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I've been having some trouble with bikes/marine squads lately with my IG and really anything mobile. Was wondering if Rough Riders would help any with that and wanting to buy 20 Death Korps Rough Riders (I know the $$$$ Cost and brittleness blah blah blah)...

I'd be looking at 1-2 Platoons of 10 and weather or not ited be worth it to equip them with Melta Bombs but in the end they would still be 5+ shoot at me horses who are scared to go into woods or buildings.

Alone it would be 178 Points with a Vet Sgt, all have Melta Bombs, 2 Melta Guns. Or just alone it would be 116 Points with no upgrades other then Veteran Sgt. Its nice that they move 6", D6", 12" charge with STR 5 INT 5 but is it worth it or even as a AT weapon with the Melta Bombs/Melta Guns that Deepstriking Stormtroopers with more survivability for less points can do just as efficiently without having a chance to be shot at when they hit the ground if you roll ~ average and can do the Deepstriking 2/3's of the time?

I'm not exactly sure what "ited" is supposed to mean.
Is that a "kidspeak" abbreviation for something?

That being said... don't waste your time on 2 squads of these. I really don't think you would find it to be worth it in the end.

One squad isn't bad, but keep them as close to bare minimum as reasonably possible. A Vet Sarge with a power weapon and the rest with their special lance-boomsticks should do the trick. LOL

Typically, they'll get to a target and do some damage, then die painfully. If you can manage an extra round of combat or 2 with them, your Vet Sgt can possibly do a little damage.

The trick is to hide them until you have a target then, once you HAVE the target, nail it.
Rarely have I played them or against them where they didn't earn their point cost, either in enemy models killed or as a quagmire against shooty units.


Eric

Rough Riders are a great unit for IG, so I'd certainly recommend getting some if you're planning on playing much IG. As mentioned above, though, half the trick to them is keeping them cheap (as with all IG stuff), so get lances and nothing else (maybe a PW for a vet sgt...I'm pretty iffy on that even).

They die like regular guardsmen and will probably be fairly high on your enemy's target list, so you'll have to act appropriately. I find them most useful around the middle of an IG gunline, behind cover. They can then rush out and counter-assault whatever nasties get too close to your lines.

If you're using them in conjunction with mech IG, they'll compete with hellhounds for slots, which is hard. I'd grab a squad of them and have them surrounded by vehicles to protect from small arms fire, then counter assault as needed. I usually run squads of 8, FWIW.

Yes "Ited", It would is what it should be and has been edited and fixed... Go me after posting while waking up after debating the topic last night... Goes along with posting while your drunk or drunk cell phone calls.

I've played guard for about 5 years now and always over looked the possibility of adding rough riders in my army due to effectiveness. So I'm glad that I have gotten some feedback on it and will look into buying a squad of them.

Spacewolverine wrote:Yes "Ited", It would is what it should be and has been edited and fixed... Go me after posting while waking up after debating the topic last night... Goes along with posting while your drunk or drunk cell phone calls.

I've played guard for about 5 years now and always over looked the possibility of adding rough riders in my army due to effectiveness. So I'm glad that I have gotten some feedback on it and will look into buying a squad of them.

LOL

Okay.

"It would."

I get it now.

I'd have gotten it if it was, say, "it'd.".... I was pronouncing the "I" as a "hard I," as in "I, Ted..."

Now, I got it.

As for the above post, calling them "high" on the prioirty list for your opponent... he's right. They tend to be targeted as much as possible.

They keys are to take advantage of intervening terrain and tanks as much as possible.
As long as you're BEHIND area terrain, you can't be targeted. If you're IN it, you get a cover save (try to stay in the 4+ neighborhood).

Another important factor is to have higher priority targets that are tougher.

If your tanks can soak up a few units of bolters because your opponent wants to target your Leman Russ with the Lascannon he has in the unit, then all the better for your Riders.


Where a Power Weapon being "iffy" is concerned... I guess it's personal taste. I'm primarily a SM/CSM player, with a little Sisters on the side... So, it seems like a bargain to me to see a unit of 10 models at less than 200 points with a power weapon.

Eric

Anyone care to explain what the PW vet sarge is actually for? I don't see why you'd spend the points on this.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Anyone care to explain what the PW vet sarge is actually for? I don't see why you'd spend the points on this.

A well played unit of Riders will get their full complement into combat. Even if not, I've never lost more than 2 before hitting combat.

So, 8 Riders Charge, getting 16 attacks, or so.
When the opponent strikes back, he will likely kill some models, but not all.
So, now, you have a model with, IIRC, 2 attacks holding a power weapon and a bunch of ablative wounds. Sure, he'll need a 5 to wound many armies... but it's still there as a possibility.

I've gotten lucky rolls with this guy & taken out power armor on EVERY attack.

I don't play IG, except when playing LatD or, now, FW Renegades (no Riders there), so I don't know their details off hand. I THINK that, with the Vet Sgt, you get the OPTION to buy the lance.
If that's the case, don't buy the lance. Buy the PWeapon & use it from the get-go.

It's been an extremely valuable piece in every game I've played them or against them.


Eric

MM:

A well played unit of Riders will get their full complement into combat. Even if not, I've never lost more than 2 before hitting combat.

So, 8 Riders Charge, getting 16 attacks, or so.
When the opponent strikes back, he will likely kill some models, but not all.
So, now, you have a model with, IIRC, 2 attacks holding a power weapon and a bunch of ablative wounds. Sure, he'll need a 5 to wound many armies... but it's still there as a possibility.

Is that all? Seems underwhelming to me. The added utility from the extra 11 points you spend is a joke.

I've gotten lucky rolls with this guy & taken out power armor on EVERY attack.

So what? Almost any option has the potential to be awesome if you roll ridiculously well. Doesn't make it worthwhile.

I THINK that, with the Vet Sgt, you get the OPTION to buy the lance.
If that's the case, don't buy the lance. Buy the PWeapon & use it from the get-go.

Not so IIRC. You must buy the lance.

I agree. After the first round the RR's are dead anyway, so why bother with an S3 power weapon?

6-8 per squad, no more and they become hard to hide, and even at 8 they're difficult to keep out of LOS.

BYE

I almost never field more than 6 per squad, but I consider them to be my ace in the hole. They are dirt cheap with a vet (for LD8 and +1 A) and lances, and hit harder than anything else in the IG codex. Keep in mind, small squads will only kill 3-4 MEQs on average, which means sometimes they don't do anything, but if you're tied up in combat, they can bail you out.

IMO their utility is higher the more infantry you have on the board. The reason is that when you have a more elite/mechanzied force, you can deploy far enough apart to prevent consolidation chain charges. With hordes, it's harder, and you need the RRs to actually end a combat.

General conscences is to buy them.. So now the next question buy 6, 8 or 10?

I'd go eight. Ten is too hard to hide. You'll probably be fielding either six or eight in any given list.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:MM:

A well played unit of Riders will get their full complement into combat. Even if not, I've never lost more than 2 before hitting combat.

So, 8 Riders Charge, getting 16 attacks, or so.
When the opponent strikes back, he will likely kill some models, but not all.
So, now, you have a model with, IIRC, 2 attacks holding a power weapon and a bunch of ablative wounds. Sure, he'll need a 5 to wound many armies... but it's still there as a possibility.

Is that all? Seems underwhelming to me. The added utility from the extra 11 points you spend is a joke.

Wow.
You're so right.

Spending 11 points more so that a 19 point model could take out an amount of Terminators sure isn't worth it. I mean, at 40 points each, CSM Termies are just like fighting big pillows. Killing some with a power weapon from a 19 point model would be really stupid.

Far better to let them get into HtH combat with your tank and let your tank fight them off.

I think this comes down to personal experience and taste. MM I can see the merits of a powerweapon vet sgt in the unit as it does kinda allow the unit to be something other than a 1 hit wonder. But also remember that even without the lances, you sill have a very fast squad of guardsmen that is now either going to hide to deny VP or to run off and fleet to an objective for an army that usually has a hard time with objectives.

MagickalMemories wrote:

tegeus-Cromis wrote:MM:

A well played unit of Riders will get their full complement into combat. Even if not, I've never lost more than 2 before hitting combat.

So, 8 Riders Charge, getting 16 attacks, or so.
When the opponent strikes back, he will likely kill some models, but not all.
So, now, you have a model with, IIRC, 2 attacks holding a power weapon and a bunch of ablative wounds. Sure, he'll need a 5 to wound many armies... but it's still there as a possibility.

Is that all? Seems underwhelming to me. The added utility from the extra 11 points you spend is a joke.

Wow.
You're so right.

Spending 11 points more so that a 19 point model could take out an amount of Terminators sure isn't worth it. I mean, at 40 points each, CSM Termies are just like fighting big pillows. Killing some with a power weapon from a 19 point model would be really stupid.

Far better to let them get into HtH combat with your tank and let your tank fight them off.

Your sarcasm would be so much more effective if your argument were stronger. Spending 11 points to kill terminators sounds good, but the important question is whether the investment of 11 points is likely to see a return. We can do hypothetical scenarios all day to support either side of the debate, but I think investing in lances only is the better option, and if it is inferior, the difference is so slight that your sarcasm is inappropriate.

The unit is a one-hit wonder. Do what you can to make that hit count the most (i.e. max on lances). After that, you've either killed the unit or failed to finish them off. If they are dead, the unit is a fairly mobile objective-grabber...they aren't an effective fighting force any more, power weapon or no. If they are still in combat, I want them to die in the opponent's melee phase so I can shoot the survivors.

Come on now. You really believe 2 WS3 S3 attacks vs terminators are going to net you a terminator? 4's, 5's, and 5's aren't good odds. Given the odds that your unit will be gutted *before* the second round of combat, and smart space marine players will just punk you with regular attacks vs your T3 5+ save guys...and/or you'll run...

It's really pushing it. Is it worth those points? I don't think it is, not for the reason listed.

Against low toughness armies like IG or Tau, sure it's not bad then but in general even a tactical squad will beat you in combat once the lances are used up. Termies? I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable you'll get anything out of it.

For me, that's reason enough not to bother.

I tend to concur.

MM, you do realise that each attack has a 1/9 chance of actually killing a Termie? It gets worse, naturally, if they're marked.

6 lancers is best, in my way of thinkinging. Charge in, kill expensive stuff at high I, then die the next turn to clear the way for your shooting.

Remember that IG isn't an assualt army, it's a shooty army. You don't want those assualts you do make to last long, you want to die on the second round of combat.

Grimaldi wrote:Your sarcasm would be so much more effective if your argument were stronger. Spending 11 points to kill terminators sounds good, but the important question is whether the investment of 11 points is likely to see a return. We can do hypothetical scenarios all day to support either side of the debate, but I think investing in lances only is the better option, and if it is inferior, the difference is so slight that your sarcasm is inappropriate.

The unit is a one-hit wonder. Do what you can to make that hit count the most (i.e. max on lances). After that, you've either killed the unit or failed to finish them off. If they are dead, the unit is a fairly mobile objective-grabber...they aren't an effective fighting force any more, power weapon or no. If they are still in combat, I want them to die in the opponent's melee phase so I can shoot the survivors.

The strength of my pro argument lies in the same basis of the con arguments. Opinion AND fact. It's a fact that IG units are weak in HtH. It's an opinion that you want them to die in turn 2. Some people want more staying power to hold the enemy off as long as possible to be able to deal with other, potentially more harmful, threats without having a mid-range threat quite so close.

My example re: terminators was just that. An example. the hypotheticals, as you rightly state, can go on all day.
I find the "one hit wonder" statement arguable, as well. It all depends on who they're fighting. Personally, I see them as a very effective objective GRABBER... it's holding on to the abjective that will give them the problem. they aren't strong enough to withstand much shooting and hiding a unit is difficult, at best. Also, in the games I play, objectives are more often counters than quarters. To get to that counter, they're usually out in the open.

Also, when you (collectively, not just you personally) talk about having them die in the opponents combat phase, I generally agree (I usually face MEQ's in my group). You don't always get the option of charging with the Riders, though. If you have them equipped to die in turn 2, you'd better hope they weren't charged in turn 1. That puts the rest of your army in potential danger. A power weapon on the sarge isn't likely to change that result against tougher foes. What it does do is give you a shot at poking someone's eye out in defiance before you go down in flames.

Stelek wrote:Come on now. You really believe 2 WS3 S3 attacks vs terminators are going to net you a terminator? 4's, 5's, and 5's aren't good odds. Given the odds that your unit will be gutted *before* the second round of combat, and smart space marine players will just punk you with regular attacks vs your T3 5+ save guys...and/or you'll run...

It's really pushing it. Is it worth those points? I don't think it is, not for the reason listed.

Against low toughness armies like IG or Tau, sure it's not bad then but in general even a tactical squad will beat you in combat once the lances are used up. Termies? I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable you'll get anything out of it.

For me, that's reason enough not to bother.

I DO think it's worth it. Very worth it.
Granted, I used Termies as an example and not Eldar, Sisters, Tau, etc... but that was strictly because they were the extreme end of the spectrum.

Sure, it's not HIGH on the probability scale... but the possibility is there. For the points, I can't reason NOT taking it. Granted, I'd have taken the upgrade to veteran (or whatever the-F they're called) anyway, for the Ld boost, so the added points are minimal. As has been said, you want them in combat until the 2nd round (presuming you charged), so the Ld boost is helpful. Three power weapon attacks is a nice thing to have in your back pocket... even at a WS & S of 3.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:MM, you do realise that each attack has a 1/9 chance of actually killing a Termie? It gets worse, naturally, if they're marked.

I didn't do the math... but that's about right.
So, then, look at his probability with his base 3 attacks (off hand weapon).
VERY worth it, IMO.

As for Marked termies... Well, that depends.
On a MoCG (or, as we call it, the "Glory-Hole" mark), there's no change.
On a MoK unit, it doesn't change, either.
On a MoS unit, only the initiative bump is a factor.
On a MoT, it's just as easy to CAUSE the wound, it's the 50/50 Invul save that's the issue
On a MoN unit.... Eee gads... Except under the most desperate of circumstances you shouldn't EVER get Rough Riders into HtH with them. That T5 is beastly.
They should be shot until they are nothing but a green and red mist.

Either way, however, I still think it's worth it for such a small points investment.

On top of all that, termies aside, you don't typically KNOW what you'll be facing and an army should be built to best represent itself against all comers. Taking advantage of the opportunity to have a power weapon in a unit that you know is meant for combat and will probably last long enough to use it... at least once... seems to me to be a no-brainer.

Imagine if you drew against IG and not MEQ's and your Riders managed to assault another IG unit. On the 2nd & 3rd round of combat, when your Sarge is swinging a knife and a broken stick, you'll be thinking how much better he'd be doing if you DID have a power weapon.

Spacewolverine wrote:General conscences is to buy them.. So now the next question buy 6, 8 or 10?

Honestly, my opinion is 12.
I'm not saying you'll FIELD twelve... but this way, you can model all their available options in case you ever WANT to use them, and you'll be able to field 2 units of 6 or a unit of 10, too. Again... not suggesting you should ever do EITHER... I'm just saying that's what I'd do (then again, I tend to collect every model I MIGHT use, just so I have it. I'm "peculiar" like that).



That might be an important distinction to make, now that I think of it.
We're all discussing how to equip the Riders but we haven't talked unit size in relation to equipment yet.

I would never play a unit of riders @ les than 8 models, and I'd prefer 10 models. My gaming group pretty much plays the same way, except in an "I wonder what would happen if I..." list. That way, when they're getting shot to sh!t, they still have enough models to get into HtH and do some damage. If you're fielding a minimum sized unit, a power weapon probably isn't the way to go because, as you've all said, the Sarge isn't likely to live to use it.

Eric

P.S. "Sarge" is a generic term I use to refer to "the guy in charge."

I didn't do the math... but that's about right.
So, then, look at his probability with his base 3 attacks (off hand weapon).
VERY worth it, IMO.

He doesn't have three attacks unless he's charging. The lance, which he must buy, is a two-handed weapon.

As for Marked termies... Well, that depends.
On a MoCG (or, as we call it, the "Glory-Hole" mark), there's no change.
On a MoK unit, it doesn't change, either.
On a MoS unit, only the initiative bump is a factor.
On a MoT, it's just as easy to CAUSE the wound, it's the 50/50 Invul save that's the issue
On a MoN unit.... Eee gads... Except under the most desperate of circumstances you shouldn't EVER get Rough Riders into HtH with them. That T5 is beastly.

Obviously I was talking about the two durability-enhancing Marks.

Since I was talking about unsaved wounds, I don't see why it should matter that it's "just as easy to cause the wound". The final odds are what I care about.

You should never charge RRs into Nurgle Termies? Bollocks. You're still wounding them on a 4+ with lances. RRs are still a good solution. They may not get their points back outright as they do against some other units, but you work with what you've got. Just don't count on that precious PW of yours accomplishing jack in future rounds of combat (not that it will accomplish anything usually, either) even if they do survive.

On top of all that, termies aside, you don't typically KNOW what you'll be facing and an army should be built to best represent itself against all comers. Taking advantage of the opportunity to have a power weapon in a unit that you know is meant for combat and will probably last long enough to use it... at least once... seems to me to be a no-brainer.

Which goes to show you aren't considering this logically. PW + the opportunity to use it "at least once" should not = instant yes, as you say it does. Consider cost and likely returns. (Never mind the fact that it isn't a given that he'll get to use it at all.)

Imagine if you drew against IG and not MEQ's and your Riders managed to assault another IG unit. On the 2nd & 3rd round of combat, when your Sarge is swinging a knife and a broken stick, you'll be thinking how much better he'd be doing if you DID have a power weapon.

I'd be glad I paid 11 points to get one more attack and ignore those sweet, sweet 5+ saves, allowing me to kill more GUARDSMEN? No, I don't think so.

I do a vet for +1 LD, in case they get shot up and lose more than half, so I have >50% on the check, because they are not always, actually rarely, close enough to my LD bubble.

and the +1A.

for 6pts I think they are worth it.

Now, I definately don't do the PW because the vet serg is the first to die in the second round of combat, so I know they will break and run away, exposing the enemy to my fire. Same reason I don't do the Honorifica that some people talk about.

He doesn't have three attacks unless he's charging. The lance, which he must buy, is a two-handed weapon.

Hmm. I must've read my IG Codex wrong last night.
I thought, for sure, the codex said that he already had 2 attacks, which would mean 3 on the charge AND 3 with a power weapon on following rounds, since he had a CCW already.

Obviously I was talking about the two durability-enhancing Marks.

Obviously... I mean, you were so concise. Then, there's my mind reading ability... I was simply covering all the bases by listing every mark. My comments weren't just for your benefit. There are gamers out there who aren't as familiar with every facet of the game as you are.

Which goes to show you aren't considering this logically. PW + the opportunity to use it "at least once" should not = instant yes, as you say it does. Consider cost and likely returns. (Never mind the fact that it isn't a given that he'll get to use it at all.)

I absolutely am considering it logically. Obviously just not according to your logic.

I'd be glad I paid 11 points to get one more attack and ignore those sweet, sweet 5+ saves, allowing me to kill more GUARDSMEN? No, I don't think so.

Hey. Even a 5+ saves a third of the time. No save will always = no save. Kill 2 extra IG and you get your points back & more.

t-C, I don't begrudge you your opinion, and I don't claim you to be wrong. Keep in mind, however, that this all comes down to opinions. They can never be truly right OR wrong.

Eric

I thought, for sure, the codex said that he already had 2 attacks, which would mean 3 on the charge AND 3 with a power weapon on following rounds, since he had a CCW already.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not an IG player myself), but I recall that the lance replaces it.

Obviously... I mean, you were so concise. Then, there's my mind reading ability... I was simply covering all the bases by listing every mark.

Okay, fair enough, and sorry for not being clear. I thought it could be taken for granted that when I talk about Marks making Termies harder to kill, I'm referring to those Marks that actually have something to do with making them harder to kill. Shows what I know.

I absolutely am considering it logically. Obviously just not according to your logic.

Maybe you are considering it logically inside your head, but your expression of your thought process in words wasn't logical. "Taking advantage of the opportunity to have a power weapon in a unit that you know is meant for combat and will probably last long enough to use it... at least once... seems to me to be a no-brainer" implies (and I use this word in the strictest sense) that so long as A is true and B is true, then the option is a no-brainer. This can't be right.

Hey. Even a 5+ saves a third of the time. No save will always = no save. Kill 2 extra IG and you get your points back & more.

A normal RR attack (that is, no lance, no PW) averages 0.167 Guardsmen kills. A vet sarge with PW averages 0.5 Guardsmen kills per round of combat. To kill 2 extra Guardsmen, he'd need to fight 6 rounds of combat on average. Do you see that happening?

RR sarges get 2 attacks and lose the CC weapon when they take a lance.

PW on IG stink. There's a reason people don't bring them along, after all. They also bring other CC units (Sisters, Daemonhunters, Assassins, Kroot) because PW's on guard are so horrible. That's also the reason guard can use so many potential allies for CC duty--they are junkers at it.

Stelek wrote:RR sarges get 2 attacks and lose the CC weapon when they take a lance.

I don't play IG (though I play AGAINST them LOL), so I don't know the answer to this question off of the top of my head.
Stelek, I trust you enough to know that you'll either answer because you KNOW the answer or you'll look it up first.

Do they LOSE the CCW when they take the lance, or do they just not get to USE it with a lance? If they don't LOSE it, then they can use it on round 2.

Also, aren't they LasPistol/CCW? If so, they can use the pistol in their off hand.

I don't disagree about there being better units, but that's not what this topic is about. It's specifically about Rough Riders.


Eric

You replace either the LP or CCW when you take the lance. You then lose whichever one you had left when you take the PW.

You get CCW/Laspistol to start with.

If you upgrade to a power weapon, you lose either the CCW or the Laspistol.

If you upgrade any squad member to hunting lances, the sarge has to take one--and you upgrade either the CCW or the Laspistol.

Since the Hunting Lance is 2 handed, and you are left with only one 1 handed weapon, you can't get the bonus.

This is part of why no one upgrades to a vet, and no one takes extra gear for him.

Not worth the time of day really.