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Let's suppose that the Ork army includes 'some Lootas', 'lots of Shoota Boyz', and 'some Stormboyz' among other things. How do you think Tyranid players should prepare for facing the greenskins? Do you think they will do well enough with their usual Dakkafex/Gunfex spam? What kind of elements should they bring to their army list? Do you think they can play with their normal strategy, or disperse/bunch up more than before? Who do you think has the advantage here?

Nidzilla will struggle vs. normal Orks, especially at over 1500 points where the Orks can fit in the horde and all the Storm Boyz and Lootas they need.

Storm Boyz really do negate the entire strength of Nidzilla since if you're in Devourer range you're well within Storm Boy charge range.

If you screen with Gaunts then the rest of the Orks can get a charge in, slaughter the gaunts while getting closer due to consolidate moves and being safe from shooting, and eventually get into the TMC's.

The only things that really rip up Orks now are Stealers or Warriors ironically. Lots of high WS, S4 or better attacks at a better I than the Boyz can put out.

The biggest issue I see is running the standard Godzilla list, but even Zillas vs. Gaunts I see problems with because shootas will just decimate normal gaunts by the bucket load in Shooting and CC and the rest of the Ork army is just death to the rest of the Fex's in the army with Storm Boyz being fast enough to catch anything with a Devourer that wants to get shots off.

The new Orks are definitely going to re-balance a lot of people's armies. Who knows, they might learn some new tricks too. Should be cool to see people collecting Warriors again to deal with Orks.

However I'm worried that this conversation is going to ignore what people actually do with their armies at the expense of what those armies are composed of. What actual tactics might people employ with their Tyranids to offset material advantages?

I will drop pie plates on them, snipe the power klaw with a Tyrant, and throw gaunts and raveners at them to misdirect charges just like I do now to marine assault hordes.

You'll see a lot more people buying 2+ saves on their bugs for sure (I already buy 2+/T7 on my gunfexes and 2+/6+ on my Flyrant) -- to counter Rokkits and Lootas. You'll also see a lot more people taking 3 Tyrant guards (since even Stormboyz will not kill that unit very easily before it guts them).

It'll be a tough game mind you, but I think with board-edge hugging and focus firing, combined with lots of spinegaunts out of synapse in cover to take charges you'll do just fine.

an 'all comers' tourney style zilla army will definitely have problems against the new orks, as what works well against all those boring power armour armies will get swamped by the average new ork army.

but if it's a question of designing a anti-ork zilla army, that's not so hard. Lotsa barbed stranglers (including warriors), lotsa infiltrating stealers, maybe some big gargoyle units?

If you were building an army specifically to play a game against the new orks, I would say a lictor popping out and eating the big mek with the KFF would poop on his day. Then all the lootas suddenly have a 6+ save, and one or 2 barbed strangler shots are taking em out.

if people start running something other than stealers, I think they'll be okay. Only ten orks in a 30 man mob will actullay hit something gaunts and hormagants have shooting and cc tha can take on orks. Yes there is going to be return fire. but if you drop an elie fex or two and pop that into a 30 man gaunt squad I'm sure it makes up for shooting against hordes. That said the sniper fexes with barbed stranglers are going to turn on larg mobs. Horde orks aren't a punching bag but Nids can put up a more than decent fight.

Tyranids can put a lot of low AP shots onto the field. Orks can put a lot of shots out there too, but mostly through vulnerable units like looters.

In a straight up match up stealers will get overwhelmed by a their points equivalent in slugga boyz, but a 'nid list can put some serious hurt into those boyz before they reach your lines.

I'd probably try to back my own shooting, target his own ranged shooting first and take that out, forcing him to march up the field to me. It's in this situation that shooting units with excellent counter charge abilities come into their own.

Let's do the math of units of 30 shootas vs. things like genestealers and gaunts. We'll say 30 boyz, 3 rokkits, and a klaw.

First vs. 12 genestealers with 4+ saves.

The orks should get to shoot them at least once, so 52 shots, 52/3 hit, 52/6 wound, and 52/12 die, so about 4, plus one more to a rokkit.

So 7 genestealers hit the orks with 21 attacks. We'll say 1/2 the boyz are in kill zone, including the klaw. 21 attacks, 21/6 rend, killing 3.5, 21/2 hit otherwise, 21/4 wound, and 105/24 fail their save, so another 4 die, so 7.5 dead. We'll say 8.

The remaining 7 orks fight back. 12 regular attacks hit 6 time, wound 2, and kill 1. The 4 klaw attacks kill 2 more. So 3 dead.

Genestealers win, but now 4 genestealers are fighting 22 orks, and evaporate next turn, before they can send any help in, and about 18-20 orks advance. Not good for the genestealers.

Second vs. 2X20 spinegaunts

So the orks will get to shoot one of the units once. So 52 shots, 52/3 hits, 104/9 dead, or about 11.

So 29 spinegaunts hit the orks. Let's assume all are in the kill zone, and no one is in cover, and the spinegaunts had to fleet to make it to combat. So 58 attacks, 29 hits, 29/3 wounds, and 145/18 fail, or about 8 dead (same as the genestealers incidentally).

20 orks swing back, 40/3 hit, 40/6 wound, and 100/36 die, or about 3. The klaw kills about 3 more. The gaunts win, but the orks hold.

Next round the 23 spinegaunts hit 23/2 times, wound 46/6 times, killing about 6. The orks kill about 5 and lose again, both fearless. The orks are stuck, and the nid player can now get help in there.

So orks need to fear gaunts.

Hormagaunts would be the bane of Orks. Their fast move into assault can mitigate any shoota boy shots, 3 attacks on the charge hurts the Orks and WS 4 Hoppies protects them better from return fire.

Ed's numbers change more in favor of the Bugs when a winged Devourer Tyrant hits the Shoota boy squad the turn the Gaunts charge. His 12 shots, not his assault, will reduce the 30 boyz squad by a 1/3rd and make the Gaunt assault that much more effective.

It could be that most Zilla lists would do well to get rid of the 3 screaming zopes for a 3rd gun fex and pie plate, then lose ravenors and a stealer squad or two for 2 big units of hormagaunts. Now you'll have a take all comers list all over again and include new orks in that bargain.

That was my point. The best way to deal with cheap fodder troops is to throw cheap fodder troops back.
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the gunfexes started carrying TL deathspitters and a barbed strangler for orde engagements.

There are other viable tactics. Since orcs don't have great LR shooting (save for lootas) steleks MC wall might start pooping up. Macke a wall of 8 MC's and lay down the firepower trying to whittle down as many squads as possible. Then when theu get close seperat and charge in with multiple squads at once. That way we don't have the genestealers murdered my numbers situation.

What is Ork leadership for target priority checks?

10 until there are less than 11 of them left. Then it's the number of models in the mob.

So it's not much of a problem.

Ed's numbers change more in favor of the Bugs when a winged Devourer Tyrant hits the Shoota boy squad the turn the Gaunts charge. His 12 shots, not his assault, will reduce the 30 boyz squad by a 1/3rd and make the Gaunt assault that much more effective.

12 shots, 10 hits, slightly less than 10 wounds, about 6 die after cover saves. So only reduces it by about 20%, not 33%.

I dont know why people are always raving about shootas now. I have run them in 10 games since I got the pdf, and so far they have done nothing to impress me a slugga boyz mob couldnt do better. IF somehow they get in range to all get their shots off, assuming 30 strong, with 3 rokkits and a nob, thats only 26 regular shootas. Now 52 shots sounds intimidating...until you realize its orks. 52 shots vs something like genestealers with even a 5+ save (the ap is only 6) is 16 hits, 8 wounds, and 5 or so dead, 4 if they have a 4+. That is the only shooting they will be doing, multiple shots with a squad that size and so lumbering is near impossible, not to mention making difficult terrain tests practically every turn of every game because of the huge size. Slugga boyz are still the kings for me because they get more effective attacks.

But you cant count on pie plates to save you vs orks anymore. With one mek with a kustom force field I can protect 2 full 30 man squads. All you have to do is daisy chain back to the mek, everyone in the squad gets the benefit regardless of range. Of corse that is why its 5x the points it was in the previous dex, even though it offers the same save.

You cant rely on the flyrant tying up the lootas, that is why we have the warboss on a bike. Toughness 6 with 7 str 10 power attacks on the charge means even the most heavily tooled up tyrant is probably going to lose. I would say gargoyles, but I have been told they blow. Ironically the best upgrade for nids vs orks may be the 1+ to their save, even though I prefer the +1 toughness for carnifex. If 15 lootas shoot at a carnifex averaging 30 shots, 10 should hit, and 8 wound, 7 or 6 with a +1 wound. Now its alot easier to make 8 2+ saves than 3+, but its a trade off because marine type armies in tourneys, which there are alot more of, will most likely ignore a 2 or 3 with whatever their shooting the fexes with making the higher toughness or extra wound more valuable.

And someone asked what they use for their Ld for target priority, leadership tests are taken off mob size for orks, so I believe the max is 10 Ld.

So lets do the math of the sluggas vs. the genestealers and compare to above.

First sluggas vs. 12 genestealers with 4+ saves

The sluggas don't get any shots off, so all 12 stealers hit them. We'll say since there are 12 models that there are 24, including the klaw, in the kill zone.

36 attacks kill 6 outright, then get 18 more hits, 9 wounds, and about 8 dead. So 14 die.

10 regular boyz fight back, swing 30 times, hit 15, wound 5, kill 2.5. The klaw kills about 2 more. So let's say 4.

So now it's 8 stealers vs. 16 orks

Next turn, 8 stealers fight, 16 attacks, about 3 dead to rending, 8 more hits, 4 wounds, about 4 dead. So 7 more die.

The remaining 9 fight, 24 regular attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead, klaw kills 2 more. So again, 4 die.

So genestealers win, and the orks are testing on an 8, probably with a reroll. But ultimately, it's likely they destroy each other.

Result: shootas are much better against genestealers, assuming they shoot them once before fighting them.

Second: sluggas vs. 2X20 spinegaunts.

Again, with the 12" range, no shots before the gaunts hit. And with all these models, everyone fights.

80 gaunt attacks, 40 hits, 40/3 wounds, 200/18 kill, or around 10.

19 regular orks plus klaw swing back, with a total of 55 attacks (rokkits). They hit 110/3 times, wound 110/6 and kill 550/36, or 15. The klaw kills 2 more.

The orks win round 1.

Now 23 gaunts attack 23 times, hit 23/2, wound 23/6, and kill 115/36, or 3

Now there are 17 orks, with 45 attacks, hit 30 times, wound 15, and kill about 13.

Result: sluggas kick gaunt azzz.

Now of course the usefulness of these calculations is limited, since it's in a vacuum, but point for point, it tells us who can do what. In the real world, the nid player gets to pick his battles vs. shootas or sluggas (though waaagh might mitigate that) and can throw in some support like ravenors when he really wants to win, or in the later rounds after the orks aren't fearless.

But what I'm taking from it is that if you want to make me worry about losing my 90 shootas to hth, you better bring at least 120 gaunts. Against other armies I can just move forward and let you slam into me.

I think without taking into account what happens to the orks after a few rounds of barbed strangler fire it's all pointless.

But I will stand by my fearless 5pt gaunt horde personally.

Well in my list those barbed stranglers are busy fighting my warboss and a unit of 5 koptas with a klaw, and not doing much shooting at all.

But no doubt gaunt heavy godzilla nids will still be uber competitive. Not so much I think for the other varieties.

funny that you dont use hormaguants...

A good godzilla army has:

-flying hive tyrant with devourers and warp field
-devourer fexes
- heavy fexes with vennom cannons to kill those open topped ork vehicles.
- the all got 2+ saves.
-sum genestealers behind the carnifexes(cover!) to counter assault anything..
- sum raveners...so that the can lock a unit of orks for one turn..and then....devourer,devourer,devourer...

overall..the tyranids got to much 2+save monsters and a higher Initiative and devourers!

If you got a godzilla list with these units and you play against a balanced ork list...I put my money on the tyranids.

I would also fear the full pack of possible 5 warp screams...

The point is both list are competitive.

It's hard to say whcih one would romp the other. I think they're pretty evenly matched. I'm surprised no one has started a thread on how well mech eldar are going to do.

@Shogun,
I am not so sure about your comments on Godzilla nidz. My Godzilla nidz does not look like that and I finished the GT season in 14th place overall.

I use: (1850 I think)
2x HT. devourers and VC, +1 BS, +1 armor
3 Dakka fexes
60 fleshboarer gaunts
6 raveners
3 Zoeys warpblast and synapse
2 Gunfexes. barb, VC, +1 BS, +1 Armor

I did just fine with no flyrant and no stealers and I never lost to another Godzilla list and I faced a bunch.

Darrian

mauleed wrote:10 until there are less than 11 of them left. Then it's the number of models in the mob.

So it's not much of a problem.

Ed's numbers change more in favor of the Bugs when a winged Devourer Tyrant hits the Shoota boy squad the turn the Gaunts charge. His 12 shots, not his assault, will reduce the 30 boyz squad by a 1/3rd and make the Gaunt assault that much more effective.

12 shots, 10 hits, slightly less than 10 wounds, about 6 die after cover saves. So only reduces it by about 20%, not 33%.

Oops you are right, I forgot about the KFF. It would still seem to be that Hormagaunts are the best counter to Ork horde armies. I'm just not sure how viable they are against everything else.

As to the Warboss on Bike taking on the Flyrant. I would hope the Flyrant gets a shot (12 of them) off on the Warboss first, but if he doesn't he better be packing implant attack to make every wound cause 2 wounds if he wants to survive.

Good point. Note to self: warboss kills elite fexes, koptas or stormboyz kill flyrants.

shogun wrote:A good godzilla army has:

-flying hive tyrant with devourers and warp field
-devourer fexes
- heavy fexes with vennom cannons to kill those open topped ork vehicles.
- the all got 2+ saves.
-sum genestealers behind the carnifexes(cover!) to counter assault anything..
- sum raveners...so that the can lock a unit of orks for one turn..and then....devourer,devourer,devourer...

overall..the tyranids got to much 2+save monsters and a higher Initiative and devourers!

If you got a godzilla list with these units and you play against a balanced ork list...I put my money on the tyranids.

I would also fear the full pack of possible 5 warp screams...

The point of my comments was that if you have a genestealer based list like you've listed, you're:

a. probably not going to do well against the new orks
b. definitely not going to do as well as gaunt based godzilla.

...because orks (or at least shootaboyz) don't need to fear the genestealers.

Darrian13 wrote:@Shogun,
I am not so sure about your comments on Godzilla nidz. My Godzilla nidz does not look like that and I finished the GT season in 14th place overall.

I use: (1850 I think)
2x HT. devourers and VC, +1 BS, +1 armor
3 Dakka fexes
60 fleshboarer gaunts
6 raveners
3 Zoeys warpblast and synapse
2 Gunfexes. barb, VC, +1 BS, +1 Armor

I did just fine with no flyrant and no stealers and I never lost to another Godzilla list and I faced a bunch.

Darrian

it's kinda off topic, but I love your list. I love swarm bug armies

Darrian13 wrote:@Shogun,
I am not so sure about your comments on Godzilla nidz. My Godzilla nidz does not look like that and I finished the GT season in 14th place overall.

I use: (1850 I think)
2x HT. devourers and VC, +1 BS, +1 armor
3 Dakka fexes
60 fleshboarer gaunts
6 raveners
3 Zoeys warpblast and synapse
2 Gunfexes. barb, VC, +1 BS, +1 Armor

I did just fine with no flyrant and no stealers and I never lost to another Godzilla list and I faced a bunch.

Darrian

good list!.... This is exactly the kind of your list i mean, it also includes the dakkafexes,raveners,Gunfexen with vennom cannon (among other things)... This is also a good example. Maybe you got no flying hive with devourers..it doesnt matter..because you still got 2 devourerhives that can devourer and bring down ork buggies with vennom cannons. instead of genestealers you got a swarm so you can block those orkies to protect you monsters..

In my eyes you got a perfect list for killing orks..and i would also put my money on you..

Thank you, I am flattered.

A few of the guys in my gaming group have been working on the Orks and I can't wait to test my Nidz against the new codex.

Darrian

I'd suspect that the new Orks would hate a wave of leaping rippers

700 points gives them potentially 150 wounds to mash through without much Str 6 to thin them out

Pete

PLC wrote:I'd suspect that the new Orks would hate a wave of leaping rippers

700 points gives them potentially 150 wounds to mash through without much Str 6 to thin them out

Pete

Except of course for the lootas that will be in every ork army you see. And the klaws you'll see in every squad.

15 lootas, 10 hits, about 8-9 dead ripper bases with every volley.

Fair call....re the lootas, the klaw is less of a problem....nid players are already usually pretty good at removing casualties so PF etc never get to strike.

Pete

To protect against Lootas I'd consider that one bug that hides in terrain at deployment. Lootas are going to be deployed into cover. Its probably going to be pretty obvious which cover once the table is set up. Lootas stuck in HTH arn't shooting anything.