as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase..."

The bit that stops him is the "several powers" part from p.51. If he casts Doombolt three times, has he cast "several powers?" I would say no.

As an analogy, if I pick up a pencil three times, have I picked up 1 pencil or several pencils? Clearly, the answer is one.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Zoned

You are correct. In logic this is known as the type/token distinction. Psychic powers are types, i.e.: Winds of Chaos, Warptime, etc. Casting psychic powers are tokens of those types.

I disagree. He is allowed to make three psychic tests, while being able to make three psychic tests "even allows him to use several powers that counts as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase" the ability is simply to make three psychic tests and even allows him to make several shooting powers. There is no indication that this would be a token system as opposed to simply making three psychic tests (in whatever order and combination).

Ghaz wrote:

Zoned wrote:... Nothing seems to forbid it...

That's not the way rules work. You have to find a rule that allows it.

It's very simple, his special rules allow it.

Question, Can Ahriman use Three psychic powers in the same turn?
Correct "it allows Ahriman to make upto three psychic tests in the same turn"

Question, can these all be the same psychic power?
Answer, does the above rule limit what power he can choose from his list? No, he can cast any of them if allowed to. If you say that he cannot cast the same one three times then you are saying he cannot cast a psychic power at all, because he cannot pick the power he wants to use.


Question, can Ahriman use Three psychic powers in a turn that count as a shooting attack?
Answer, Yes. The "allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase" rule is there so he may do so. If that rule was not there, he would unable to do so because an infantry model can only shoot one weapon per turn normally.

His rules do no allow him to use the same power. Here's why:

A Chaos Sorcerer can normally only have 1 power (unless they have a familiar.)
A Chaos Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch may take an additional power and use it in the same turn, provided they aren't both shooting attacks.
Ahriman has several powers, and may use "several powers that counts as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase."

Does casting Doombolt three times count as using "several powers?" No, he has used one power three times, just as picking up the same pencil three times does not count as picking up several pencils.

Therefore, he may not use the same power repeatedly in the same phase.

Pity, though I still plan on using him in my Chaos army.

Zoned

Zoned wrote:His rules do no allow him to use the same power. Here's why:

A Chaos Sorcerer can normally only have 1 power (unless they have a familiar.)
A Chaos Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch may take an additional power and use it in the same turn, provided they aren't both shooting attacks.
Ahriman has several powers, and may use "several powers that counts as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase."

Does casting Doombolt three times count as using "several powers?" No, he has used one power three times, just as picking up the same pencil three times does not count as picking up several pencils.

Therefore, he may not use the same power repeatedly in the same phase.

Pity, though I still plan on using him in my Chaos army.

Zoned

Nope, his special rule allows him to make multiple psychic tests, which can also be several shooting powers. "even allows him to use several powers that counts as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase" is not the same as "even allows him to use several different powers that counts as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase". Regular sorcerers are not able to fire twice with the same power (even Tzeentch ones) due to the restriction on only being able to fire once in the shooting phase.

I still don't understand why people equate the purchasing of a psychic power to be the same as purchasing multiple uses like scrolls in RPGs or regular weapons from the armory (which even a Chaos dreadnaught has the ability to fire twice in a single round when raged so it is not a physical limit).

To snoogums:

I agree that he can make multiple psychic tests. But as you wrote:

"his special rule allows him to make multiple psychic tests, which can also be several shooting powers"

Ask yourself, does casting Doombolt 3 times count as casting several shooting powers or one shooting power 3 times?

Does picking up a pencil 3 times count as picking up several pencils or one pencil?

Maybe I'm wrong and my analogy is poor in some way. But no one has shown me so. Can you?

Zoned

Page 88 of the CSM codex, under 'Psychic Powers':

"A psyker may only attempt to use one psychic power per turn. The only exception to this is a model with the Mark of Tzeentch, which can attempt to use up to two psychic powers per player turn (but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon)"

Reading Ahrimans entry, I would say that he can make up to 3 "shooting" type psychic attacks, using three different abilities ( ie: doombolt, bolt of change, winds of change), and NOT the same one 3X.

My reasoning? "like is like". The Eldar Farseer can have up to 4 psychic powers. With the Spirit Stone upgrade, he can use 2 in a turn, but "A Farseer cannot use the same psychic power twice in the same turn." (Eldar Codex, pg. 26)

Zoned wrote:To snoogums:

I agree that he can make multiple psychic tests. But as you wrote:

"his special rule allows him to make multiple psychic tests, which can also be several shooting powers"

Ask yourself, does casting Doombolt 3 times count as casting several shooting powers or one shooting power 3 times?

The bit that stops him is the "several powers" part from p.51. If he casts Doombolt three times, has he cast "several powers?" I would say no.

Casting doom bolt 3 times counts as several shooting attacks, as a psychic attack follows every single shooting rule unless it says otherwise.

If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.
Does it say he may cast several different powers? Nope.

From the Ahriman entry under 'The Black Staff'

"It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase."

"use several powers"......

several
1 a: separate or distinct from one another b (1): individually owned or controlled : exclusive — compare common (2): of or relating separately to each individual involved c: being separate and distinctive : respective <specialists in their several fields>
2 a: more than one; b: more than two but fewer than many <moved several inches> cchiefly dialect : being a great many

Does picking up a pencil three times count as picking up several pencils? No.
Does casting Doombolt three times count as using "several powers?" No.
Casting Doombolt three times means using one power several times, which is different than using several powers.

Zoned? I think we are debating the same side, no? I am agreeing with you that he would NOT be able to use the same power 3X

Laserbait wrote:My reasoning? "like is like". The Eldar Farseer can have up to 4 psychic powers. With the Spirit Stone upgrade, he can use 2 in a turn, but "A Farseer cannot use the same psychic power twice in the same turn." (Eldar Codex, pg. 26)

That's the Eldar codex, not the Chaos codex.

From the Ahriman entry under 'The Black Staff'

"It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase."

"use several powers"......

several
1 a: separate or distinct from one another b (1): individually owned or controlled : exclusive — compare common (2): of or relating separately to each individual involved c: being separate and distinctive : respective <specialists in their several fields>
2 a: more than one; b: more than two but fewer than many <moved several inches> cchiefly dialect : being a great many

I'm going to go with definition 2 since that is common usage in my experience, looks like you are working with the same. How does that work in context?

In psychic powers it gives the restriction that you may only use one shooting power per turn because of the shooting restriction that a model can only fire one per turn. The black staff bypasses this, and in addition also allows the multiple shooting powers but it does not limit him to distinct powers unless you go with definition part 1. At that point you have to decide if there has to be a self imposed restriction on being able to use a power a single time in a turn since they do not have to be automatically distinct, so you could use a power more than once in a turn. As an aside monstrous Tzeentch creatures that can cast psychic powers would logically be able to use two powers since the reason for the restriction is false.

Casting Doombolt three times is casting several powers: Doombolt, Doombolt, Doombolt.

And for the guy with the pencil fetish: Your analogy is poor, because the act of picking up the pencil is the action of the power, the pencil is the power. The act of picking up the pencil three times is the act of casting three times. So if you picked up three number 2 pencils instead of a number two and a number four pencil you still picked up three pencils. The choice of powers is what pencils you have available to pick up. The staff allows you to pick up multiple pencils, and even several shooting pencils.

Actually, definition 1 and 2 would apply.

Separate and distinct powers, more than one, being used in the same player turn.

Laserbait wrote:Actually, definition 1 and 2 would apply.

Separate and distinct powers, more than one, being used in the same player turn.

Why would they both apply? Not all definitions are always used in word usage, they usually confer different meanings:
Please use all 32 definitions of 'powers' as it applies to this rule to prove your point that both parts are automatically applicable:

pow·er /?pa??r/ –noun

1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.
2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.
3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.
4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.
5. political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government.
6. legal ability, capacity, or authority: the power of attorney.
7. delegated authority; authority granted to a person or persons in a particular office or capacity: the powers of the president.
8. a document or written statement conferring legal authority.
9. a person or thing that possesses or exercises authority or influence.
10. a state or nation having international authority or influence: The great powers held an international conference.
11. a military or naval force: The Spanish Armada was a mighty power.
12. Often, powers. a deity; divinity: the heavenly powers.
13. powers, Theology. an order of angels. Compare angel (def. 1).
14. Dialect. a large number or amount: There's a power of good eatin' at the church social.
15. Physics.
a. work done or energy transferred per unit of time. Symbol: P
b. the time rate of doing work.
16. mechanical energy as distinguished from hand labor: a loom driven by power.
17. a particular form of mechanical or physical energy: hydroelectric power.
18. energy, force, or momentum: The door slammed shut, seemingly under its own power.
19. Mathematics.
a. the product obtained by multiplying a quantity by itself one or more times: The third power of 2 is 8.
b. (of a number x) a number whose logarithm is a times the logarithm of x (and is called the ath power of x). Symbolically, y =xa is a number that satisfies the equation log y = a log x.
c. the exponent of an expression, as a in xa.
d. cardinal number (def. 2).
20. Optics.
a. the magnifying capacity of a microscope, telescope, etc., expressed as the ratio of the diameter of the image to the diameter of the object. Compare magnification (def. 2).
b. the reciprocal of the focal length of a lens.
–verb (used with object)
21. to supply with electricity or other means of power: Atomic energy powers the new submarines.
22. to give power to; make powerful: An outstanding quarterback powered the team in its upset victory.
23. to inspire; spur; sustain: A strong faith in divine goodness powers his life.
24. (of a fuel, engine, or any source able to do work) to supply force to operate (a machine): An electric motor powers this drill.
25. to drive or push by applying power: She powered the car expertly up the winding mountain road.
–adjective
26. operated or driven by a motor or electricity: a power mower; power tools.
27. power-assisted: His new car has power brakes and power windows.
28. conducting electricity: a power cable.
29. Informal. expressing or exerting power; characteristic of those having authority or influence: to host a power lunch.
—Verb phrases
30. power down, Computers. to shut off.
31. power up, Computers. to turn on.
—Idiom
32. the powers that be, those in supreme command; the authorities: The decision is in the hands of the powers that be.

I agree that not all definitions of a word are applicable at the same time. However, in this case, they do.

Look at it this way:
Ahriman is already able to "fire" his powers 3X. Twice more than any other psychic in the game, no?
He has 3 DIFFERENT shooting powers, yes?
Why make an issue out of it?

Or, put another way, suppose a model other than Ahriman could do the same, and had Lash of Submission in his power roster. Would you accept that the model could use Lash 3X in a turn? Would you be willing to play against that model?

Laserbait wrote:I agree that not all definitions of a word are applicable at the same time. However, in this case, they do.

Look at it this way:
Ahriman is already able to "fire" his powers 3X. Twice more than any other psychic in the game, no?
He has 3 DIFFERENT shooting powers, yes?
Why make an issue out of it?

Or, put another way, suppose a model other than Ahriman could do the same, and had Lash of Submission in his power roster. Would you accept that the model could use Lash 3X in a turn? Would you be willing to play against that model?

I would happily play against that model if that was the case as that is how I read the rules. Just because it may make him uber powerful (as a special character is supposed to be) doesn't mean it is somehow wrong. I would allow Tzeentch Sorcerers to use Gift of Chaos twice if they purchased it.

Editted: So then we are back to my statement that "Like is Like".
If the Eldar cannot use the same power twice in a turn, and there is no rule in the CSM codex that says sorcerers can use the same power twice, why would you assume they can?
Tigurius of the Ultramarines can use "Any two powers..."

So, unless there is a rule that states a single power may be used multiple times in a turn, I stand by my position.

You have a different concept. So be it.
However, what if your opponent across the table thinks differently about than you do? How would you decide the issue?

davidson wrote:If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.

No. He only cast one power multiple times. He did not use 'several powers', only one power.

Ghaz wrote:

davidson wrote:If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.

No. He only cast one power multiple times. He did not use 'several powers', only one power.

Doesn't mater.

"it allows Ahriman to make upto three psychic tests in the same turn" period. Can he cast 3 powers in the same turn? Yes, can I say I'm casting bolt of change 3 times? Yes.

The only limit of this? "(one of these may be to use his special ablity of his force weapon) If there was any other limit it would have been said right there.


The "use several powers" rule is there so he can "shoot" 3 times in a turn.

Even for powers that do not count as shooting attacks his "three pyshic tests in the same turn" can cast other things more than once that do not count as shooting attacks. Like Gift of Chaos and Warp Time.

There is nothing there that says you cannot gift of chaos 3 times in the same turn, that easily overrides the double meaning word several. It is clearly RAI and RAW.

Laserbait:

If the Eldar cannot use the same power twice in a turn, and there is no rule in the CSM codex that says sorcerers can use the same power twice, why would you assume they can?

Well, the entry for Spirit Stones does specifically state that you may not use the same power twice, so that's not too relevant either way.

Ghaz wrote:

davidson wrote:If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.

No. He only cast one power multiple times. He did not use 'several powers', only one power.

"It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase."

This reads like an example, not a limitation. The thing everyone seems to be overlooking in their rush to define "several" is the word "even". It doesn't say "this ONLY allows him to use several" it says "even...several." It is not an exclusive statement, so no matter what 'several' means, this rule alone will not stop him from using the same power more than once unless there is a more general game rule stating that the same power cannot be used more than once in a phase/turn. Is there any such rule?

Trent wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

davidson wrote:If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.

No. He only cast one power multiple times. He did not use 'several powers', only one power.

"It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase."

This reads like an example, not a limitation. The thing everyone seems to be overlooking in their rush to define "several" is the word "even". It doesn't say "this ONLY allows him to use several" it says "even...several." It is not an exclusive statement, so no matter what 'several' means, this rule alone will not stop him from using the same power more than once unless there is a more general game rule stating that the same power cannot be used more than once in a phase/turn. Is there any such rule?

I'm in agreement with you obviously.

Even if it was a limitation as the other side argues, you could still do three Winds of Chaos to make three spawn a turn since it is not a shooting power and it only has you do "several shooting powers" where as three Winds of Chaos would just require three psychic tests. Why would they restrict the shooting powers to distinctly different ones and not WoC? Because they did not, they worded it as definition 2: multiple powers, not multiple distinct powers. After the Blood Angels and the Eldar codex it is clear that if they wanted a special charicter to be limited in the number of castings of each power they would have worded it as such. The counter argument replies on an uncommon usage of "several" in a clarifying sentence about the ability to take multiple psychic tests. Using one Doom Bolt and two Bolts of Change would even satisfy the several requiring more than one distinct power. Hopefully a FAQ will address this by 2009.

I''ll also note that the previous version of Tzeentch allowed for multiple castings of the same power through thralls, so the ability to only cast a power once per round has not been an absolute. As expensive as Ahriman is, three Bolts of Change or 3 Doombolts are not overpowering.

davidson wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

davidson wrote:If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.

No. He only cast one power multiple times. He did not use 'several powers', only one power.

Doesn't mater.

"it allows Ahriman to make upto three psychic tests in the same turn" period. Can he cast 3 powers in the same turn? Yes, can I say I'm casting bolt of change 3 times? Yes.

The only limit of this? "(one of these may be to use his special ablity of his force weapon) If there was any other limit it would have been said right there.


The "use several powers" rule is there so he can "shoot" 3 times in a turn.

Even for powers that do not count as shooting attacks his "three pyshic tests in the same turn" can cast other things more than once that do not count as shooting attacks. Like Gift of Chaos and Warp Time.

There is nothing there that says you cannot gift of chaos 3 times in the same turn, that easily overrides the double meaning word several. It is clearly RAI and RAW.

Yes, it does matter. Just because you're allowed to take multiple psychic tests in a turn is inconsequential. You could be permitted to take all the psychic tests that you want, but if you only have one psychic power and if you're not allowed to use that power more than once then you can only use that power once. Your entire argument is flawed because you're equating 'psychic test' with 'psychic power'. They are NOT the same thing. So it does not matter how many 'psychic tests' Ahriman can take, you must find a rule that specifically allows multiple uses of the same power.

Ghaz wrote: you must find a rule that specifically allows multiple uses of the same power.

I think in this case you are wrong, Ghaz. His rule lets him do this by activating multiple powers in one turn. That is, UNLESS there is a general rule stating that a model can't use the same power more than once.

He can use psychic powers more than one time per phase. His specific rule admittedly doesn't clearly allow him to use the same power more than once per turn, but it doesn't need to specifically allow that exception unless there is a general rule against it for it to be an exception to.

The "several" argument is somewhat interesting, but immaterial unless such a general rule exists.

Ghaz wrote:If he cast 3 doom bolts did he cast several powers? Yes.
Yes, it does matter. Just because you're allowed to take multiple psychic tests in a turn is inconsequential. You could be permitted to take all the psychic tests that you want, but if you only have one psychic power and if you're not allowed to use that power more than once then you can only use that power once. Your entire argument is flawed because you're equating 'psychic test' with 'psychic power'. They are NOT the same thing. So it does not matter how many 'psychic tests' Ahriman can take, you must find a rule that specifically allows multiple uses of the same power.

"In order to use one of his powers the Pysker must make a Pyshic test" 40k main rule book.
My aurgment is not flawed but is in fact solid as stone. In order to use a psychic power you must make a psychic test.

There is no restriction on being able to use the same power only once in the 40k mail rule book.
The only one mentioned at all in the Chaos book is that Models with the mark of Tzerentch "which can attempt to use upto two psychic powers per player turn (but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon, a models can only fire one weapon per shooting phase)
Even they could double chaos spawn or double wind of chaos. A pratical example would be if the player failed a warp time test they may wish to try again. And that Ahriman may only use his force weapon ability once.

Can Ahirman attempt to cast three psychic tests per turn? Yes
Can the power picked on a successful be anything you want from his list while following the rules for in what turn phase they can be cast? Yes
Is there anything that even hints that he could not cast doom bolt 3 times? No but there his special rule that supports it and totaly allows it.

Prove me wrong. RAW doesn't say anything about it but only supports Ahriman casting 3 psychic tests and choosing to use doom bolts in the same shooting phase.