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Say my Chaos Lord is in a unit of Raptors. They have been defeated in CC and are falling back. The unit is below 50% and so cannot regroup. While falling back the remaining Raptor fails his Dangerous Terrain test and dies. The Chaos Lord is now on his own.

Can he regroup or is he still falling back?

Sholto

Once the unit is gone, it's gone, regardless of how it happened. He reverts to IC status and can attempt to regroup.

Thanks - that's what I thought.

But if the Raptor did not die, the unit as a whole would be unable to regroup and you would lose your IC once the unit reached the table edge.

Next question - can you kill your own units?

Sholto

Sholto wrote:Thanks - that's what I thought.

1. But if the Raptor did not die, the unit as a whole would be unable to regroup and you would lose your IC once the unit reached the table edge.

2. Next question - can you kill your own units?

Sholto

1. Yes

2. Not normally. Chaos Dreads, Kharne, scattering Ordnance/Barrage are a few possible ways of killing your own models. But to shoot at or assault one of your own units intentionally is generally a no.

A related question (don't have the BGB at work).

If an IC has joned the unit and they're falling back, can't the IC just leave the unit?


Eric

BGB page 50, third bullet point under "Characters Joining & Leaving Units".

I think the origional question may not be as cut and dried as all that. I only say this because I play guard and I run into this all the time with my command squads.

For those that don't know every IG command squad has an independant character (officer) leading a retinue of 4 guardsmen. The IC can never start the game on his own. He must have this retinue.

So, if the 4 guardsmen are wiped out from enemy fire does the officer need to take a morale check before becoming an IC? Or is he immediately considered not part of a unit anymore once it's gone? So he would not take a Ld check at all in that situation.

The real question is: When exactly does an IC joined to a unit (retinue or not) stop being part of that unit? It's very common that my IG command squads get wiped out in CC without ever engaging the officer. If he's considered to immediately be an IC there would be no morale check to take for losing the combat and the other side would get a massacered result right? That doesn't sound right. So, if it's not an immediate transition from being part of a unit to being a lone IC is it at the end of the phase?

It seems to make more sense since a command squad that has been reduced to an officer and one other guardsman from shooting would be subject to a morale check while if it was just the officer alone he wouldn't need one at all.

It would be easier ruleswise though to just say as a blanket statement that the moment the last member of the squad is gone the IC is considered free of the unit.

I've played it both ways but I'd like to see how others have done it.

Um, the original question is pretty cut and dried. In that example, there was another survivor, who only died while falling back after the morale check had already been made and failed.

AND the IC falling back with the survivor was fearless, unlike most IG officers

- Salvage

Glaive Company CO wrote:I think the origional question may not be as cut and dried as all that. I only say this because I play guard and I run into this all the time with my command squads.

For those that don't know every IG command squad has an independant character (officer) leading a retinue of 4 guardsmen. The IC can never start the game on his own. He must have this retinue.

So, if the 4 guardsmen are wiped out from enemy fire does the officer need to take a morale check before becoming an IC? Or is he immediately considered not part of a unit anymore once it's gone? So he would not take a Ld check at all in that situation.

The real question is: When exactly does an IC joined to a unit (retinue or not) stop being part of that unit? It's very common that my IG command squads get wiped out in CC without ever engaging the officer. If he's considered to immediately be an IC there would be no morale check to take for losing the combat and the other side would get a massacered result right? That doesn't sound right. So, if it's not an immediate transition from being part of a unit to being a lone IC is it at the end of the phase?

It seems to make more sense since a command squad that has been reduced to an officer and one other guardsman from shooting would be subject to a morale check while if it was just the officer alone he wouldn't need one at all.

It would be easier ruleswise though to just say as a blanket statement that the moment the last member of the squad is gone the IC is considered free of the unit.

I've played it both ways but I'd like to see how others have done it.

Actually, he would still have to make a Morale test regardless of when he becomes an IC, as he was still part of the losing side in the combat. Remember that in close combat, all units on the losing side must test (barring Fearless, etc). The fact that he is now an IC does not negate the fact that he was on the losing end of a close combat.

But yes, a general rule of thumb is that the character becomes an IC again as soon as the last model in the retinue/joined squad dies. So in shooting, if unit A kills off the retinue, unit B cannot target the IC unless he is the closest target.

And an interesting effect of that is that he suddenly doesn't have to take a -1 for being below half if the last guy dies.

Glaive Company CO wrote:It seems to make more sense since a command squad that has been reduced to an officer and one other guardsman from shooting would be subject to a morale check while if it was just the officer alone he wouldn't need one at all.

The officer on his own can stand bravely, but when he has Private Pile with him, you will find that while it looks like he and Pile are falling back, the officer is in fact chasing Pile back across the battlefield, cursing his mother and telling him to fight like a man

Sholto

mauleed wrote:And an interesting effect of that is that he suddenly doesn't have to take a -1 for being below half if the last guy dies.

Yep!! But it becomes easier to get the outnumbered negatives........ A JO with pvt pyle vs 4 marines are outnumber 2-1, but JO alone is outnumber 4-1.

Another misconception is fearless characters joining a unit don't make that unit fearless unless it specifically says so (chaplain ect).

don_mondo wrote:Actually, he would still have to make a Morale test regardless of when he becomes an IC, as he was still part of the losing side in the combat. Remember that in close combat, all units on the losing side must test (barring Fearless, etc). The fact that he is now an IC does not negate the fact that he was on the losing end of a close combat.

But he is not part of a unit that was in the combat. If we are saying that immediately upon the last member of the squad dying the IC is no longer considered part of the squad than we must be consistent with that. The retinue may have been in CC but the IC is not part of that retinue anymore. To me that is the same thing as saying that a retinue is falling back until the last member dies leaving the IC no longer part of the retinue and thus no longer falling back.

I'm just saying that there is a valid argument either way. In fact the same debate has come up here before but the consensus was the opposite.

A bit OT but still related - I think it will be interesting to see how this works when the new ruleset is released seeing that units like BA Honorguard are now fielded as a separate unit.

- G

Glaive Company CO wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Actually, he would still have to make a Morale test regardless of when he becomes an IC, as he was still part of the losing side in the combat. Remember that in close combat, all units on the losing side must test (barring Fearless, etc). The fact that he is now an IC does not negate the fact that he was on the losing end of a close combat.

But he is not part of a unit that was in the combat. If we are saying that immediately upon the last member of the squad dying the IC is no longer considered part of the squad than we must be consistent with that. The retinue may have been in CC but the IC is not part of that retinue anymore. To me that is the same thing as saying that a retinue is falling back until the last member dies leaving the IC no longer part of the retinue and thus no longer falling back.

I'm just saying that there is a valid argument either way. In fact the same debate has come up here before but the consensus was the opposite.

I don't see it. He's still a unit that WAS locked in the combat. Ergo, he's on the losing side and must test, as if it were a multiple unit combat. And I didn't say he's no longer falling back, I said he is now eligible to test as he's no longer part of a unit below 50%.......If he fails, he's still a unit falling back.

Well, if the IC was never in BTB then he was only engaged in CC because he was part of the unit. If he is no longer part of the unit then there is no more link between him and the CC.

However, I think I see where you're going now. IC's joined to units will still suffer the effects placed upon the unit even when the unit is no longer alive. The effects on the IC at that point (although still in effect) are as though the IC was never part of the unit.

I'm good with that. For some reason, I thought the argument was that IC's joined to units magically and immediately don't suffer effects on the unit when the last squad member dies. I get it now that since the IC in the first post was fearless his morale check is automatically passed.

I'm with it now! I'm just slow!

Sholto wrote:
Next question - can you kill your own units?

The Officio Assassinorum might have the right answer to your question. It's called Vindicare.
Bad for you: They don't offer their service to heretics and traitors.

I can't think of another unit shooting your own stuff on command.