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For preliminaries, I'd like to say hello, as this is my first post here. I believe, however, in getting straight down to brass tacks, so let me explain my situation

I've been a Guard player for about a year now. During that year, I've had absolutely no success whatsoever against any opponent that I haven't immediately laughed upon seeing what they deploy. I've been utterly crushed repeatedly, and I really have no idea why. I'm fairly certain my army building passes muster, but to verify I wanted to post a few lists to see if they qualify as optimized, and if not, to recieve criticism regarding what exactly I'm doing wrong. Show no mercy whatsoever, if you don't mind.

1500

Doctrines

Veterans
Iron Discipline
Close-Order Drill
Drop Troops

HQ

HSO, ID
Standard Bearer

FS Squad: 3x autocannon
FS Squad: 3x autocannon

Elites

5-man Vet squad, 3x plas
5-man Vet squad, 3x plas

Troops

Platoon A

led by JO, HonoImp, ID

Squad 1: Las/plas
Squad 2: Las/plas

Platoon B

led by JO w/ bolter
2x plas

Squad 1: Las/plas
Squad 2: Las/plas

Fast Attack

6-man RR squad w/ lance

Heavy Support

3x LRMBT, tri-bolter configuration, extra armor, smoke

Total: 1497 pts

The autocannons may be seen as the weak link here, but I like them for a few reasons. Their range allows them to stay outside the return fire range of most enemy anti-infantry weapons (heavy bolter devastators, I'm looking at you), are your best bet vs enemy transports (falcon, I'm looking at you), and owing to that range will tend to perform as well as heavy bolters vs hordes. Lastly, they are one of the best weapons IG have vs MEQ sitting in cover. Still, however, I am happy to take suggestions for their replacement. Hellhounds may be an option.


1750

Doctrines

Veterans
Close-Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Drop Troops

HQ

HSO w/ ID
Standard Bearer

Elites

5-man Vet squad w/ 3x plas
5-man Vet squad w/ 3x plas
5-man Vet squad w/ 3x melta

Troops

Platoon A

led by JO w/ HonoImp, ID

Squad 1: Las/plas
Squad 2: Las/plas

Platoon B

led by JO

Squad 1: Las/plas
Squad 2: Las/plas

AF Squad: Las/plas
Chimera w/ multilaser, HB, smoke, extra armor

AF Squad: Las/plas
Chimera w/ multilaser, HB, smoke, extra armor

Fast Attack

6-man RR squad w/ lance

Heavy Support

3x LRMBT, tri-bolter configuration, extra armor, smoke

Total: 1747 pts

Same basic story here, but the autocannons are gone in lieu of a couple chims who come with a couple extra squads for my firebase. One vet squad substitutes plasma for melta, since Land Raiders as a target for suicide squads become more of a possibility at this point level.


Comments and criticism are much appreciated.

Take this with a little salt, as I've only toyed with the idea of playing Guard, but looking at your list here's what I see:

First off, the fire support squads seem really nice, but in an era where things can't be screened I'm betting they're the first things your opponents take out, and they cost a hell of a lot of points. You may also kill something with every turn you fire, but that's a lot of fire going one way when those weapons could be split up.

I guess what I'm saying is that, rules as they are, squads of guard with multiple heavy weapons become targets and point sinks more than they become useful.

Why the Honorifica on the JO? Or the bolter on the other? I'm assuming you play lots of MEqs with the plasma you're taking on the command squads, but that means a) they'll want to shoot and thus be in LOS and b) they're targets. You want your JO's to be neither, they should be providing leadership well behind cover. Also, flamers are almost too nice an option to take a bunch of on that unit as a counter to advancing units.

The vets are a bit of a point sink too in my mind, if they're a sacrificial drop unit then I'd recommend Meltas for tank busting over plasmas for the amount of points they recoup. There's few situations where you can make up for the cost of the vets shooting 3+ or better save infantry, many more opportunities to take out a 200pt tank before the vets bite it. You may have one too many squads in the 2nd list if not the 1st.

I also question the Riders, they were the cats meow in 3rd but once again, no screen + vulnerable troops that need to be in danger areas to be effective.

If you free up those points you have lots of options. More troops, hellhounds/sentinels (mostly because I like sentinels) but that's better covered by someone who knows the army better.

i would recommend dropping the autocannon squads from the first list and adding more infantry. also, check your calculations, as both lists seem to come up short of the actual total.

Id like to start off by saying I like your idea with ID and the honorifica Imperialis so I would keep working with that, but past that I think theres alot of wasted points in your list starting with the plasmas. I mean correct me if im wrong but I count 10 plasmas, I mean why? Its a great idea, works well against marines buuut what else could you do with those points? If you took them because you play alot of marines give each of your sergeants power swords, or just field almost another 2 full squads of guardsmen, marines armour is tough but an extra 28 angry flashlight shots (rapid fired) has a far better chance of wiping out those marines than a unpredictable plasma ( you figure you still have to hit and if you roll a 1 you might kill yourself). Also why the extra armour and smokes on your leman russ? Look at it this way if your tank cant shoot its worthless anyways why waist those points on being able to reposition a tank that will have minimal effect on the game as it wont get to shoot for a round (and it will probably continue to be shot for more rounds until it blows up anyways.) Also smoke grenades? please dont tell me you push your tanks forward, as a guard player you cant afford to move towards your enemy as it may cost you a whole round of shooting since the get a good fleet roll and assault into a turn earlier. Keep in mind every opposing army fields a version of anti-tank so yes smoke makes all hits glancing woopty crap, if they roll an average 3 even with EA you cant shoot anything so you spend I beleive 20 points extra on each tank for nothing besides handiong your opponent easy victory points, you always have to give your opponent something to kill and guard player's tanks are always painted with a big "Shoot Me" so dont add to their cost minimize the damages and run more of other things to counter the loss of a tank. Id also tend to agree with everyone on the autocannons, although I love them I would run heavy bolters in your army and maybe add an anti tank squad or two with the points your saving, I mean besides your melta's whick like the plasma pistols is risky this time because you have to deep strike them in, I dont beleive you can really mess with any heavy armour. Your rough riders, why? theyre not a big enough unit to have an effect and they have no future support so
they're only going to tie up an enemy unit for 1 full turn, which is horrible for you, great you charge and kill like 3 marines (assuming theyre not in cover and dont get to strike first anyways) BUT theyll wipe you out on your turn and get to escape a whole turn where you could have been lighting them up with those angry flashlights / heavy bolters. Well I hope ive been some help ill check back in later.

WOAH dude, some line breaks are always a good idea, even when making a quality post .

I second the point on the Russ loadouts. All smoke does is reduce your chance of being penned on an AV14 front, it takes away your shooting for a turn, and since they'll most likely glance you with the smoke on that's two full turns of not shooting a tank. And you want to pay points for that? Ditto for the extra armour, though I see maybe some more utility.

You never know when your tanks will have to go for an objective. Extra Armour is a standard. Use it while you can still get it for 5 points

Keep the smoke, comes in handy on those turns when you've already been shaken or stunned and can't shoot anyways. Keep the extra armor so that you don't lose mobility when stunned. That way you can scoot and smoke, making him waste even more shots on you if he shoots at the tank. If he doesn't shoot cause you're smoked, all to the better.

Re a couple of Accuracy's suggestions, most IG sgts cannot have power weapons. Yes, RR are a one-shot wonder, but they will usually kill more than 3 marines on the charge. And often, all you need to do is tie up that unit for one round so that you can reposition other assets to deal with them. I personally don't use them (rather have more guys with big guns), but lots of people swear by them.

IMO, 1500 point list, not enough guys. Only four 10-man squads, should be about six of them.

Also, what is the main purpose of the Autocannon squads? Anti-Infantry or anti-vehicle? If infantry, switch two ACs in each squad for Heavy Bolters. That would also free up enough points to give two more plasma guns to that JO squad or to drop Heavy bolters into the HQ and Honorifica squads. I'd recommend one of the vet squads be meltas instead of plasma.

1750 should have seven, so you're a good bit closer there. Other comments remain pretty much the same.

Smoke is a great investment of three points on a Russ. It keeps the tank alive the turn after taking a hit almost without fail. Besides, dropping it on all three gives me the points for a guardsman and a half or a grenade launcher. Extra armor is a little more dubious, but when my tank gets hit I like to reposition it to try to get better firing angles or neutralize some enemy AT by getting away from it.

Really, the autocannons are something I put in as a relic from my all infantry days. AllInf NEEDS the things in bulk since they're so effective against so many things. I shoot them at hordes, light vehicles, and marines in cover. Against marines in cover, they're one of the best weapons we have, third only to the multilaser and heavy bolter, both of which are too short range to be weapons of choice for that purpose... Unless you're bringing an absolute gakload of the things, that is.

In defense of plas on dropping vets: Plasma is better against everything, infantry and vehicles alike, except the land raider and the monolith.

In terms of the RR work out the math 6 rough riders=12 attacks 4+ to hit= 6 hits 3+ to wound= 4 wounds again assuming they were not in cover, and that they didnt carry an invulnerable or a feel no pain. and even against a marine army 4x say 15 points a model = 60 points, and you spent 66 on the rough riders. So even against a prime target you wont get your points back out of them unless they perform better than the statistically should.

If you like your smokes id say go for it especially if you have the points because theyre not that much more, but the EA has to go because regardless of whether or not you can move they going to keep shooting your tank until its dead anyways.

Also on the categories of things plasma suck against is also the battle wagon for the orkies which is 14 all around as well. so you figure thats 4 armies out of 8 that have a unit that they cant even hurt.

I have to confess to being at a loss as to why 66 points isn't a good investment to knock down four MEQ that have reached my lines and are in assault. That many kills can easily turn a unit that will win the game for my opponent into something guardsman bayonets can handle. Feel no pain is a total non-issue; re-read the rules for power weapons and feel no pain.

Cheers on the battlewagon comment, and I'd also like to throw in multi-wound T4 models. I think there are enough exceptions now to mix up my vets - melta on at least one of my squads.

Lastly, extra armor: a five point upgrade that lets my tank move when it's stunned is a bad investment? I'm not seeing it. What do you suggest in its stead that is a better investment? I contend that a plasma gun and a half don't stand any better a chance of being beneficial in the long run.

Personally for me Rough Riders always perform well. But before I make any suggestions for your list, let me ask a couple of questions.

How are you losing your battles?
Do opposing assault troops get into your lines and tear through your troops?
Do you feel yourself lacking in firepower during the shooting phase?
Are you not able to capture objectives?
Do you deploy in a Castle in one corner?
Do you typically play with 25% terrain or more?

Accuracy by Volume:

In terms of the RR work out the math 6 rough riders=12 attacks 4+ to hit= 6 hits 3+ to wound= 4 wounds again assuming they were not in cover, and that they didnt carry an invulnerable or a feel no pain. and even against a marine army 4x say 15 points a model = 60 points, and you spent 66 on the rough riders. So even against a prime target you wont get your points back out of them unless they perform better than the statistically should.

Thing is, basic Marines are not really a "prime target". Barring Drop Pods, what are basic Marines doing within RR range anyway? You take RRs to countercharge nasty assault troops, not go picking fights with las/plas squads. At the very least, I'd expect them to be charging a medium-tier unit like oh, Raptors, and they'll get their points back there.

My most embarassing losses are vs shooty vanilla marines. They just stood there and outshot me, and I to this day have no idea how it happened. VS other opponents... Tau I've never really had a problem with, nor Chaos. Nids I've never beaten. Eldar, it really depends. Falcon/prism heavy mech eldar, especially with scorps, decimate me every time, though I suppose that's to be expected.

I have composed a couple army lists to address this lack of firepower, while sticking to my all-infantry roots. I suppose I ought to post it here for the hell of it. Relic forums decided the list couldn't beat mech eldar, pod marines, and land raiders. New orks may be a bit of a problem, though less of one if their battlewagons can't have smoke.

I've already anticipated what the most common criticism will be - preponderance of dedicated heavy weapon teams. I consider it a necessary evil in putting together a list that is actually capable of hammering the enemy into oblivion and standing a reasonable shot at keeping enemy assault units at bay. Additionally, it keeps table space from being at such a premium, which I find to be a major weakness of all-infantry IG lists.



Doctrines
Close-Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Veterans
Heavy Weapon Platoons

HQ

Command Platoon:

led by HSO w/ ID
3x plas

Fire support team: 3x autocannon
Fire support team: 3x autocannon
Anti-tank team: 3x lascannon
Anti-tank team: 3x lascannon

Elites

6-man vet squad, 3x plas
6-man vet squad, 3x plas
6-man vet squad, 3x plas

Troops

Platoon A

led by JO w/ HonoImp, ID
3x plas

Squad 1: las/plas
Squad 2: HB/flamer
Squad 3: HB/flamer

Platoon B

led by JO
4x plas

Squad 1: las/plas
Squad 2: HB/flamer
Squad 3: HB/flamer

Heavy Support

Heavy Weapons Platoon

led by JO
4x plas

Anti-tank team: 3x lascannon
Anti-tank team: 3x lascannon


Final Tally
1748 pts
134 bodies
14 lascannon
4 heavy bolter
6 autocannon
25 plasma guns

Commentary

The playstyle here should be fairly straightforward. I bring enough plasma to pound anything you bring too close into oblivion. I've also got 20 heavy weapons with a four-foot range, meaning the only things you have that can strike without getting into plasma range are your lascannons, missile launchers, autocannons, and artillery. In essence, this lists bets I can do enough damage to your forces to win the VP race, since you have to brave the sea of plasma to get into range with anything other than what amounts to your anti-tank weapons and token artillery.

HB/flamer line squads serve as fodder for any assault troops stupid enough to get too close.


Doctrines
Close-order Drill
Iron Discipline
Heavy Weapon Platoons

HQ

Command Platoon

led by HSO w/ ID

Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon
Anti-tank Team: 3x lascannon
Anti-tank Team: 3x lascannon

Troops

Platoon A

led by JO w/ HonoImp, ID

Squad 1: HB/flamer
Squad 2: ML/plas

Platoon B

led by JO
2x plas

Squad 1: HB/flamer
Squad 2: ML/plas

Heavy Support

Heavy Weapons Platoon A

led by JO
2x plas

Anti-tank Team: 3x lascannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon

Heavy Weapons Platoon B

led by JO
2x plas

Anti-tank Team: 3x lascannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon

Heavy Weapons Platoon C

led by JO
2x plas

Anti-tank Team: 3x lascannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon
Fire Support Team: 3x autocannon

Final Tally
1993 pts
148 bodies
10 plasma guns
2 missile launchers
2 heavy bolters
15 lascannons
24 autocannons

Commentary

Again, straightforward. I shoot you to hell and back, and from a distance that keeps me safe from your anti-GEQ weapons. I don't have quite the weight of plasma that I do in the previous list, but I make up for it with an utterly absurd number of autocannons. I'm carrying enough to, on average, crush a tac squad per turn. I'm fragile to return fire, but devastating on the offense, and the fact that I can nullify those nasty heavy bolter dev squads in one turn of shooting is a boon.

Weaknesses here are terminators en masse, since I don't have quite enough AP2 to deal with them well. Additionally, I wouldn't be very comfortable vs zilla nids, since I only have 25 AP2 weapons. Same logic as the above, really.

Some modifications I've considered are going mass HB instead, with anti-tank weapons relegated to line squads. Also, there's the light infantry option: give up a few guns to deploy my heavies after all your dangerous stuff is already on the table. Lastly, I need to splash melta in the currently all-plas vet squads, as it has already been shown that melta is more of a necessity than these lists originally considered it to be.

I'll post in a bit. There's alot going on here.

Ok here ya go. Keep in mind my views are based on my own success. Starting with a critique first, then I'll give you a list.

COD and ID are just no damn good. Here's why: You raise the cost of your cheap troops to unacceptable levels. Let your men run, get shot down, run down, etc. If you play them correctly, it won't matter one damn bit.

HI and SB are also no good. HSO same thing. You don't NEED these guys. You cannot compete in the HQ arena, don't try.

Las/Plas squads are no good in ANY army. Don't run them. Your army's job is to blow the other guy up before he gets to you, and flashlight humiliate the last standing termie to death.

AF squads are utter trash. They aren't mobile unless you get first turn, if you are hiding them behind terrain don't you end up the same place as a inf squad on foot would after moving out and getting blown up?

You have alot of unnecessary upgrades without improving your strength's overall capability. Let me show you a list that's got real kill power in it, compared to yours.

BTW if you have a HB and it isn't on a tank, don't bother.

1750 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster

0 Command Platoon @ 65 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [65] Pts
Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Sharpshooters; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x3); Autocannon

4 Hardened Veterans @ 75 Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun

4 Hardened Veterans @ 75 Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Lasgun

4 Hardened Veterans @ 75 Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun (x1); Meltagun (x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Lasgun

0 Infantry Platoon @ 257 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [67] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [27] Pts
Lasgun (x1); Flamer (x2); Autocannon
9 Infantry Squad @ [95] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [95] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW

0 Infantry Platoon @ 257 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [67] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [27] Pts
Lasgun (x1); Flamer (x2); Autocannon
9 Infantry Squad @ [95] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [95] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

0 Infantry Platoon @ 257 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [67] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [27] Pts
Lasgun (x1); Flamer (x2); Autocannon
9 Infantry Squad @ [95] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [95] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

1 Hellhound @ 115 Pts
Inferno Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter

1 Hellhound @ 115 Pts
Inferno Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter

1 Leman Russ Battle Tank @ 155 Pts
Battle Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter; Sponson Heavy Bolter

1 Leman Russ Battle Tank @ 155 Pts
Battle Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter; Sponson Heavy Bolter

1 Basilisk @ 145 Pts
Improved Comms; Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability
1 Improved Comms @ [20] Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1746

============================

Comments:

You have 6 flamers, 6 PG, 3 MG, 2 LR, 1 Basilisk, 6 Sharpshooter Lascannons, 8 Sharpshooter AC shots.

You don't have the mass firepower fire support squads offer, but you won't lose 3 weapons because someone farted in your general direction.

You don't need to make yourself so full of troops and weak-to-shooting shooty that you can't make any tactical decisions. You need to make what you do have, dangerous and hard to kill.

Having a few vets with drop troops gives you flexibility. You can effectively split this army into two firebases; optimizing your use of terrain while still able to support each firebase because of your reach (48") and not clogging up your deployment zone with 200 troops.

Want to take objectives? Screen a squad or two with your hellhounds, and move them forward. When the hound gets blown up, put the squad inside it and use the 4+ save to avoid getting shot off it.

A few quick hits, mostly in response to Stelek's posts:

1) COD and ID are both great. COD is free, and provides a small boost in HtH. ID is dirt cheap and can keep squads in the fight, as well as allowing you to rally squads under half strength. I never run my IG without ID, and only drop COD when I really want another doctrine.

2) Plasma guns cost 10 pts, have 24" range when stationary and can move and shoot twice. Even at BS3 they are a wonderful weapon, not only against meqs but against transports, bikes, termies, TMCs, and essentially any target in the game. Given the IG maxim of maxing special and heavies in line squads, your choices are limited to the short ranged flamer and melta, the poor grenade launcher, or the ubiquitious but versitile plasma. I would take them freely.

3) On the other hand, if dropping vets, I'd highly recommend meltas. Punching armor is a huge ability.

4) Rough riders aren't only the best counter charge unit in the IG codex, they are the best in the game. They are cheap, have strong high Initiative power weapon attacks on the charge, and have a 19-24" charge radius. While not critical to the IG, do not worry about taking them. Yes, they are highly vulnerable to shooting, but they can hide behind any terrain.

5) Heavy WEapon squads aren't as bad as many people seem to think. While they get better the more of them there are, 6 bodies buried deep in cover at long range are harder to root out then most people realize. While they are fragile, an anti-squad with lascannons, for example, is only 25 pts more than a las/plas infantry squad.

6) Between heavy weapon squads, command sections, and actual infantry squads, few armies will be able to realibly shoot up more than one or two such squads a turn, at least in the early stages of the game. Sure, one 5 man squad is fragile, but when you have 8 squads of 5 or 6 men, they can't all be wiped out every turn.

Tackling the OP's revised lists, I have a few notes:
1) Plasma is a great weapon, but it's not the only option. You have a lot of 4 plasma command sections, and while those are good, consider replacing two plasma weapons with a heavy. a good argument can be made about all IG squad being specialized, but command sections already serve two purposes: shooting and leadership. Adding an autocannon or missile launcher gives the squad long range punch while simultaneously keeping it as a more minor threat when compared to the lascannons all over the board.

2) Converesly, I would never give a command HQ special or heavy weapons, especially if you plump for an HSO. With so many small squads, you'll be taking a lot of morale tests. You want the LD9, you want the ID, and you're going to want a standard (notably absent). Giving the squad weapons merely exposes the lynchpin of your morale to fire, and I can assure you, your opponenet will shoot at your boss and/or Flag.

3) Always buy sharpshooters for heavy weapon squads. While SS is at best ok for line squads because it doesn't boost plasma, 10pts can allow a lot of rerolls for your heavy weapons. It's a cheap way to increase your volume of heavy weapon fire.

4) HB/flamer squads are pretty decent. They are good objective grabbers, bodies to throw into assault, a screen, and can, if necessary, deep strike. I like them, but you may have a few more than you need.

All infantry guard is a fun build, and I think you've got some good ideas. It may not be optimal, but it's certainly worth a try.

Agree fully on plasma in ld 9 bubble squads. I hadn't thought that through fully. I like the concept the above two lists offer because a heavy weapons platoon is more survivable than a russ, and kill a hell of a lot more than a russ. Modifications to the specifics are still necessary, however.

Regarding Stelek's suggestions, I don't mean to be an ass, but all his credibility went away in line one. ID and COD no good? Riiiiiiight...

1) I've never lost to a guard army with those 2 pony tricks. It's rarely helped me when I've run it. Thus, I'm unimpressed with it.

2/3) If you drop, why not take PG and scare MC and Termies to death? You can still knock out vehicles with PG. 1 unit with meltas is enough I think, given the 6 sharpshooter lascannons.

4) Oh that's an opinion. Against Orks, RR are utter gak. Against Wyches, Stealers, Harlies...yeah. Utter gak. So, they cannot be the 'best'. They are good in various situations. I'm of the opinion that tar pits and counter attack units are pretty useless if you play your IG the way I would. Shoot enemy until dead. Split your firebase so 1 assault unit cannot ruin your day.

5) HW Squads are easily destroyed and/or chased off the board. Even 1 heavy bolter is a serious threat. Come on, give realistic advice.

6) Besides Chaos, how many armies can put out enough firepower to either eliminate a command squad or force a test every turn on more than 6 squads? I know all of my armies can do so. You think that's protection? Not for an entire game. Not even for 2 turns it isn't. You need lots of bodies to stop it. Minimum sized squads better be secondary to your army else they're going to get ripped up.

On your notes:

2) His original list had a standard, I believe.

3) It's 'at best' ok? Seems like an odd thing to say, since you have to pay for the Sharpshooters on EVERY HW squad....making them more expensive, and since they die every game, I hope those first turn and second turn shots (if you get any) are worth the extra points. Or are you just buying 1 HW squad and not a whole platoon of them? I'd rather have a LR.

4) HB in IG are horrible. What, you might kill an Ork? Gee...sign me up for that one. lol

Right. They're so good, they're winning you so many games you came to dakka looking for advice, and I'm lacking credibility? Quite a neat thing to say.

I hope your RR, HB, and your cute doctrines do wonders for you in breaking your streak.

Stelek wrote:1) I've never lost to a guard army with those 2 pony tricks. It's rarely helped me when I've run it. Thus, I'm unimpressed with it.

2/3) If you drop, why not take PG and scare MC and Termies to death? You can still knock out vehicles with PG. 1 unit with meltas is enough I think, given the 6 sharpshooter lascannons.

4) Oh that's an opinion. Against Orks, RR are utter gak. Against Wyches, Stealers, Harlies...yeah. Utter gak. So, they cannot be the 'best'. They are good in various situations. I'm of the opinion that tar pits and counter attack units are pretty useless if you play your IG the way I would. Shoot enemy until dead. Split your firebase so 1 assault unit cannot ruin your day.

5) HW Squads are easily destroyed and/or chased off the board. Even 1 heavy bolter is a serious threat. Come on, give realistic advice.

6) Besides Chaos, how many armies can put out enough firepower to either eliminate a command squad or force a test every turn on more than 6 squads? I know all of my armies can do so. You think that's protection? Not for an entire game. Not even for 2 turns it isn't. You need lots of bodies to stop it. Minimum sized squads better be secondary to your army else they're going to get ripped up.

On your notes:

2) His original list had a standard, I believe.

3) It's 'at best' ok? Seems like an odd thing to say, since you have to pay for the Sharpshooters on EVERY HW squad....making them more expensive, and since they die every game, I hope those first turn and second turn shots (if you get any) are worth the extra points. Or are you just buying 1 HW squad and not a whole platoon of them? I'd rather have a LR.

4) HB in IG are horrible. What, you might kill an Ork? Gee...sign me up for that one. lol

Hmm, well, your response was pretty much was what I expected. On the off chance that it'll be useful I'll rebut.

1) ID and COD aren't really pony tricks. They are ways that cost virtually nothing to provide a small bonus. If you have the doctrines available, why wouldn't you take them? Assuming 3 officers in a list, it costs 20pts to grab ID. If that keeps one squad from breaking, or allows one squad to rally, it's paid for itself three times over. If you play in an environment where things are shot until they are destroyed, then maybe it's less useful. I have not played a serious game without it since the new codex. I can see how you feel it's not necessary, but to claim that the upgrade is actually bad places the burden of proof on you to explain why, since the vast majority of IG players swear by it.

2) I like plasma in line squads because I, like most players, think that the basic IG squad is overcosted. It's overcosted because IG get unrivaled access to special and heavy weapons. This is why I take a special in every line squad. Even Lascannon/flamer isn't as awful as you'd think, and is only 6 pts more than a naked lascannon squad.

3) YMMV with dropping plasma. I can see it going either way.

4) While the statement "roughriders are the best countercharge in the game" is an opinion, what is not an opinion is that RRs have what no other unit in the list has: high I, High Strength power weapon attacks. Yes, against wytches, stealers are harlies RRs aren't good, but on the flip side line squads do a good job of stalling those units. RR's excel at killing assault squads, meq IC's, terminators, and aspect warriors. Those are units that if they make it past your killing field can roll up an entire flank. RR's aren't mandatory, as I pointed out. They are, however, a good insurance policy. They are also a potent psychological ploy. Players tend to either ignore the ponies, or have horrible memories of the ponies killing their prize units. Either way it can be exploited.

5) You didn't really respond to my assertions about HW squads. My point was that while they are fragile, they are only a bit more fragile and a bit more expensive than a line squad, but have three times the fire power. I've used at least one anti-tank squad in most of my games, and yes, once the enemy starts pouring firepower into them they often wilt. However, rare is the enemy with the firepower to flat out destroy such a squad in a turn. Even a HB devestator squad, shooting at a HWS in 5+ cover will on average kill just over 4 men a turn. If you have a JO with ID around, they're testing on LD8. If you have an HSO with banner and ID, they test on LD9 with a re-roll. Note that two options you dislike, ID/banner and Heavy weapon squads, form a nice combo. A Heavy Weapon squad in 5+ cover is roughly as survivable as a line squad in the open, while a Heavy weapon squad in 4+ cover will actually take more shots than the line squad in the open.
In short, Heavy Weapon squads are easier to destroy than infantry squads, but not as easy as you think.

6) To force a test on HW squads you need to kill two troops. in a perfect world a single HB could do that, but given any cover, it becomes less likely. If you castle the HW squads near the HSO, they're ability to weather morale tests is pretty good. I certainly don't advocate nothing but HW squads, but at some point the triple firepower of those squads has to impress you enough to overlook their diminished size.

I like HB in squads not because I want the squad to shoot the HB, but because I belive wholeheartedly that you should always take a special and a heavy. A HB/f squad is 76 pts, only 16 more points than a naked squad, and can hurt AV11, has 36" range, and packs a flamer for up close work. It's remarkable utility for a fairly low price. Yes, there are times when the HB accomplishes little, but there are also times when I have three LC's in a row miss their target.

I say SS in squads is ok at best because IMO it offers a decent boost at a decent price. You take squads with LC and SS, I take las/plas. I don't think mine are better, since mine have a broader goal then yours do. In your squads, SS is a ~12% cost increase for a 16.5% accuracy increase, which is a decent deal.

I know that Stelek has strong opinions on army design, and some of his suggestions are defendable or even laudable. In general, however, I disagree with many of his suggestions.

You're saving around 60 points by not taking ID and Ld 9 bubbles. Good work there; I'm sure that extra squad will save you when a shooty army has all your men running off the table.

Furthermore, how does RRs not excelling against lightly-armored targets that guardsmen themselves can handle through weight of numbers invalidate them as a counter-assault unit?

I came to Dakka to make my army more competitive, and have recieved a lot of good feedback. Dropping ID, however, has not been part of it, and nearly every guard player agrees with me there.

*Sigh*

You have to make tight lists to be competitive. Dumping a PG that doesn't even guarantee a kill of a single marine, is bad advice.

Not sure I follow the reality on HB Devastators firing at guard in cover and only killing 4 guys. So what if they do? Isn't that a dead weapon? A morale check? Only 2 guys left, and if you have no tanks why wouldn't I fire lascannons at them to reduce them further?

What happens when you face a combat squad'ed army, and suddenly have to take morale tests on every single one of those squads? What happens when you get shot at a second time?

HW squads get targeted first because they are easy to shoot away. You guys keep talking as if there's one turn in the game, where all is decided. HW squads do proportionally less well the more shooty your enemy's army is, and if you are trying to outshoot said army, seems to be a bad idea to rely heavily on such fragile units. I know I blow them away every chance I get because of this.

Now if you were to run a all HW maxed out army, you'd have a hell of a lot of shots. How long they'd last would be another thing.

I guess the problem I see with not bringing line squads is, you can't sacrifice HW squads to CC units. They also can't move up and flashlight anyone, it's NEVER worth moving them. Being inflexible is bad for IG.

I'd rather have troops that fulfill their primary goal and more of them, than having a bunch of units that can maybe fit in more of a secondary goal but end up costing me units that can fulfil the primary goal.

It's a tenet of my 40k army list design that's served me very well.

Seraphim are faster I, and until the Codex is redone having a Canoness and a Seraphim unit...well there are reasons people take those units in a guard army. I don't want CC units in my guard army. I can live without them.

Fannin, aren't YOU the one losing? Maybe if you realized you've gotta let your men get shot off the table and stop trying to save them....is a better way to play guard. Bring enough strong squads, and even very shooty armies will have a hard time taking you down.

RR's do only one thing. There are other choices that do MORE than just countercharge, but against shooty armies not coming to assault you are pretty damn useless. In games where you are losing, ever think it's because you have a throwaway countercharge unit not doing anything because it can't go out on the battlefield and contribute except to get shot at and run away?

Maybe you should look at my drop/infiltrate IG army list.
It kills itself. But 75% of the armies it faces, it annihilates by turn 3.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205346.page
I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but if you want some advice? Try some advice.

Everyone else telling you your army is great, but I'm telling you it's a loser. Don't agree? Try it before you bite it. You've been losing games because you have ONE firebase in your army, and alot of extra crap that won't do anything. In my opinion, and in my experience, I think I could drop your whole army list in 3 turns with almost any army I've got. Simply by shooting you better than you shoot me.

You don't even really need the Ld9. For 56 pts (Jnr officer, ID and Standard), every unit within a one foot radius has a 93.33% chance of passing a leadership test even under half strength! Not bad particularly when they keep an ATS firing a couple of lascannons.

I don't see much use for COD though. Like most guard players I believe a HW belongs in every squad, if you move into COD that means not firing it for a turn.

I would also like to throw my weight behind Rough Riders, they are pure magic. Not only can they destroy well over their weight in elite assault troops, they can do it well in from of your line. They win the first round of combat and then conveniently die/run away so that you can blow the #@% out of the survivors in you shooting phase. They fit so well into a gunline army and a potential 24" charge means that just two squads should be enough to watch you entire line. As Stelek points out though, be careful of high initiative enemies.

Interestingly with sharpshooter it offers an 8.33% ((1/6)*(1/2)) increase in accuracy for a 8.33% (10/120) increase in cost (on a Lascannon ATS). While that may seem worth it, remember they still die just as easily. Mathhammer says, no sharpshooter.

I think you need to clarify your position about plasma guns, because I'm seeing inconsistency in your advice. You keep reminding me that a game lasts longer than a single turn, yet somehow you can't see the wisdom in taking a plasma gun? Nothing in 40k is garunteed, but assuming a PG can shoot once at long range and once in rapid fire (not an unreasonable amount of shooting to get from a line squad), you'll on average kill a MEQ, which is a nice return for a 10pt investment.

I guess I'm trying to ask why you seem to think that line squads will survive longer to shoot more, yet a plasma gun could never shoot enough times to justiy the marginal cost. You either have a reason, or you simply don't like plasma. In my experience, plasma is best at the targets that lasguns are worst at, making them a nearly essential part of my armory.

Maybe I play against weak competition. Maybe I've gotten lucky. All I know is that despite the paranoia I felt after losing screened heavy weapon squads simply has not been justified. My squads regularly survive to shoot on multiple turns. What you seem to be ignoring is that while they are relatively fragile, the squad has 3 freaking lascannons! For 120pts! Taking two of them runs only 240pts. Let's assume they only get to fire twice each, which while it may be more than you think they will get to fire is less then I think they'll get to fire. This gives you 12 lascannon shots, with SS that's 7 hits. That shakes out to a pen and a glance on a Landraider or monolith, for a really good chance to win back their points. It's two pens and a glance on predators, for an excellent chance of popping the tank. It's enough wounds to drop a Hive Tyrant or Carnifex, and is even enough hurt a DP pretty badly.

You seem fixated on the results of IG playing against a SAFH. Most, if not all SAFH focus on anti-tank weapons, which will have a hard time digging out infantry squads, even small ones. If the enemy has HB devestators, then I'd want to have as much return firepower as possible to silence them.

Finally, I tend to play the classic IG castle. I place my anti-tank squads in hard cover, with an HSO w/ banner and ID behind the cover. This gives the squads in the cover a good save and a re-rollable LD9 bubble. With less than a 3% chance of breaking from shooting, I feel pretty confident that my squads can weather some shooting.

I should say, for the record, that I generally only play one or two heavy weapon squads at 1850, not the multitude the OP is fielding. I've seen nearly all HWS armies do pretty well, however.

Maybe you need some tactical advice, I don't know.

You have a string it out along my board edge type of IG army. It works against new players, but experienced players? It won't work.

Everyone favors the refused flank with mobile armies, but what happens when you have two strong flanks and there's nowhere for the mobile army to go? Even shooty armies prefer lining up against your weak side if they can manage it, but if you follow this advice you'll find it stymies most 40K tactics vs IG. Or Tau.

Using the list I posted:

Firebase A:

3 infantry platoons with lascannons + sharpshooters.
2 command sections with autocannons + sharpshooters.
1 LRMBT.
1 Hellhound.

Firebase B:

3 infantry platoons with lascannons + sharpshooters.
2 command sections with autocannons + sharpshooters.
1 LRMBT.
1 Hellhound.

Reserves:

Basilisk
2 Plasma Vet squads, can drop or infiltrate.
1 melta Vet squad, can drop of iniltrate.

Tactics:

Hide the Basilisk wherever you can. Even better if you hide it where it's in the middle unsupported but untargetable.

Always hide the Hellhounds behind terrain or the LR if you can only hide 1 tank. Put the LR where it can fire from the corner position in.

16" from each side on a 6x4 table, mark a central point and deploy your two firebases so only fast enemy units can move from one firebase to another IF they win combat AND have the next turn. Don't deploy 12" in, deploy 6-8" in. If they have HB or are Tau, deploy 0-3" in.

If there is no DS or infil, place a plasma squad with each firebase. Put the meltagun unit with the basilisk. Even if it doesn't look like it'll get much action there, odds are it will.

This gives you two strong firebases with which to pummel the enemy, and unless he stays on an extreme flank to avoid your other firebase as much as possible, he'll still eat the firepower from both.

The Hellhounds and Plasma Squads are your means to stop assault units. Your Lascannons are for tanks, and your AC are for light vehicles or transports.

It takes away people being able to roll up your line. You can cripple most assault units with the plasma + hellhound combo. Then do it again, because they aren't units that just die in CC like the RR are. They need to be shot dead to remove their threat.

Being able to drop flamer templates, multiple AC and lascannon shots, lots of lasgun shots, pie plates, and BS4 plasmafire really makes all the difference in the world.
Especially when you can do it twice over, and if he takes out a firebase with shooting or assault or both; so what? You have another solid firebase and in most games, no assault units will make it from one firebase to another unless they come straight down the middle. Then you blow them away with your entire army, as normal. Don't be afraid if they do this to suicide your basilisk + meltasquad to give an assault coming down the middle something to chew up. You'll just shoot them dead on your turn anyway.

You don't need to make your guard more survivable by doctrine when you can make them more survivable by tactics. What, your opponent is going to pile his army into a far corner and outshoot you? Great, move your other firebase up for a turn then start outshooting him.
A 48" range is it's own strength. Use it.

Why plasmaguns in line squads suck?

Plasma guns on line squads kill 1 marine. So what? If I'm assaulting you, I hope I have more than just 8 assault marines. I should have 20+ coming so you can't stop them all. You assume you'll get to rapid fire after firing once at long range, I only assume that with drop squads armed only with plasma guns. See, here's the problem:

I move to 19". Now you have a choice. Fire the las + plas, or move up and fire the plas twice sans las, and add in 8 more lasgun shots. Either way, if my assault troops aren't dead, I'll be assaulting you next turn or if I'm running say a Sisters army I'll be shooting you dead in the next turn.

So what good is a plasmagun on line squads? None in my view. I'm not paying 10 points for a once-a-game shot that has less than a 50% chance to kill a marine.

Line squads with a lascannon can setup 45" away from you, and shoot you 3-4 turns depending on your army mix. If you have no tanks, I'll gladly fire them at your marines. If you have hordes, I'll fire at the best bang for my buck units; and get ready to fire flashlights because most hordes are vulnerable to them.

It's all about what you want the units to do, and how flexible you want them to be. Does it matter to me if guard run away? No. Why should it? I run them as cheap as I can, and as many of them as I can. Plasmaguns belong in drop/infil units with BS4, not crappy BS3 fry my face off units. They aren't dependable in line units, and that's what I want out of my guard units--dependability. Your experience might differ, but apparently I'm unique.

To the OP I actually use your 1750 list at 1850. It's pretty much the same list but I use hell hounds.
Fire support team tend to have more survivability than you think. Three lascannons are going to fall faster than a communist regime.
Atou cannons tend to be pushed back on the priority list.

For the record, I haven't played any of these lists, so telling me that "you're the one losing" isn't relevant in the slightest. I can tell you exactly the problems I've been having: all infantry without enough firepower to win.

With ID and two ld 9 bubbles, you've basically ensured that your opponent has to butcher them to the last man in order to silence the heavy weapon.

I give up roughly 60 points for that, and suddenly my army goes from extremely weak Ld to extremely good ld. Marines pay more than that for less ld improvement on fewer squads, and it's considered a good buy.

I like the split deployment, but with no leadership backbone, all it takes is careful fire to stand a good shot of neutralizing a whole firebase in one turn. Incorporating ID and HSOs eliminate that problem for cheap.