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You have got to be kidding me. Three words, two phrases:

Entanglement.

Hull down.

Regardless of whether they were any good to begin with, vehicles, both transports and gun platforms, are generally worse in 4th than they were in 3rd. Fact.

I have to agree, that taking certain vehicles can be a waste of points, especially if lost fast. My state of mind of models and points is, if a model has destroyed more than its worth, its done its job, if not, it was a waste of time and points.

I never said vehicles were ever any good in 40K.

They sucked in Rogue Trader.

They suck worse now.

How much 'suck' do you need to convince you to stop using vehicles?

At least ones that aren't fast skimmers!

No one needs to convince me, I'm saying the same thing ffs. All I said was that vehicles suck in 4th ed. Your response was. . . I'm a noob? If you say so.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Maybe people in your area just have an unusual way of playing. Really, I don't mean to put down your idea, but I have to say that this is the first time I've seen anyone claim that the current wisdom is that vehicle-heavy is the way to go for SMs. Dreads are good when podding (but so are Termies), Landspeeders are good for objective-grabbing and because ACs are imba, and Whirlwinds are good for their minefields. Outside of these three special cases, I'm hard-pressed to find an instance of a vehicle that is more commonly used than its infantry equivalent. In general, las/plas squads and Terminators rule the day.

t-C... That's where you made your error.
He's not saying that vehicle heavy is "current wisdom," (the operative word being "wisdom") he just said it's the most common. That doesn't make it WISE... just frequent. LOL I have to concur, as well. Now, typically, I only play with a group of 2 other -VERY experienced- gamers (both since Rogue Trader) and they don't go tank crazy. When we go to the local GW store for tourneys an whatever, any MEQ army has a crapload of tanks out.
I see Rhinos like it's nobody's business. There's usually a LR in there (probably 6 or 7 out of 10 times), Pred's... You name it.
Average gamers tend to think that tanks rock because they AREN'T infantry.

"A Space Marine can be killed by a laspistol. Not My Predator!"

Personally, I like infantry, tanks AND bikes (they can be HARD, if played right). I cannot STAND Dreads and Land Speeders.
Unless you hide them, they always seem to die early. I have never seen either make it past turn 3 without being, at least, immobilized (Dreads). Sure, a LSpeeder is good for objective grabbing... as long as you keep it hidden for 5 turns. Otherwise, a heavy Bolter will take it down.

As for Dreads? One round of shooting is usually all it takes.

Whirlwind minefields can really blow. Granted, I typically play against MEQ's and various Nids... but still.. One Whirlwind doesn't usually lay enough mines to be more than a minor nuisance (in my experience). I occasionally lay fields with my Whirlwind... but I like the single shot better.

Sure, SAFH isn't anything new... but I rarely see ANYONE talk about taking 100 SM's in a 1850 point army... Come to think of it, this is the first time I recall ever seeing that. I think it's interesting.

I'd say it counts as an UNCOMMON approach (though not new).


Redmond... I'd LOVE to see you post a 100 model list (or close).



Eric

You really want 2500 points to make an effective 'I can take shooting casaulties' SM list with over 100 models.

1850 it's very difficult. 1545 in base points to get a legal 100 marine army doesn't get you far.

Magikal...I let my buddy at another base barrow my SM codex, once I get it back, Ill post up a 100 SM army, or close.
As for 1545 being the base line of 100 Marines, thats what, 305 points to use to give teams heavy weapons, frag grenades, and the CC weapons for SGTs and whom ever...it can work. Ill try and get one up ASAP.

Tegus wrote

There's definitely a difference in tone between "Terminators aren't infantry since when?" and "Terminators are infantry"--the former is somewhat ruder than the latter--but I'm not sure why that's worth making a fuss over. No offence was meant, and if any was taken, I apologise. (Incidentally, I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to Termies as something other than infantry before, even in the casual sense. If they're not infantry, what on earth are they?)

They are suits of Tactical Dreadnought Armour. One of the first 'Counts as' units I can remember.

Ps, I only make a fuss if my cake dosen't rise in the oven.

Redmond wrote:Magikal...I let my buddy at another base barrow my SM codex, once I get it back, Ill post up a 100 SM army, or close.
As for 1545 being the base line of 100 Marines, thats what, 305 points to use to give teams heavy weapons, frag grenades, and the CC weapons for SGTs and whom ever...it can work. Ill try and get one up ASAP.

Yeah, you can. For what I want, I'll take the 72 tank hunter heavy bolter shots and 6 lascannons. It's really quite amusing, even if the squads are short.

@ Stelek-nice. That's some serious firepower.

Well see, Stelek already has something goin there. And just that alone, if that army can hold 72 tank hunter heavy bolters, lol even if the Emperor hated you, you couldnt roll THAT many misses

Vehicles (except Eldar Falcons) have always sucked donkey chips, from Rogue Trader to current day.

Tell that to Rhino Rushing Space Wolves and Blood Angels in 3rd.

Hell, tell that to the soon-to-be-official Ork Trukk.

I did. I had plenty of armies to crush the Rhino rush flat.

BA had that free init/str for a long time. My Sisters from the CA book made every BA army retreat after they lost their honor guard and DC to 'I am a stupid automoving unit shoot me dead please'.

SW weren't much different really. I loved playing my TS against them back then. 3+ to hit was awesome to abuse with super Champions.

Ork Trukks still die. That's all that matters. I don't care if the Orks can get out and charge me--if they don't hide behind their trukk, I'll shoot the crap outta 'em with my anti-infantry fire. Dunno about you, but all my lists have AT and AI units or a flex combo, and they all have mobility built in--more mobility than what Orks get, anyways.

snorkle wrote:would an all infantry chaos list be any good?

2 Lash sorcs, a bunch of blastmaster only Noise Marines and 9 Oblits. Maybe toss some Chosen, Termies or khornate Raptors in if you field the List at a higher point level.
Close to being a no-brainer. I'd take the Sorcerers over the Princes. But that's just me not wanting my enemy shooting my important stuff before the game even started.

Which chapter, do you think would be the best all infantry army? I know each chapter has their own little flavor of the CC ways, but which do you think would do the best?

The one with the true grit and mass apothecary sarges.

Man is that army hard to displace.

Hmmm... I was expecting someone to saw Blood Angels, or DA Deathwing, or something...

"DA" and "best" don't belong in the same sentence, except maybe together with the word "target".

lol Well, my bad I guess. Twas a question from the curious man typing this very sentence.

Sorry if that came across as rude. DA are just that limited, IMO. Granted, if you're set on filling the army with maxed Tac squads, then their combat squad rules do give them an edge there, but as far as everything else infantry(-ish) is concerned (Assault Marines, Termies, Devs), they're simply outclassed. I would not look to them for a strong infantry-based force other than for the purist 10-man Tac spam idea mentioend earlier.

Vanilla Marines with tankhunter and apothecarius traits would serve you well.

Bolters alone don't win games. Heavy Weapons with a lot of durability do.

Tegus Cromis

"DA" and "best" don't belong in the same sentence, except maybe together with the word "target".

I actually thought that was one of the funniest things I have read this week! lol

On topic, I find Vanilla Marines with Counter-Attack and True grit are effective. You get for 3 points each...
CC weapon.\
Counter Attack skill (Love it when you see the look on a 'Nid players face when YOU keep trying to CHARGE his units. Gold.)
True Grit- Always has 2 attacks. Always..

I find this very effective when combined with a Drop pod force. 10 grunts, CA & TG, 1 x Melta gun. 1 Drop pod.

Squad costs 220 points (or 215?- Codex @ home).
18 RF Bolter shots on landing.(+2 x SB from DP)
1 x Melta shot (Str 8 + 2D6AP if within 6" of a vehicle)

And chances are they will try to charge you asap. Nice. you have 2 att. per model waiting for them.
1500 pts
Means you have 60 Grunts, 6 Melta guns, (Up close and personal because of the Droppies) so no need for long range HW, and 180 pts to spend on an Uber-Lunatic Leader, who can be the really 'Fun' part of your Chapter. A Chaplin on a bike with assorted gear can be sweeeeeet.

What do you think Stelek/Redmond/Tegus?

Well considering the fact that my codex is with my friend at this time, and the true grit rule sounds to me like itd be worth the points, but how many points per model is it?

A previous Goon said

On topic, I find Vanilla Marines with Counter-Attack and True grit are effective. You get for 3 points each...
CC weapon.
Counter Attack skill (Love it when you see the look on a 'Nid players face when YOU keep trying to CHARGE his units. Gold.)

True Grit- Always has 2 attacks. Always..

So it costs 3 points per model. You get 2 skills and a CC weapon.

I'll post a list for you akira. What I'd do with a true grit army anyways.

lol well sorry about that akira, I guess I must have read over that part...so that makes each model 18, and for a standard squad...thats about what..180 or 190 somethin?

@ Stelek-Thanks, I'll look forward to a different way of looking at that!

@ Redmond- Yeah, cheap, but the DP adds to the effectivenes of your troops exponentially.

hmm...sounds good to me, whenever Im back in the states, Ill have to try that out.

akira5665 wrote:Tegus wrote

There's definitely a difference in tone between "Terminators aren't infantry since when?" and "Terminators are infantry"--the former is somewhat ruder than the latter--but I'm not sure why that's worth making a fuss over. No offence was meant, and if any was taken, I apologise. (Incidentally, I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to Termies as something other than infantry before, even in the casual sense. If they're not infantry, what on earth are they?)

They are suits of Tactical Dreadnought Armour. One of the first 'Counts as' units I can remember.

Ps, I only make a fuss if my cake dosen't rise in the oven.

Infantry to me (and everyone I play against) are those units listed as "Infantry". They usually move 6", are slowed by difficult terrain. Assualt squads move 12", are not slowed by difficult terrain, and are classed as "Jump Infantry".

Powered Armor equivalent is different, and can broadly be said to include anything with a 3+ save.


With regards to the origional question, t-C is quite correct. Most competant C: SM players agree that infantry-based lists are the most effective build available to them.

Redmond wrote:I have to agree, that taking certain vehicles can be a waste of points, especially if lost fast. My state of mind of models and points is, if a model has destroyed more than its worth, its done its job, if not, it was a waste of time and points.

That’s a pretty crude way of looking at a unit’s value. You’re in the military, you’d have to be aware that the average grunt on the ground proves his value time and again on the battlefield, often without ever firing a shot in anger.

Some units draw immense amounts of enemy fire, because they represent such a threat if allowed to operate unhindered. They’ll get popped early on but the amount of fire they absorb allows other units to operate at full effectiveness. Other units cost a packet and won’t often kill their points worth, but will kill units in the enemy list that are far more dangerous than their points value would indicate. Other units have little killing potential, but are great at holding expensive enemy units in melee. Other units still have little offensive ability or hardiness, but are extremely cheap and very good at holding out of the way objectives.

In my tyranid list the only units that consistently get their points back are the ‘stealers, raveners and hive tyrants. But the hormagaunts and gaunts are essential for tying up enemy units and stopping them from killing my ‘stealers before they reach assault range. The carnifex (with venom cannon and barbed strangler) has to roll pretty well to kill much, but is vital to stop enemy tanks pounding my assault troops. My zoanthropes are heavily targeted and are generally shot to pieces before they reach effective range, but that means a lot less bullets are hitting my ‘stealers.