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ok heers an intersting one we came up with last weekend
my space wolves against my buddies eldar

after a good round of my shooting i eliminated all but the swooping hawks exarch the exarch broke and was heading back off the board.. now.... he has the ability of sky leap which states swooping hawks with skyleap may bounce off the table at the beginning of the movement phase and return the next round...now if thats the case does this allow him to come back as a single model even if he was broken before hand? a special ability overriding the normal broken unit retreats rule?

i tend to think it does and i let him play it that way

your thoughts?

The two rules (falling back and sky leap) are certainly contradictory so I don't think there is any concrete answer.

That said, the fall back rules are mandatory. If the unit fails to regroup (or cannot) then it must continue to fall back until it regroups or reaches the table edge.

Skyleap is an optional ability. So in my mind when you have an optional ability and a rule that mandates some sort of action you are beholden to follow the mandated rule unless the optional ability states that you can ignore it.


As such, I don't think a falling back Hawk unit can use Skyleap because they would be ignoring (breaking) the rules for falling back.

Thanks for your response
i see your point of view... but i know you are aware there are a ton of rules that units with special abilities that break traditional rules throughout the game im just wondering .. on this one what the order sequence is ill have to check it tomorrow.. if one happens before the other.. then i cant see skyleap overriding the fallback but if the leap could happen before the fallback i could see gw letting it happen

thanks again
R

It's a loophole. You probably shouldn't, but until a FAQ is released if players want to do this they should do the only thing the rules suggest when a contradiction occurs. Roll a D6.

By the rules he will fall back, but,
I'd have to think out side the box when things like this happen...
a guy with wings Isn't going to run away when he's scared, he's going to take off... literally.
all that I'd ask is that he passes a moral check before he returns to the battle field.

I've had the same thoughts with jump troops...
common sense really.

Gary...

hmm thats a tough one, and one i should keep an eye on to see how it turns out because i use them a lot in apoc.


also, remember that as per the FAQ's a model can use fleet of foot to advance forward if he is falling back. not too good if you are broken, but it can and has given me more time to re-group a squad above 50%. to me this means that falling back is not so "cut and dry"

i personally dont see why you wouldnt be able to.

1. IIRC, the skyleap rule doesnt mention that it has to be at the beginning of the turn, meaning it doenst take up your movement phase. this means that you would roll for falling back and after that you can skyleap(if you are still on the board!!) also doing it this way would still fit your criteria yak, seeing how the exarch\squad still completed the fall back rules.
2.also, in your case, the exarch would have to make a last man standing check on the turn he arrives, and every other turn per the rules.
3. some armies dont follow the fall back rules like you have stated, the old ork codex (or current, whatever) allowed for truckk boys to fall back to a truck, not the table edge for example.

with swooping hawks falling back 3d6, they fall back fast and chaces are they are gone if that happens anyways.

huge_eldar wrote:hmm thats a tough one, and one i should keep an eye on to see how it turns out because i use them a lot in apoc.


also, remember that as per the FAQ's a model can use fleet of foot to advance forward if he is falling back.

Actually, as per the FAQ, if you fleet, you must fleet along your line of retreat, not in another direction.

As per Skyleap:
"The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in the MOVEMENT phase......."

So the question is actually which takes place first? Morale checks, or movement.

Under Regrouping (p. 49 of the rulebook), it states that a unit may attempt to regroup by taking a leadership test at the start of the movement phase.

Except...........
In the above scenario, the lone Hawk Exarch would have to take a "Last Man Standing" leadership test at the BEGINNING of the turn. He cannot "regroup" since he, by himself, is way under the 50% threshold of the original unit strength.

If our Hawk passed the LMS test, then I would say yes, he could skyleap off the board, otherwise, he continues to fall back.

Here's the thing: by RAW, Skyleap is not an action that the squad takes. They do not move, or leave play, or whatever. Their controlling player simply elects to take them off the board. It is something that merely happens to them.

Thoughts?

I'd have to agree with Tegeus-Cromis - all skyleap says is you can take them off the table during the movement phase. Heck, it probably doesn't even matter if they're pinned, based on the wording "player can elect to remove them" - it's not their action.

So he'd get shot up, fall back...and then could be removed in the movement phase before falling back again. I'm not even sure if I think it's cheesy...you'd think if they can freaking fly away out of harms way that would be enough for them to feel pretty safe.

would the same apply for jump-pack equipped marines?

I'm asking because the rules for "Fall Back" state that the models must move 2D6 inches to the players table edge.

It also talks about the fall back corridor, and how the models must stay in it.

And, what about the 'Trapped!' portion of the fall back rule?

While it seems 'logical' that a winged warrior would fly away from the field, I think that in this instance, it is more of a case of trying to circumvent the rules.

Would the exarch still be broken? would he have to take a moral check to return to the table? Or, once he floats through the clouds, is he 'all better' ?

I think if the squad is less than 50% they cannot regroup (exarch last man whatever). So he skyleaps off table a broken unit leaves table he is gone bye bye no return no pass go. unless skyleap alows auto regroup even below 50% which I am unaware off.

Do exarchs have a rule that says they can regroup even when below 50%?

If not, then I don't see how Skyleap would negate the 'under 50%' rule. Even if the exarch was allowed to Skyleap, when he came back on the board he'd still be fleeing.

Laserbait:

would the same apply for jump-pack equipped marines?

No, because they have no rule that is anything like Skyleap.

Would the exarch still be broken? would he have to take a moral check to return to the table? Or, once he floats through the clouds, is he 'all better' ?

I was going to say that of course he'd still be broken, and would need to continue falling back after returning, but upon re-reading the rules, I noticed an even cheesier loophole:

"Units make a Fall Back move upon failing a Morale test, and in each subsequent Movement phase until the unit regroups or leaves the table."--pg 48

So by RAW, once the Exarch Skyleaps, he stops having to make Fall Back moves, since he has left the table.

I emphasise that I am talking about RAW here. Whether or not I would ever try this is another issue, and a topic for another thread.

jimbo1062:

So he skyleaps off table a broken unit leaves table he is gone bye bye no return no pass go.

Incorrect.

"Once a unit reaches the table edge it is considered to have left the immediate battle and may not return. Note that there is no need for individual models in the unit to mvoe 'off' the table--once a model reaches the edge, the unit has gone!"--pg 49

The Exarch has not reached a table edge, therefore there is nothing stopping him from DSing back into play.

Woo. Question is, does it matter all that much?

It's not like they're beyond powerful or anything.

The Eldar army with 4 bombs a turn is irritating, but whatcha gonna do?

You do (usually) have your own turn to kill them, if you can.

Well, if you wiped out a whole Hawk squad except the Exarch, and he proceeded to yoyo bomb you for the rest of the game, I daresay it would make a difference.

I would never dare try it myself, but I would be hard put to find a reason why my opponent couldn't do it if the situation arose.

You have a chance to kill him every turn, no? Seems simple enough to stop that if it's that big a deal.

No, you don't have a chance to kill them.

skyth wrote:No, you don't have a chance to kill them.

Why not?

Because they will just Skyleap and DS in over and over again. They'll never be around in your shooting phase once they start yoyoing.

Aaaah I see. Clever buggers those Eldar.

I'm confused...they get removed in your movement phase, and come back in your movement phase.

Why can't I do something to them during my turn?

Because there's nothing stopping them from entering play via Deep Strike and leaving play via Skyleap in the same movement phase.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Here's the thing: by RAW, Skyleap is not an action that the squad takes. They do not move, or leave play, or whatever. Their controlling player simply elects to take them off the board. It is something that merely happens to them.

Thoughts?

But again, if you remove the models from the table using Skyleap, then you're not following the rules for falling back which commands the unit to fallback 2D6".

Sure Skyleap gives the unit the option to be removed from the table but in this case they are bound by a rule that is forcing them to do something. A rule they would clearly be breaking if they Skyleap off the table.

Is there anything stopping the player from removing them after making the Fall Back move?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Is there anything stopping the player from removing them after making the Fall Back move?

Nope, not by the rules as written you are correct.


I believe the intent of Skyleap was that it replaces normal movement, but that is just my own personal opinion (which is why I don't believe that the Hawks are supposed to be able to Deep Strike and Skyleap in the same turn either).


But yeah, you're right. Although as an opponent I would insist that the Hawks still count as falling back when they come back on the table and if they didn't use Skyleap to hop back off the table again they would continue to fall back again.

yakface wrote:

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Is there anything stopping the player from removing them after making the Fall Back move?

I believe the intent of Skyleap was that it replaces normal movement, but that is just my own personal opinion (which is why I don't believe that the Hawks are supposed to be able to Deep Strike and Skyleap in the same turn either).

FYI, that's also Jervis' opinion.................

However, Rubber-hawking is allowed at the UKGT

skyth wrote:However, Rubber-hawking is allowed at the UKGT

Yeah, their UK GT FAQ has got a lot of 'problems'...................

It's nice to know Jervis' opinion but seeing Phil Kelly wrote these particular rules I am much more interested to see what he thinks.

- G