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AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHH!!!

It's not freaking rocket science, people.

He can't. Period. As much as I'd like for him to, since I play chaos...

HE.
CAN.
NOT.

Why?
Because 40K is a game of permissions. It gives him permission to cast "several POWERS" not "several TIMES."


Here's the deal.

The rules say you can't move & fire a heavy weapon in the same turn. Right?
Can an obliterator?

The rules say you can't fire a rapid fire weapon and assault.
Can a Thousand Son?

The rules say you can only move in the movement phase.
Can you charge?

The answers are Yes to all 3... because there are rules that SPECIFICALLY ALLOW IT. THEY SAY IT SPECIFICALLY.


Now... Look at Ahriman's special rule for his staff. Look at the wording.

It says he can make 3 tests per turn (I think we all agree that several = 3... Shoot... Let's say 2 or 3) and that he may "even use several" that count as shooting (I think we agree on this, as well).

The problem is in the interpretation.

One side is reading the text. The other side is interpreting it.
Interpreting it when you can read it "as is" is where you're making your mistake.

The text as INTERPRETED says he can cast doombolt multiple times because, essentially, multiple = several.
The problem with that logic is that you're using a word from the text and not a term (or idea) from it.
The term (or idea) is "several powers" not "several times."

If I tell you that same joke 3 times in a row, did I tell you several jokes? No. I told you ONE joke several times.
If a schoolyard bully beats a kid up Monday, again on Tuesday, and a thrid time on Friday, did he beat up several kids, or one kid several times?
If I use DOOMBOLT 3 times in a row, did I use several powers OR did I use ONE power several times?

If you're here to discuss this REASONABLY, you have to admit that "Doombolt, Doombolt, Doombolt" is one power several times and NOT several powers. To be several powers, each would have to be its' own, distinct power.

Here's the deal. What it boils down to is that you're ignoring the parts of the rulebook and of people's posts that you can't deny. Either that, or you say their example doesn't matter because you're discussing THIS aspect and they're discussing THAT aspect (when, in fact, it is the WHOLE TEXT that applies, not one aspect or the other). If you take text out of context, then you invalidate your position.

It says (loose quote), "he can even use several powers that count as shooting..."

The word "even" is of no consequence in this. It isn't referring to WHAT powers he can use. It is exclaiming that he can break the "one shooting power" rule.

The key idea here is "several powers." Some of us are READING it and others are INTERPRETING IT, as I said.
Until those who are INTERPRETING it begin to READ it, this debate will NOT be closed short of a FAQ or boredom.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:If you're here to discuss this REASONABLY, you have to admit that "Doombolt, Doombolt, Doombolt" is one power several times and NOT several powers. To be several powers, each would have to be its' own, distinct power.

Question:

I've got three squads of Thousand Sons, each led by a Sorcerer.

Each Sorcerer casts Doom Bolt in the same shooting phase, that is the only psychic powers that were used.

Are you saying that the statement "My army cast several powers last turn" is false because I used the same power each time?

MagickalMemories wrote:AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHH!!!

Because 40K is a game of permissions. It gives him permission to cast "several POWERS" not "several TIMES."

It's very very simple, as the rules are written can he cast Gift of Chaos 3 times. NOTE that Gift of Chaos is not a shooting attack.
Given that fact, it sharply leads to the meaning of several meaning he can cast the same power several times.

He has permission to make three psychic tests per turn, it does not limit him to what powers he can then choose to use. The only one limited is the force weapon. Hence, he has permission to not only cast Gift of Chaos three times per turn, or Warp Time 3 times per turn and, due to his special rule of being able to cast several powers that count as shooting attacks he has permission to cast 3 doom bolts. As he used several powers that several powers. Infact each cast of doom bolt is it's own weapon. It's not Doom bolt assault 3. It's doom bolt, doom bolt, doom bolt.

He used several powers that count as firing a weapon.


The burden of proof is met, he has permission via raw.

End of story.

Here's some questions for someone with the relevant texts in front of them:

Is there an actual rule anywhere that a model can't use the same power more than once per turn, or are most models restricted simply by only being able to use one power per turn anyway?

How many non-shooting powers does Ahirman have access to?

MagickalMemories wrote: The word "even" is of no consequence in this. It isn't referring to WHAT powers he can use. It is exclaiming that he can break the "one shooting power" rule.

The key idea here is "several powers." Some of us are READING it and others are INTERPRETING IT, as I said.
Until those who are INTERPRETING it begin to READ it, this debate will NOT be closed short of a FAQ or boredom.

I see that you've decided for us what "even" means in this case. I remain unconvinced, though the answers to the questions above may help your argument.

However, YOUR ranting and SCREAMING doesn't HELP your ARGUMENT any, just fyi.

Trent wrote:Here's some questions for someone with the relevant texts in front of them:

Is there an actual rule anywhere that a model can't use the same power more than once per turn, or are most models restricted simply by only being able to use one power per turn anyway?

How many non-shooting powers does Ahirman have access to?

The Eldar rules for Eldrad say "If eldrad is not in an assault it can allow eldrad to use a thrid pyshic power per turn, which may be a spyshic power he has already used that turn"

But that's the eldar book and not the chaos book.

There is nothing in the main rule book about it.

He has two non shooting powers, Gift of Chaos, Warp Time... I guess you could say his force weapon is as well.
Also in his rules (one of these may be used to use the special ability of his force weapon). I believe I already typed out the full rule above in the thread if you wish to read it.




The rules for Mark of Tzeentch say s"a Pysker may only attempt to use one pyshic power per turn. The only exception to this is a model with the mark of tzeencht, which can attempt to use upto two psychic powers per turn (but not tow powers that both count as firing a weapon, as models can only fire one weapon per shooting phase)

I guess via RAW Ahriman might not even cast a 3rd power... but the rule is wrong in that a daemon prince with mark of Tzeentch could fire two weapons per turn. But that's something maybe best left for another thread about what takes priority the rules for Mark of Tzeencth that he has or his special rules for allowing three tests per turn.



And Since Ahriman is 250 points... being able to cast 3 powers of the same type per turn is not just RAW it's RAI.

snooggums wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:If you're here to discuss this REASONABLY, you have to admit that "Doombolt, Doombolt, Doombolt" is one power several times and NOT several powers. To be several powers, each would have to be its' own, distinct power.

Question:

I've got three squads of Thousand Sons, each led by a Sorcerer.

Each Sorcerer casts Doom Bolt in the same shooting phase, that is the only psychic powers that were used.

Are you saying that the statement "My army cast several powers last turn" is false because I used the same power each time?

Yes. I am.
Your army didn't cast SEVERAL powers. it cast ONE power SEVERAL TIMES.

Now, I wouldn't correct your grammar in a game. In real life, I couldn't care less. it would, technically, be incorrect, however.


Eric

Trent wrote:However, YOUR ranting and SCREAMING doesn't HELP your ARGUMENT any, just fyi.

In most circles, capitalizing one or 2 words is understood as emphasis on that/those words. Not picking out particular words from a sentence and screaming them.
I say "most" but, in fact, you're the first person to ever say that to me.

As for the extended AARRGGHH... Certain things are meant humorously. Have you ever been in a friendly, though oppositional, discussion (that wasn't getting anywhere because nobody would give an iota on either side) where you did that? You know, kind of went "AARGH. Let me try to explain it to you THIS way..."

If not, you're among the few.

Thanks for the though. That was nice.

Eric

davidson wrote:
The rules for Mark of Tzeentch say s"a Pysker may only attempt to use one pyshic power per turn. The only exception to this is a model with the mark of tzeencht, which can attempt to use upto two psychic powers per turn (but not tow powers that both count as firing a weapon, as models can only fire one weapon per shooting phase)

I guess what it comes down to RAW-wise, is whether two activations of the same power are "two powers" or "one power twice", which I think is an unwinnable argument because the english language itself isn't that accurate, let alone anything GW writes.

I know people will give 1097 more examples about pencils telling jokes about beating up kids or whatever, but examples can go both ways. If I run all the way around a track twice, did I run two laps, or the same lap twice? Hmm.... Maybe a psychic power is an event more like a lap, as opposed to an object like a pencil. Who knows? I'm sure the dictionary probably won't help us with that one.

It's very very simple, as the rules are written can he cast Gift of Chaos 3 times. NOTE that Gift of Chaos is not a shooting attack.
Given that fact, it sharply leads to the meaning of several meaning he can cast the same power several times.

No. He can't.
Unless specifically stated in the unit/psykers rule text, they can NOT use one power multiple times.

That IS in the rules somewhere... BGB, I think.

I WILL look up the rule tonight and quote the text, verbatim, with a page number for reference.
I WON'T quote rules for any model aside from Ahriman, because we're only discussing Ahriman.


Eric

P.S. I WISH I could use my Ahriman that way. I'd love it. In fact, until we looked something up in the rules and came across the psyker rules (which set us straight), that's how we USED to play him in our group.

MagickalMemories wrote:

snooggums wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:If you're here to discuss this REASONABLY, you have to admit that "Doombolt, Doombolt, Doombolt" is one power several times and NOT several powers. To be several powers, each would have to be its' own, distinct power.

Question:

I've got three squads of Thousand Sons, each led by a Sorcerer.

Each Sorcerer casts Doom Bolt in the same shooting phase, that is the only psychic powers that were used.

Are you saying that the statement "My army cast several powers last turn" is false because I used the same power each time?

Yes. I am.
Your army didn't cast SEVERAL powers. it cast ONE power SEVERAL TIMES.

Now, I wouldn't correct your grammar in a game. In real life, I couldn't care less. it would, technically, be incorrect, however.


Eric

So if I went to the store an bought several fruit, and it turned out I had three apples you would say that I did not have 'several fruit'? You are saying that several always means in every circumstance multiple distinct items as opposed to being a seperate definition ie: definition 2:a) one or more b)two or more? How come 'powers' doesn't have to fit all 32 definitions in every usage?

MagickalMemories wrote:

It's very very simple, as the rules are written can he cast Gift of Chaos 3 times. NOTE that Gift of Chaos is not a shooting attack.
Given that fact, it sharply leads to the meaning of several meaning he can cast the same power several times.

No. He can't.
Unless specifically stated in the unit/psykers rule text, they can NOT use one power multiple times.

That IS in the rules somewhere... BGB, I think.

Nope that is not the rule. The rule you are thinking about is that a pyschic power counts as a shooting attack unless otherwise specified.
If Ahriman did not have his special rule for allowing him to use three shooting attacks *heck lets even say two different ones* He could only shoot/use a power that was a shooting attack.

Have fun looking for it though.. but please don't try to put up such a fuss when you don't even have the books infront of you.

I'll just let my opponent cast Doombolt three times if he wants. Just like I'll cast Mind War twice with Eldrad's staff...

"I used several tools to modify & sculpt my model"

Which of the following statements is an accurate description of the above sentence?

"I used a hobby knife, file, and scribing tool to modify & sculpt my model"
"I used a hobby knife, hobby knife, hobby knife to modify and sculpt my model"

I'm not sure I get this. The argument seems to be on the definition of several - seems a little nit-picky based on the dictionary and common usage.

"I cast several doombolts" and "I cast doombolt several times" both seem to be correct usages. The first seems to fit in the wording of the rules for Ahriman - the rule is just pointing out that not only can you take 3 psychic tests, but those 3 psychic tests can even be for multiple shooting powers. I don't think they meant to make it a restriction on the re-use of doombolt or something else. Otherwise it would mean he could use non-shooting powers repeatedly, but not shooting powers. Of course, this is GW...maybe thats exactly what they wanted. But it doesn't appear to me that of the many usages and definitons of several that is is obviously restricting you to one use of doombolt.

There doesn't appear to be any rule in the BGB against re-using a psychic power more than once either. And the fact that they put a specific clause in the eldar codex against using the same power twice would also indicate that there is no general rule against it.

So...unless it is FAQ'd, I don't think the "several" means "several different" really holds water. But I think it's going to cause arguments unless it is FAQ'd.

read the entry for chaos sorcerers. It specifically limits them to ONE shooting type sorcerous attack.

And, if GW had included the sentence: "Ahriman may even use a specific power more than once", this would not be an arguement.

As to someone who said my Eldar reference was irrelevant,I put forth that it is.
In the Eldrad entry under his Staff, it specifically indicates "... which may be a psychic power he has already used that turn". Why make this distinction if multiple uses of the same power is generally accepted?

My reference to Tigurius (SM codex) indicates that he can use "Any 2 powers" further indicating that one power may not be used more than once by a single model in the same turn. UNLESS...... that power or character has a specific rule indicating otherwise.

IMO, Ahrimans entry does NOT allow him to use the same SHOOTING power more than once.


Gods, I feel like I'm back in court............

I think the reason it mentions that Eldrad's staff allows him to re-use a power for power #3 is because the wargear that allows him to cast power #2 specifically mentions that you can't re-cast a power (see the spirit stones entry for farseers). Admittedly the reading could just mean that farseers in general cannot re-use powers, and it has nothing to do wth spirit stones themselves...but that would just lend more credence to the idea that some units can re-use powers, and that there is no BBB rule against it.

So we have items in the Eldar book that say different things - one that feels it needs to specify that you can't re-use a power, and one that explicitly says you can. Like I said, I think the rule for the staff is written because farseers have a rule saying they cannot use the same power twice...not because in general you cannot use the same power twice.

Tigurius's rule would also imply that there is no general rule against it, so they felt the need to say he can use any two powers, as opposed to just take multiple psychic tests.

But...I understand your position. I think it is confusing because of the way they wrote the second clause about shooting powers. I just don't agree that every definition of several means that he cannot use the same power twice...and due to this there will be arguments, since at least one definition or usage of several, to me, would allow him to use the same shooting power twice.

Man I hate the rules sometimes, they are so poorly written and so slow to be FAQ'd.

Laserbait wrote:"I used several tools to modify & sculpt my model"

Which of the following statements is an accurate description of the above sentence?

"I used a hobby knife, file, and scribing tool to modify & sculpt my model"
"I used a hobby knife, hobby knife, hobby knife to modify and sculpt my model"

Both if you are talking about two knives and not naming the same. Two hobby knives would count as two separate items. If you used three identical knives (same manufacturer/model/sharpness etc) you could say you used several tools/knives/instruments or whatever because you used more than one, or more commonly used in English, more than two tools/knives/instruments. Just like if you used several pencils to write your poem, even if they are all yellow number 2 pencils of the same make.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

I'm just glad I won't find myself opposite you on a gaming table.


Happy gaming.

Laserbait wrote:read the entry for chaos sorcerers. It specifically limits them to ONE shooting type sorcerous attack.
.

It limits sorcerers to one shooting power on the condition that a model can only fire one weapon per shooting phase. The rest of your blather has nothing to do with the Chaos Codex as some special characters have clarifying restrictions or allowances like can use multiple times or have restrictions such as Mephiston being able to use all his powers once and the force weapon in a single turn. Their special rules do not have an effect on Ahriman since he has his own special rule, the ability to make multiple psychic tests.

Laserbait wrote:whatever snoogums.

Altho I do beleive to are being deliberately obdurate in your claims.

Happy gaming.

I'm not, I am completely serious.

Apologies for that. After I submitted it, it seemed harsh, so I editted it.


I really, really need to remember to use the preview function..........

snooggums wrote:So if I went to the store an bought several fruit, and it turned out I had three apples you would say that I did not have 'several fruit'? You are saying that several always means in every circumstance multiple distinct items as opposed to being a seperate definition ie: definition 2:a) one or more b)two or more? How come 'powers' doesn't have to fit all 32 definitions in every usage?

Did you purchase the psychic power multiple times? No, you did not. Therefore a more appropriate analogy would be you went to the store and purchased ONE apple and you're now trying to claim that you have several apples because you cut it into multiple pieces.

It does not matter how many psychic tests you can make in a single turn if you can only use a psychic power once per turn. So far no one has provided an iota of proof that a model can use a psychic power more than once in a single turn.

Ghaz wrote:
It does not matter how many psychic tests you can make in a single turn if you can only use a psychic power once per turn. So far no one has provided an iota of proof that a model can use a psychic power more than once in a single turn.

I see you didn't even read the thread, try again. Someone quoted the rules for a model that can use a psychic power more than once in a single turn. Heck it says he can use a power three times in plain english. I'll give you a hint, it's not even in the chaos codex. I've already proven that Ahriman can cast Gift of Chaos three times in the same phase with no issue at all.

Stop with the analogies people, it just clutters things up. Unless it's written in a rule book, it doesn't belong in a rule debate.

Guys, the part you are missing is the reference to multiple powers. It says 'several powers', right? Look in the parantheses where it then goes on to say 'all'.

You get to use multiple shooty powers, but you aren't given permission to use multiples of the same one.

That's how the English reads. You can 'interprete' it all you want, but it's still based on English and nowhere is there a presumption of single powers several TIMES, it's multiple powers ALL allowed once even if they are SHOOTING powers (an exception made to the 40K rules else you could not use multiple shooting powers).

And in 2011, the FAQ will clarify what I just said.

WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT RAW:

Ahriman costs 250 points. If my opponent took him with the understanding that he can slam out 3x bolt of change, 3x doombolt, 3x wind of chaos or 3x gift of chaos a turn - frankly a very cool ability, and really all he's got going for 250 points - I would let him/her play it that way.

But I'm crazy and like to think Chaos (& Tzeentch in particular) still has some tzap left in it.

- Salvage

Ghaz wrote:

snooggums wrote:So if I went to the store an bought several fruit, and it turned out I had three apples you would say that I did not have 'several fruit'? You are saying that several always means in every circumstance multiple distinct items as opposed to being a seperate definition ie: definition 2:a) one or more b)two or more? How come 'powers' doesn't have to fit all 32 definitions in every usage?

Did you purchase the psychic power multiple times? No, you did not. Therefore a more appropriate analogy would be you went to the store and purchased ONE apple and you're now trying to claim that you have several apples because you cut it into multiple pieces.

It does not matter how many psychic tests you can make in a single turn if you can only use a psychic power once per turn. So far no one has provided an iota of proof that a model can use a psychic power more than once in a single turn.

Why do you insist that there is a restriction on how many times a round a power can be cast in general? Why isn't it a per game restriction? Why not a per player turn restriction? Why have you settled on once per turn?

Purchasing a psychic power gives you the ability to cast that power. Eldar have rules for how many of each powers they purchase can be used a turn for each model type. Other psykers have rules on how many they can cast per unit of game time (Mephistons rules are different than Sorcers which are different from Librarians which are different from etc) in their respective codexes. The army specific rules tell you how many powers you can use a turn.

Sorcerers can cast one power per turn because of the limit and can only cast one shooting power even if they can normally do two as a model is restricted to a single shooting attack in the shooting phase (and is written conditionally). Tzeentch Sorcers can purchase and make two powers in a turn but are still restricted on the shooting powers because thy do not have an exception to the Sorcerer specific rule.

Ahriman has an exception, he can make three psychic tests which are used to cast powers, which even allows him to use multiple shooting attack powers (an exception to the general rule).

Stelek wrote:Guys, the part you are missing is the reference to multiple powers. It says 'several powers', right? Look in the parantheses where it then goes on to say 'all'.

"(he must target the same unit with all of them, however)."

Is that the all you're referring to? This sentence is restricting you from targeting multiple units in the same shooting phase with his shooting powers. It doesn't seem to be addressing the ability to use the same power more than once at all.

For what it's worth, I think I'm falling in on the side of Ahriman using the same power (shooting or otherwise) 2-3 times in the same turn. Here's why:

He is not unequivocally restricted from doing so by the Chaos codex.
Another recent codex (Eldar) is very clear in their restrictions on doing so.
There is no general rule disallowing it in the BBB or anywhere else.

So I think by RAW he's allowed to do it. I feel the same way about the aspiring sorcerers as well.

Lord Byron wrote:He is not unequivocally restricted from doing so by the Chaos codex.
Another recent codex (Eldar) is very clear in their restrictions on doing so.
There is no general rule disallowing it in the BBB or anywhere else.

Wrong approach though, don't look for rules against it but the rules that allow it.

He may make multiple psychic tests. Psychic tests allow him to use psychic powers. He can even use several shooting powers in the shooting phase, a bypass of the normal restriction in the Chaos Codex.

That's what he can do as that is what is in the rules. The other side's "only once a turn' restriction is not in the rules, and therefore not a restriction on how many times he may make psychic tests to use his powers. He can use three of in a turn with no restrictions.

davidson wrote:I see you didn't even read the thread, try again. Someone quoted the rules for a model that can use a psychic power more than once in a single turn. Heck it says he can use a power three times in plain english. I'll give you a hint, it's not even in the chaos codex. I've already proven that Ahriman can cast Gift of Chaos three times in the same phase with no issue at all.

Stop with the analogies people, it just clutters things up. Unless it's written in a rule book, it doesn't belong in a rule debate.

Then perhaps you should actually use that as your argument instead of the claiming that since he can perform multiple psychic tests that allows him to use multiple psychic powers. We're all here waiting.

snooggums wrote:
Wrong approach though, don't look for rules against it but the rules that allow it.

Oh, yeah, actually I agree. I just didn't say anything because you seemed to be doing a good job of going over it.

I kinda look at it like this: whenever a character is using a psychic power (equivalent to making a psychic test) you just choose one power from the list they have available and cast it. If they can cast 2 or 3 in the same turn, they just repeat this process multiple times. This, of course, would mean they can choose the same power twice in a row (unless a rule states otherwise, as in Eldar).