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Ok, does anyone see the upside to an infantry heavy SM army? Or is everyone stuck on the down sides? Once I get my list, Ill post it on here... but it goes something like this (alot of the upgrades are not noted as to lack of time on computer in MWR)

HQ
Commander or Chaplain, possible w/ jump pack

Elite
x2 6 man Vet-Squads (CC capable)

Troop
x4 9 man Tac-Squads ( 2 w/ LC, 2 w/ HB)
x2 6 man Scout Teams ( w/2 SR, 1 RL per team)

Heavy
1 Whirlwind (reg rockets)
x2 6 man Dev-Squads (2 HB, 2 LC each) both mounted in RB, one with TLHB, one with TLLC

FastAttack
x1 8-9 man Jump-Squad (CC capable w/ melta bombs)


Ill post later my tactical reasoning for such an army, ITMT, can yall post on what yall think? And not necessarily about the list..but the concept.

One of my best lists ever was a all-marine army.

lol dang dude, your just all over this motherf%@#^! But yeah, I mean, Im sure you have already thought about this, but with Marines being the best all around infantry unit, CC capable and has a good reliable basic weapon, and as well with their capabilities of fielding HW in their squads with ease...why not put alot of them on the table? Now THAT was a run on sentence!

Hey Redmond. I completely agree. 3+ save, great gunz, great stat-line, ATSKNF, the SM's have it all.

A mate of mine plays DIRTY NIDS. We played a 1500 point game. At setup, the usual question arose- "How many figs. have you got to deploy?"

His answer: 65, Genies, Hormies, Carnies, and such.

My answer: 90. Gruntz.( Couple of heavy weapons, but not much!)

The look on his face was priceless. Yeah, he killed about 60 during the course of the game. Pity that by the end he had nothing, and I still had 30 Bad-Boys on the field.

I won the game, and he was still shocked from deployment.
That is why my Chapter master says" Only the living collect a pension"..... 15pts each is a bargain for what you get. Rack 'em and stack 'em.

um...SAFH footsloggers are the standard for competitive marines

Now thats what Im talking about!! People under estimate the power of the "ground pounder" way to often. And the army you just described is what I like to hear. Not everyone can live, as everyone knows when war occurs, but its the tactics and ingenuity that makes a battle worth its while. lol and I love the Chapter Master quote..thats a good one.

I have to second what IntoTheRain said. Who exactly is underestimating SM infantry armies? I suspect that these people are imaginary. SM armies are infantry-heavy. It is how they win games. What's the alternative? Mass Dreadnoughts? Mass bikes? It is to laff.

Uhhhh, ok, just about 60% of the people I play in my experience. Either I have a small group, or it just seems to me like most people like to have Termie's. LR's and such. Opponents generally fill thier Army out to counter( As I said, a more often than not occurence amongst the people I have played-my experience only). I think that Redmond's question was one I had thought of asking for awhile!

Nothing wrong with a mass bike army. There are alot of armies out there it will just crush.

Vehicle armies can be troublesome, but since you can't really 'get away' from bikes...

=========

6 drop pod dreads with supporting drop pod tactical squads is a serious PITA. Especially if there is mass venerable action going on...blech.

Everyone knows all-infantry SAFH is effective. Most people also realize that it's boring as heck. It's a good thing that people in your group like fielding a variety of units Akira.

akira, and Terminators aren't infantry since when?

Stelek, mass bikes a good idea? I know you're unbeatable and all-knowing and everything, but please share your reasoning and/or experience. I don't buy this claim.

Drop pods are a whole other thing. You're right, Dreads really come into their own when used that way.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Stelek, mass bikes a good idea? I know you're unbeatable and all-knowing and everything, but please share your reasoning and/or experience. I don't buy this claim.

Ravenwing can pull it off. It's not unbeatable, but it's fairly solid and the ability to assault on the first half of turn one really gives an advantage against Tau and Guard.

Tegus wrote

akira, and Terminators aren't infantry since when?

Stelek, mass bikes a good idea? I know you're unbeatable and all-knowing and everything, but please share your reasoning and/or experience. I don't buy this claim.

I might be a little thin skinned, but you sure do make abrasive staements Tegus. I, and Redmond (I think) were talking about standard SM's in power armour. 15 pts or 22 with a Jump-pack.

If I'm out of line , sorry.

There's definitely a difference in tone between "Terminators aren't infantry since when?" and "Terminators are infantry"--the former is somewhat ruder than the latter--but I'm not sure why that's worth making a fuss over. No offence was meant, and if any was taken, I apologise. (Incidentally, I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to Termies as something other than infantry before, even in the casual sense. If they're not infantry, what on earth are they?)

If you're including my comment to Stelek, well, he's not exactly Mr Bedside Manner himself.

Akira IS talking about the same thing I am. Me personally, being some ones whos played this game for about 7 years now, Iv always noticed when people start putting vehicles (alot of a few), they tend to hold their vehicles in high places, and they send their infantry in to either be meat for the grinder, or to just shoot at some enemy units, hoping their tank will finish the job. Now, since my time in the Marines, Iv noticed that is not the case. Infantry, either SM, Termies, Jump Packers, or Scouts, which ever you field, IS the key to success. The heart of a man can not be beat by steel and treads. Many may view my prior comment as insane, but its true. Infantry are the heart and soul of any army, and if used correctly, can tear an enemy apart, if used correctly and in a smart sense, not just meat for the grinder. Think about it... in a game of lets say..1850, if you could field 100 standard SM for 1500 pnts, and use the rest to give them some heavy weapons and some special gear, I fully believe that, said army, could win any battle. Think Im kidding? Try it out.

Redmond wrote:Akira IS talking about the same thing I am. Me personally, being some ones whos played this game for about 7 years now, Iv always noticed when people start putting vehicles (alot of a few), they tend to hold their vehicles in high places, and they send their infantry in to either be meat for the grinder, or to just shoot at some enemy units, hoping their tank will finish the job. Now, since my time in the Marines, Iv noticed that is not the case. Infantry, either SM, Termies, Jump Packers, or Scouts, which ever you field, IS the key to success. The heart of a man can not be beat by steel and treads. Many may view my prior comment as insane, but its true. Infantry are the heart and soul of any army, and if used correctly, can tear an enemy apart, if used correctly and in a smart sense, not just meat for the grinder. Think about it... in a game of lets say..1850, if you could field 100 standard SM for 1500 pnts, and use the rest to give them some heavy weapons and some special gear, I fully believe that, said army, could win any battle. Think Im kidding? Try it out.

It wouldn't be a bad army, it would definitly be competitive.

It would be, and Im positive that it is. It was one of my ideas for a long time..to do an army just like that. It may seem boring, but it wont be boring for my opponent who is facing 100 SM...some IG players dont even field 100 guardsmen...if that doesnt make you think...think harder.

Redmond, I don't disagree with you. The funny thing is that you seem to think this is some big, unorthodox revelation, when it has been the accepted wisdom for some time that vehicles suck in 4th ed (there are exceptions, like Land Speeders) and infantry are the way to go. You're not bucking a trend, you're jumping on a bandwagon, albeit one which you weren't aware existed.

Space marine safh have been around for a while. Good luck with objective based missions.

Ok...if you look at alot of the lists that some people have been putting up around here, and even to just watch armies played at your local store, youll notice alot of people tend to go the way of the tred. What I am talking about, is the sheer force of a infantry heavy SM army, one lacking in tank numbers, not necessarily absent though, but understanding the idea of using infantry as infantry were meant to be used. And Im not dogging on tanks at all, believe me, they have their place, but alot of people told me how I use my Marines is wrong, that you need tanks to support them, have variety on the field, which in fact, a 100 SM army can have variety, it just depends how you arm them. And I know that many use infantry heavy SM armies, IM just expressing my love for the concept.

Maybe people in your area just have an unusual way of playing. Really, I don't mean to put down your idea, but I have to say that this is the first time I've seen anyone claim that the current wisdom is that vehicle-heavy is the way to go for SMs. Dreads are good when podding (but so are Termies), Landspeeders are good for objective-grabbing and because ACs are imba, and Whirlwinds are good for their minefields. Outside of these three special cases, I'm hard-pressed to find an instance of a vehicle that is more commonly used than its infantry equivalent. In general, las/plas squads and Terminators rule the day.

I dont know, Iv just seen alot of people feel they need to field land raiders, or predators, which are good, but are held to high for my tastes. Yet, in the end, as you and I have states, the infantry is key.

When it comes to decision between preds and devistaters. You have to do some economics.

people like preds because because they carrie lots of fire power and are immune to small arms fire. Preds also win hands down in mobility. A dev squad can take one more las cannon, but they more vulnerable. More expensive too, and they stay pretty static in most games.

Vehicles have their place. Just don't cut off your nose and spite your face.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:akira, and Terminators aren't infantry since when?

Stelek, mass bikes a good idea? I know you're unbeatable and all-knowing and everything, but please share your reasoning and/or experience. I don't buy this claim.

Drop pods are a whole other thing. You're right, Dreads really come into their own when used that way.

Smurf lists and Ravenwing lists can run alot of bikes.

They used to suck, but now...they are almost as mobile as Eldar (can't avoid terrain is the difference).

Eating 30-40 bikes in one flank sucks if you aren't capable of mobility. Even if you are, unless it's a 24" mechanized list you can't get away...and there's nothing to stop them from speeding your way next turn.

I see alot of people run it as some kind of short-range shooty army.

It's a mass assault army is what it really is. Alot of armies have trouble putting enough bikers down, and that guaranteed turn 2 assault + invulnerable 3+ save first turn is alot of horse hockey.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Redmond, I don't disagree with you. The funny thing is that you seem to think this is some big, unorthodox revelation, when it has been the accepted wisdom for some time that vehicles suck in 4th ed (there are exceptions, like Land Speeders) and infantry are the way to go. You're not bucking a trend, you're jumping on a bandwagon, albeit one which you weren't aware existed.

I see you really are new to 40K (again?).

Vehicles (except Eldar Falcons) have always sucked donkey chips, from Rogue Trader to current day.

Bad rules system is to blame.

would an all infantry chaos list be any good?

Stelek, are you refering to me in your last post?

Snorkle, SM, Chaos or Loyalist are good, but down to the fact Iv never played as Chaos besides in Dawn of War, I wouldnt know. In DoW, they are good, crazy SOBs who I think would do good, but points wise and rules wise for the table top 40k, Im not sure, but I wouldnt see why not.

gdurant, yes if I were to field any tanks, it would have to be a predator, with TLLC and heavy bolters on the side, but until I start changin my list up, Im stickin with the mobile artillery of the whirlwind.

people like preds because because they carrie lots of fire power and are immune to small arms fire. Preds also win hands down in mobility. A dev squad can take one more las cannon, but they more vulnerable. More expensive too, and they stay pretty static in most games.

Preds are also doable if taken on the cheap. Once you get past 110-120 they are a points sink. Taking them at 95pts (DA) and losing them is not as bad as say a Landraider for the points/cost efectiveness ratio.

Redmond wrote:Stelek, are you refering to me in your last post?

No, cromus.