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Marines pay more? Really? Last I checked Masters cost 75 points, and the ability is a hell of a lot better than yours is.
They also get a character who isn't bad in CC, unlike the IG HSO who if he ever kills someone in CC really is heroic!

I guess I'll have to take your word on these issues:

All infantry guard are deadly. If you don't have enough firepower, you're not making your lists effectively.

I've yet to see anyone neutralize a firebase in a single turn. Usually takes about three. You have 48" HB, I'm guessing?

I guess if you play with ID for so long you get to thinking regular guard morale is so bad it rolls box cars automatically. The crutch is going away when the new Codex comes out, anyway.

If you aren't the one losing, tell me something?

Fannin wrote:I've been a Guard player for about a year now. During that year, I've had absolutely no success whatsoever against any opponent that I haven't immediately laughed upon seeing what they deploy. I've been utterly crushed repeatedly, and I really have no idea why. I'm fairly certain my army building passes muster, but to verify I wanted to post a few lists to see if they qualify as optimized, and if not, to recieve criticism regarding what exactly I'm doing wrong. Show no mercy whatsoever, if you don't mind.

What the hell did you just say? Crushed repeatedly isn't losing? Show no mercy and you get insulted?

Come on.

Marines don't have to take a master. Guard do have to take officers. A master costs 75 points. Upgrading two officers to produce two unmodifiable ld 9 bubbles costs 65 points. Going from ld 7 to ld 9 unmodifiable is a hell of a bigger jump than going from 8 to 10. Guard can cover more squads with 2 bubbles than marines have total. Yup, marines pay more to get less for fewer squads, and it's a good buy.

I can't believe we're seriously debating the merits of Iron Discipline and ld 9 bubbles for a competitive list. I also can't see why you expected to come to such a thread, call a free doctrine harmful and decry ID and not expect to catch flack for it.

The master works on everyone in the list, for...everything except Pyschic tests.

Yours doesn't.

My army wins without the LD9 bubble.

Yours doesn't.

Alot of people think there are 'standards' you must adhere to when making an army.

It simply isn't true for most armies, except the caramel or vanilla? nerfbatted ones (DA, BA, Chaos) where the choices are so few and far between.

IG don't have that problem. Playing like you need LD9 instead of LD8 (you keep leaving out the JO's in your comments) is silly. So what if LD8 gets reduced when below half? Don't run 5 man squads unless you HAVE to, or plan for them to be dead like I do with mine.

Outside the box is comfortable for me.

If inside the box is comfortable for you, fine by me.

Bouyancy, your entire post was an inappropriate. A blatant flame and violation of the forum rules.

The next personal attack you post will result in a temporary ban.

From what I have seen, Ld9, Iron Discipline, and Close Order Drill can be very useful things, and components of winning IG lists.

I don't think they're required. I think Stelek's approach with the cheap horde is also an effective one.

I think the main issue here is people claiming that only one way or the other can work.

Ok, we are talking about being really competitive here. One way to figure out what makes guard competitive is to ask people who frequently play against guard what scares them.

Time and time again, the thing I hear most about guard being scary is the number of bodies it can field. This can be an unpopular fact for many new guard players. Because it means buying and painting more than your average marine player has to to make a hard army.

Stelek's main point emphasizes that. Although i disagree on Iron discipline, due to the specifics of how I deploy my guard, almost every other point is very important. Guard are going to break and run. Building lists that survive morale failure is infinitely more important than attempting to fight the truth that you WILL fail morale tests during the game. Some people don't want to run, some people think that if any of their units run, they have now lost the game. And those people just can't play guard, they need to be a marine player.

How do you survive morale failure? Make no single unit a 'backbone' unit. I don't like guard lists that have small firebases with a ld9 bubble. With just a single notable leadership node, you can snipe it, then tank shock up a flank and run off the whole firebase. Whatever points you spent on drop troops or vehicles are now left isolated and spread out with no fire support. I do like the idea of dropping, but I usually advocate supporting the drop units with hellhounds and leman russes exclusively, and bunching infantry altogether. You can do that by fielding schaefers last chancers as your mandatory troops choices.

I LOVE heavy weapon squads, many players point to their expensiveness versus their survivability as a shortcoming, and say they are too fragile. That is part fallacy. If taken in an insufficient concentration, or deployed incorrectly, they are crap. Worse than crap. If taken exclusively as 48" range (auto and lascannon) and deployed in concetration, they become exponentially survivable. Not by merit of their toughness or armor, but rather by the impossibility of getting close enough to them with any gun that can fire rapidly enough to hurt them. With 20+ autocannons and lascannons, any unit that creeps into range and attempts to chip away at a HW squad will soon be fragged. That goes for tyranid MCs, falcons (not so much fragged as perma-shaken) or "heavy bolter marine units" The only counter to this is that units that arrive on the table through deep striking teleporting or whatnot can get in close faster. Thats why my packs of heavy weapons are protected by the bodies of a massive number of infantry squads and conscripts. If there literally is not a place to deploy a deep striking unit within 18" of my heavy weapons, these units will have to deploy further out. In front of my infantry squads and out of range of rapid fire.

long story short. If not taking at least 6 units of heavy weapons squads, don't take any. If taking 6-7 heavy weapon squads, you need to protect them with a mass of infantry bodies.

If you are going to go 'tactical' and play with all the guard toys, I would suggest committing to as many fearless units as possible (vehicles), let the drop troops suicide, and then saturate the board with tanks. use your suicide units to remove the biggest anti-tank threats (hint: ignore falcons and heavy bolter squads) Skip the bassy, bikes can get to it toot-sweet with no infantry support. Run out hellhounds and leman russes. And if you are looking for suicide, no on knows it better than the penal legion.

Its my personal opinion that the droppy tricky sassy guard army can stun new players, and can beat veteran players who haven't encountered it. A good nid player will pad his carnifexes with 12" of gaunts. No way to land and shoot in a single turn so it spoils all his plasma. Good eldar players will turbo boost their bikes for the first three turns of the game and keep the backs of their grav tanks against table edges. Horde armies of any variety just don't have anything you'll want to trade your plasma squads for. Shooty marine units will just weather the early damage and just take you to school once you've lost all your tricks. Drop pod marines will just give you the first turn and won't be on the table when your plasmas show up. If you are looking to beat everyone, I think you need to really increase your model count by a great deal. I play with a 160 model army with 30 heavy weapons (24 of which are 48" range), there is no one unit that you would want to kill in preference to others. You can't deploy unconventionally against me, and you have to weigh every aggressive move you make against the consequences of what is going to happen to your units on my next shooting phase. The 24 heavy bolter 6 lascannon marine army is flatly better at what i am trying to do. But in my eyes, that army is completely bogus, broken, and going away very soon.

Those I think are important points. First off, you have taken good units, in good configurations. I am just of the opinion that you have your lists built too tactically, too marine-like. Guard is straightforward. They don't confound their opponent with tactics, they sledgehammer their opponent. They don't bring every tool for the job, they use one or two tools for every job. Good guard philosophy is this... Any tool can complete any task. Especially if you don't care how many tools you break completing the task.

Your lists are too indecisive for my taste. Is it a shooty guard list with drop troop and vehicle options? Or is it a drop list with a firebase? Lose all the leadership upgrades, the autocannons, and the troops choices, and take 20 last chancers, take a couple demo charge guys, mostly plasma guns and maybe a melta or two. Drop the counter assault and use the remaining points to buy hellhounds. I would give an option for converting it to a castle SAFH list but you are clearly leaning towards a 'special forces' type army.

A note on LD 9. I like it sometimes, sometimes i don't. If you haven't done the math, you will fail an unmodified leadership test 11% of the time on exactly a '9'. the combined results of 10-12 make up around 17% Leadership 9 is DEFINITELY the highest leadership result I would ever invest points into. When given the choice between making a unit more expensive so it will pass on a 9 versus, buying another unit, I would always choose the unit. If however, you make a list that has 25 points floating, and cannot trim to 45 points, then buying that leadership is really the only option. I have actually been tracking how many tests i take per game with my non-cameleoline non-carapaced guard armies. It seems I average about 2 per turn for the first 4 turns, then one per turn for the last 2. Higher model count opponents raise that average, VP denial lists lower that average. So I make an average of 10 morale tests per game. I have to discount other leadership tests like pinning and target priority here. Some games are rife with those tests, some aren't. They are important factors for leadership as well. So, once per game, I'm going to fail a morale test on exactly a 9. For the sake of argument, lets say that that failure, results in the loss of the unit. Which is important, since many times you will not make the board edge and have a chance at regrouping. My average unit cost is about 90. So If I bought the 25-30 point upgrade once, and it was the one that hit a 9. Then it was probably worth it. If I bought 2 LD 9 bubbles for 55 its just not worth it. Iron discipline protects an 8 from dropping to a much more common 7. Making the LD9 upgrade less important. This paragraph is devolving into theory-hammer drivel. I'll just stop here and say... I think leadership 9 is ok, but not great. And I'd never take it in preference to an additional unit.

I hope some of this was useful, and I'm sure there will be some points where we disagree. But I hope you will agree, that guard are not mini marines and attempting to play them as such will cause you much disappointment.

Nice post.

The 'bull' Smurf army you speak of, barely got a win off against my buddys 326 man IG army.

Came down to a single 3+ save on my part, between a vic or not.

The more bodies you bring, the scarier your army can be.

Note that at the LAGT I faced 100+ bodies in every army I played against. Two of them were IG with 150-170 drop troops in each. Very tiresome indeed, putting all those models away. My Eldar didn't have fun being outnumbered 5-1. One screwup on my part and the other army would have crushed me by sheer weight of numbers. That saying, quantity has a certain quality...it really is true.

Good Post Shep. I think in my defense of heavy weapon squads I may have inadvertantly implied that IG don't need tons of bodies. Even at 1850, I tend to have 130+ men on the table.

Let me back up. This is turning into nothing but a glorified flame-fest, and I want to make sure I'm being totally fair. Stelek, if you can convince me that these 65 points saved are the difference between my lost games and your resounding successes, I'll swear off anything but JOs without ID myself. What are you doing with those 65 points that is winning the game for you, and losing it for me?

Edit: I also thought Shep's post was chock-full of quality analysis that I'm taking to the bank. Revised list to come. Expect sledgehammer approach.

Fannin: I'm guessing your losses are due more to play than to lists, to be honest. How are you losing games? You seem to imply that you don't have enough firepower.

there are a few tricks to using IG. You have to establish fire lanes: deploy your troops so that they can support each other and shoot until they're dead.

You need to learn the fine art of knowing when to throw more bodies into assault, and how to lose an assault on your opponents turn so that you can shoot after that.

You also need to learn how to keep your squads spread apart far enough to prevent rolling consolidations.

The key to the IG is bulk, that much can't be ignored. That bulk, IMO, means deploying and keeping as many guns (heavies and specials in particular) firing each turn as humanly possible. any upgrade that cuts down on the number of guns you bring must be balanced by increasing the survivability of the other guns.

This is why Carapace tends to get ignored (it costs too many guns for the increase in survivability). camo is sort of a wash, while ID is generally loved. ID, even in a horde, costs maybe 35pts, and will often keep a squad fighting every game or so. That's a good trade, IMO.

I feel the same way about plasma guns in line squads. If you take, say, 6 lascannon squads, it will cost 60 pts to add a plasma gun to each squad. Looking at this cost collectively, it only takes a few assault marines, a few wounds off a TMC, a destroyed light vehicle, or even a terminator to basically earn it's points back entirely.

Fannin, I think through the back and forth posting, and the focus that you and others have put on this specific point about leadership 9, you have missed what Stelek's original point was.

Stelek wrote:You have alot of unnecessary upgrades without improving your strength's overall capability.

I'm not rushing to Stelek's defense. (he doesn't need me to) His original point was that you have spent a number of points that although in some lists could be important, aren't helping your particular list.

For instance. Iron Disc and leadership 9 are used very often in gunline guard lists, but in a drop list, it is clearly a waste of points. Any 5 man guard unit is going to be so completley annihilated by shooting that passing or failing a test is pretty inconsequential, target priority shouldnt be an issue either, since you'll be landing next to whatever you are going to shoot at.

We are all taking time to give advice to you about playing guard. I'm a long time necron player that had some SERIOUS difficulties adjusting to the paper armor, T3 and LD8 at best guard, versus my VP denial recycling necrons. If you search my posts, you'll see that I came here with lists very similar to yours and asked for help. I was pushed in either the horde or more drop dedicated direction. My victories immediately started rolling in. I know exactly whats happening to you when you play that list.

Dakka doesn't always have the warm fuzzies that other sites may have. But the caliber of advice you get here for 40k especially makes it a valuable resource. I try to make my critiques as warm and fuzzy as possible, but I would definately test or consider testing any of the advice you got. Please let me know how it goes. I lveo guard batreps and would genuinely like to know how your army fares after any changes.

I completely agree that ld 9 is an overly expensive, wasteful commodity in drop troop lists. I wonder if that's the source of a lot of the confusion here, since my first list is meant to be gunline with suicide vets.

I am planning on taking the horde approach. I love tanks, especially when they hit their targets, but I find them terribly useless due to their fragility. I'll post a new list here in a bit that takes into account most of these suggestions. Whether or not I run ID and ld 9 will depend on the quantity of line squads I bring.

Final note: don't take my vigorous defense of certain choices as indication I don't want advice. I think, though, that until I'm convinced of the wisdom of a particular choice, it's intellectually dishonest of me to go along with it. I'm going to defend my choices until the logic proving my error is unmistakable, but once it is, I back off immediately.

I'm honestly no happier with the first list than any of you are, and a replacement will be forthcoming.

If you want to run gunline IG, do it. Give us a list to critique that doesn't include a bunch of upgrades or tanks. Less is more. Let us know what your units are there for.

Stelek wrote:1) I've never lost to a guard army with those 2 pony tricks. It's rarely helped me when I've run it. Thus, I'm unimpressed with it.

2/3) If you drop, why not take PG and scare MC and Termies to death? You can still knock out vehicles with PG. 1 unit with meltas is enough I think, given the 6 sharpshooter lascannons.

4) Oh that's an opinion. Against Orks, RR are utter gak. Against Wyches, Stealers, Harlies...yeah. Utter gak. So, they cannot be the 'best'. They are good in various situations. I'm of the opinion that tar pits and counter attack units are pretty useless if you play your IG the way I would. Shoot enemy until dead. Split your firebase so 1 assault unit cannot ruin your day.

5) HW Squads are easily destroyed and/or chased off the board. Even 1 heavy bolter is a serious threat. Come on, give realistic advice.

6) Besides Chaos, how many armies can put out enough firepower to either eliminate a command squad or force a test every turn on more than 6 squads? I know all of my armies can do so. You think that's protection? Not for an entire game. Not even for 2 turns it isn't. You need lots of bodies to stop it. Minimum sized squads better be secondary to your army else they're going to get ripped up.

On your notes:

2) His original list had a standard, I believe.

3) It's 'at best' ok? Seems like an odd thing to say, since you have to pay for the Sharpshooters on EVERY HW squad....making them more expensive, and since they die every game, I hope those first turn and second turn shots (if you get any) are worth the extra points. Or are you just buying 1 HW squad and not a whole platoon of them? I'd rather have a LR.

4) HB in IG are horrible. What, you might kill an Ork? Gee...sign me up for that one. lol

Stelek wrote:Ok here ya go. Keep in mind my views are based on my own success. Starting with a critique first, then I'll give you a list.

COD and ID are just no damn good. Here's why: You raise the cost of your cheap troops to unacceptable levels. Let your men run, get shot down, run down, etc. If you play them correctly, it won't matter one damn bit.

HI and SB are also no good. HSO same thing. You don't NEED these guys. You cannot compete in the HQ arena, don't try.

Las/Plas squads are no good in ANY army. Don't run them. Your army's job is to blow the other guy up before he gets to you, and flashlight humiliate the last standing termie to death.

AF squads are utter trash. They aren't mobile unless you get first turn, if you are hiding them behind terrain don't you end up the same place as a inf squad on foot would after moving out and getting blown up?

You have alot of unnecessary upgrades without improving your strength's overall capability. Let me show you a list that's got real kill power in it, compared to yours.

BTW if you have a HB and it isn't on a tank, don't bother.

Wow. Go away for a couple days....

Anyways,

1. Iron D and COD are both quite useful and not expensive at all. Neither has any effect on the cost of basic troops as Stelek stated. Iron D increases the probablility that your gunline is not going to run, thus doing more shooting (This for 10 points, total added cost 35 if you want two LD 9 officers). And it gives you the ability to rally a unit below 50%, whcih can recover units that would otherwise kjeep running. Close Order Drill, I use it primarily as an assault boost. By gauging my asssult aI can generally wind up with all my assaulting models in btb and surprise MEQ armies with Init 4 IG. Used both in my IG for the US GTs and I'm 9-1 over my last two appearances. This with an all-infantry/sentinels list using a mix of gunline and drop troops.

2/3. Dropping Vets/Command squads. IMO, meltas on the vets, plasma on the Plt Commands. Vets better shots, more likelihood of killing armor, Plt Cmds more guns, more shots, possibility of killing more whatever. Target the squad at whatever it's best for. Altho it can scare the power armor off a MEQ player when you drop a Hardened Vet squad with 3 meltas next to his LD 10 guy hiding in the back....................

4. I'm not a large fan of RR myself. Stated it earlier, one-shot wonders, I'd rather just overwhelm you with sheer numbers. Quantity has a quality all it's own.

5. Heavy Weapon squads, I both agree and disagree. gdurant has already said it, Fire Support squads rock, AT squads have problems. Here's why I think this mght be so, AT squads are for Anti-Tank/MEQ work and the armies that field those in large numbers will generally have the firepower to go after the AT squads. FS squads are for anti-infantry work, and other than IG, most armies that rely on infantry (ie hordes) seldom have the early long range firepower to go after them. Just a personal theory. So while I frequently run FS squads with two Hb and an Autocannon, I seldom use AT squads.

6. At what range? Besides, with LD 9 and Iron D, Morale tests are seldom a problem............

On his notes

3. Not a fan of Sharpshooters. Rather spend the points on more guns.

4. A single Hevy bolter, not much. Lots of heavy bolters (FS squads) can be quite nice. Depends on opponent.

From other posts:

Split deployment, best used in conjunction with LD bubbles and Iron D.

Special weapons in line squads. Absolutely, and since that's where I put lascannons, I'm going to use a special to match, which means plasma. And in the case of those 8 assault marines, one plasma may not make much difference, but one in EVERY!! line squad makes a hell of a difference. There go half the assault marines (and a couple IG) just to plasma.

And I'm speaking as someone who rarely loses with IG (my regular Win/Loss ratio is higher than the 90% from the GTs), was second for Best General in the 2005 Baltimore GT using this type of IG army, etc etc etc...............

Stelek wrote:The master works on everyone in the list, for...everything except Pyschic tests.

>SNIP

IG don't have that problem. Playing like you need LD9 instead of LD8 (you keep leaving out the JO's in your comments) is silly. So what if LD8 gets reduced when below half? Don't run 5 man squads unless you HAVE to, or plan for them to be dead like I do with mine.

?? No, the Master only works for Morale and Pinning, just like the Officers LD. Doesn't work for psychic OR Priority tests.

But reduced only for tests his own squad takes. A JO in a below 50% squad still gives an LD 8 to other squads. And with Iron D, no -1 at all.

Here's a list I devised earlier, with a nod to most of the points that have been made. According to my mathhammer, ID should produce more of an improvement for 5 points than ld 9 does for 25 to 30. Therefore, I've decided to break the mold a bit here and dispense with ld 9. It makes more sense, anyway... 200 men are far more likely to be led into the field by a Captain than a Colonel.

[/b]Doctrines
Iron Discipline
Close-Order Drill
Heavy Weapon Platoons
Conscript Platoons

HQ

Command Platoon:

led by JO w/ ID
2x plas
65 pts

Anti-Tank Squad: 3x lascannon
110 pts

Anti-Tank Squad: 3x lascannon
110 pts

Fire Support Squad: 3x autocannon
95 pts

Fire Support Squad: 3x autocannon
95 pts

Troops

Infantry Platoon

led by JO w/ ID
2x plas
65 pts

Squad 1: autocannon
Squad 2: autocannon
Squad 3: autocannon
Squad 4: autocannon
300 pts total

Conscript platoon: 50 bodies
200 pts

Heavy Support[b]

Heavy Weapons Platoon A

led by JO w/ ID
1x plas
55 pts

Anti-tank Squad: 3x lascannon
110 pts

Fire Support Squad: 3x autocannon
95 points

Fire Support Squad: 3x autocannon
95 pts

Heavy Weapons Platoon B

led by JO w/ ID
1x plas
55 pts

Anti-tank Squad: 3x lascannon
110 pts

Fire Support Squad: 3x autocannon
95 pts

Fire Support Squad: 3x autocannon
95 pts

Total: 1750 pts


Overview:
22 autocannons
12 lascannon
6 plas
170 bodies

Tactics as Shep indicated earlier: bodies carpet the area in front of the firebase such that deepstriking in close is impossible. Long range weapons shoot the enemy to death from outside the range of serious reprisal. Straightforward and sledgehammerlike.

Awesome Fannin. Lots of good changes. This type of list is the kind of thing that i feel every guard player needs to start at before they even take a step towards the 'toys'.

A few small criticisms, and then i'll throw out some tactical advice.

For your command squads, I think 2 plasma guns are fine. I use mortars, since all of my heavy weapons get the priority deployment spots with good lanes of fire. With an army this big, its inevitable that one or three of your units are going to have crappy LOS. But I couldn't realistically complain about double plas in that unit. Its just a case of YMMV

HQ platoon is perfect...

Troops, I like heavy bolters in my troops squad because they are cheaper and better match the purpose of my lasguns. I'm a miser and i don't like to trade away any shots when i don't have to. If you shoot your autocannons at light vehicles, all those flashlights go to waste. However, this is splitting hairs. They are, after all, flashlights. Go for the autocannons if you want. Just maybe watch how often you are coming up short on GEQ or MEQ infantry killing. Special weapons on squads? I run them sometimes, I don't run them sometimes. Again, special weapons are a case of YMMV. I really like that you are going to try it without first though. That way, when you do buy them, you will have a good idea of if you need them at all, and also whether you want grenade launchers or plasma guns.

Conscript platoon. I see you've sprung for the big daddy. Contrary to what we've been saying about keeping your leadership investment cheap, if you are taking a big conscript tarpit like this, I would advocate the use of either an independent commissar, or even better commissar gaunt. Having ID leadership 8 on this unit is good. But making it fearless will make this unit and absolute terror to your opponent. If you wanted to try to spam bodies, and didn't want to buy a commissar, I would suggest maybe trimming this down to 30 men, so if you get a bad roll on a leadership test (after losing a combat) you don't end up losing 200 points. Conscripts are great, but do require a lot more babysitting, due to their cost.

heavy weapons platoons I run 15 lascannons to your 12, but have less autocannons as a result. This choice is VERY specific to your local metagame. Definitely YMMV. More eldar means more autocannons, more tyranids means more lascannons, etc.

The only thing that is missing from your list that i would like to see is a bassy. An indirect bassy does not count as a vehicle when determining if you've spoiled their list's anti-tank choices. There is always space for one bassy to be hidden and it performs the all important "shoot things that hide from or outrange your heavy weapons) Its a steal at 125, and with the bodies you have, its immune to meltaguns, singing spears, and any other 12" gun or close combat weapon. They just can't get that close.

Ok, on to tactics....

First truth, you are going to get into CC, know how to game the system...

iron disc coupled with carefully making sure you aren't going to be outnumbered, gives you a pretty reliable chance of holding close combats. Things to pay very close attention to... How many models is he killing per round of CC? How many models will he have after every round of CC. Are you going to lose on your turn? Or are you going to lose on his turn? Remember that using the leadership 8 iron disc leadership bubble is optional. I use it on my turn, I choose not to use it on his turns. Through this trick, you can lose and get run down at the end of his turn, and his CC unit will be wide open for shooting. Doesn't always work, but thats the beauty of all these units. Worst case scenario, he wins on your turn, and is able to charge a new unit. Well, then we just try it again. Be callous about the bodies you lose. Always keep in mind that your 'line units' cost 70 points for 10. A good example would be the 8 man carapaced scuttling genstealers. I've countercharged a full unit of them with 2 infantry squads before, I have my original units attacks plus the survivors of I6 x2. I'm not gonna be outnumbered, I'm not going to suffer any LD effects from being below half. My 30 guardsmen are going to win, period. It takes time, but mathematically, you are going to eventually kill them all off, and will probably have one or 2 units above half at the end. Meaning you've only spent around 140 points to wipe out something in the 200 range. It's just the skill of knowing how 4th edition combat works, and being very meticulous in how you charge, remove models, and make LD tests.

Another big one to remember. All of your units have heavy weapons, so you may be tempted to never move once deployed. Fight that temptation. You aren't going to have all of the spots you want covered, and there are some objective related concerns you may want to address. It is perfectly appropriate to move your infantry all over the place all game. You probably won't be moving your HW platoons, since they'll have good shots almost all game. This is another reason I like the heavy bolters on my infantry, I feel less guilty moving with the 10 point heavy.

Your army will intimidate the crap out of any player you face. Don't be self deprecating, don't tell him that it isn't that deadly, and do not tell him which units to shoot at to beat you. Use the psychology of 170 models that seem to all look the same to confound and fluster. Don't be deceptive, I'm not advocating lying or being rude. Just resist the urge to offer up any unsolicited information. After you finish deploying for the first couple test games. Walk over to your opponents table edge and look back over at your deployment. You'll get what i mean once you see it.

Other advice. Don't split the deployment of your heavy weapons. It's way too dangerous. I would say that once you really knew what you were doing with this list, and knew your opponents strengths and weaknesses intimately, you may be able to use a double firebase strategy. But for your first games, just huddle up, don't get sucked out and lured away from the umbrella of death you've created. (which is why I like mortars and bassies. They let you pick away at them until they get sick of it and decide to attack you directly)

Ok, thats enough for now. I want your next post to be a batrep or two, so i can enjoy reading about another SAFH guardsmen and their experiences!

Roger that, Shep. My guardsmen have to make it through the Panama Canal first (no, I'm not kidding), and then I'll have to bolster my ranks, but after that, expect reports.

Gee, priority tests aren't leadership tests? Is 5th edition out already? Page 19, BBB. Leadership test.

Want me to quote you the rules for the Master? Ok, it says blah blah blah and Leadership tests.

Have a nice day.

Ok to the army list you posted:

Drop the lame plasma already. Add missile launchers instead to some of the command squads. Before someone tells me it's stupid, half-assed, dumb, whatever...put the missile launcher guy in terrain and the rest of the command squad behind it.

Oh, and take Ibram Gaunt and park him at the ass end (that's your side of the board) of the conscript unit. Fearless for free. Conscripts are not hard to break, especially for CC units that get to them.

Oh and why you have AC in your 10 man squads instead of lascannons is beyond me--are your HW platoons more survivable? Always put your Lascannons in the 10 man squads.

Stelek wrote:
Las/Plas squads are no good in ANY army. Don't run them.

Stelek wrote:
Oh and why you have AC in your 10 man squads instead of lascannons is beyond me--are your HW platoons more survivable? Always put your Lascannons in the 10 man squads.

AT squads aren't terribly survivable, agreed, but they do better with a carpet of bodies around them. The only thing that's keeping me from dumping four plas in favor of lascannons in the line squads is the price consideration: for line squads, which will probably find themselves in hand to hand, I'd rather be giving up 7.5 pts a guardsman than 8.5 pts. Still, though, more lascannons would be nice. So, too, though, would be matching up flashlights better with a heavy bolter.

Regarding dropping all the plas, I guess it really depends on whether you think 16 lascannons can handle termies and TMCs in bulk.

Cheers on the ML idea for the command squads. I've been considering doing something simmilar with terrain, but haven't actually tried it yet. If an opponent wastes a unit's shots to hit a single guardsmen, it's a major advantage for me. Hell, maybe I'll go for lascannons instead.

Lastly, I would like to try to fit in an IF bassy, just to provide the capability to hit things out of line of sight.

Wow...I saw the sticky talking about some threads in the army list forum getting a little too personal and nasty, and I guess I've stumbled across on of them. I'll try to add my comments without feeding any flames.

While I certainly think Fannin's most recent list is better than the first, I think it still suffers in some areas. Trying to think big picture, against standard enemy army builds, you could have some severe problems.

You have no mobility. This hinders your ability to react to major threats and grab objectives. I can envision the marine SAFH, for example, hide 3 whirlwinds and pound you to pieces while hiding most of his troops (or claiming quarters in cleanse, for example). You can outshoot a lot of lists with this list, but not an opponent that isn't willing to stand and go toe-to-toe.

Tau would be another good example. You run into a stealth suit heavy list, and you have problems. They infiltrate near quarters/objectives and easily keep your troops away. SMS systems on vehicles only add to your woes.

The tarpit conscript unit is an idea I've personally never tried, but it seems to get some play on Dakka, so perhaps it's not so bad. Adding Gaunt into the mix makes it fairly expensive....I'd think 3 squads of 8 RRs would be more effective and mobile (good for objectives if your firebase does wipe out the enemy), but it's worth a shot. With this many bodies, though, and no drop troops or infiltration, you're going to be crammed into your deployment area. If an assault army does get into your lines, it could be tough to keep them from skipping from squad to squad. The large conscript squad may actually prove problematic in this regard, as in will block a large chunk of your LOS.

Why do you have the 1 (or 2 for the main HQ) plasma guns in the HQ sections? I can see spamming with 4 to drop, but just one seems odd...I don't see how you plan on employing this system. I know there are some who think it's crazy, but if you're running a shooty list, I think you're better off putting a cheap heavy weapon there. Just have the gunner exposed around or in terrain while the rest of the HQ hides. If he gets killed...unit didn't lose enough for a leadership check and the enemy shot an entire unit for no VPs. I think a HB, AC or ML would be much more useful than a PG for those squads. The LC is a bit too expensive, I think, for this role...it's a juicy enough target to hit, removing a powerful weapon from the field rather easily.

I also think a company standard would be a good investment. It's cheap (11 points for it and vet, I think), and will allow you to much more reliably pass when you need to and flee when you want to. Both are well worth the cost.

I find a smattering of light infantry and/or drop troops goes very well with infantry-heavy guard lists. Troops need cover to function best, and you can't fit many troops into the cover your deployment area will have. Spreading out makes you more resilient to enemy fire and enemy assaults. It also, helpfully, spreads your army out to help claim quarters and objectives without forcing them to move and lose turns shooting.

I'll second the advice to try a basilisk (or 2!). They have "mobility" of a sort...the ability to rapidly respond to what is most threatening on the field. IG armies can't move very well, so once they are set, they are limited in how they can respond to new enemy threats. Basilisks, however, can respond to almost any point on the field with powerful and fairly accurate fire (anything too close to his is probably meat for your massed guns anyhow). Basilisks would do well against any army, but especially Tau, marine, Necrons, etc. Instant-kill pie plates are great against FNP units like the death company.

Latest iteration in my quest to perfect the concept, taking into account the new advice. I agree that artillery is a boon for reacting to stuff I can't see, and also that my conscripts could use some Ld help. I've lost guns and a few bodies, but gained the ability to shell things out of LOS. I don't know if I'm comfortable with my firepower here, so criticism is invited.

Doctrines

Close-Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Heavy Weapons Platoons
Independent Commisars
Conscript Platoons

HQ

JO w/ ID

3x autocannon
3x autocannon
3x lascannon
3x lascannon

Elites

Independent commisar, attached to conscripts

Troops

Infantry Platoon

led by JO w/ ID

Squad 1: las
Squad 2: las
Squad 3: las
Squad 4: autocannon
Squad 5: autocannon

50 conscripts

Heavy Support

Heavy weapons platoon

led by JO w/ ID

3x lascannon
3x autocannon
3x autocannon

Basilisk w/ IF

Basilisk w/ IF

Total: 1750 pts

Final tally is as follows:

12 lascannon
14 autocannon
2 ordinance barrage
152 bodies

I'll infer from the deafening silence that this list has gotten about as good as it can get. Or, perhaps, that I'm completely, utterly, and totally off-base as to what consists of a competitive IG list. Let me know which

I personally like it, but I'm apparently a newb

Can the Commissar. Go with Gaunt.

Stop sticking lascannons on HW platoons until after ALL of your line squads have them.

awesome fannin, thats a great list to start with. You don't need to make any more changes to it before playtesting. Proxy the models if you need to, but you should play with this list asap. You may discover that you like conscripts you may just end up spamming infantry squads. Important things to know before going out and spending money/time on new units.

tweaking the list is the most fun part but can't be done with theory-hammer. Go forth and conquer! And take notes on the conquering!

Stelek, I appreciate the help but I need some rationale behind what you're telling me to change. With some clarification, it may make more sense, but right now, springing for Gaunt is totally against your idea of not spending 25 points for better leadership, which you were so vehemently arguing earlier.

Conscripts run away. Simple as that. Beating them in combat isn't difficult. You want them to stick around for as long as possible, under all circumstances.

Gaunt isn't a higher leadership, he's permanent fearless.

Fearless > not fearless in almost all circumstances.

With this unit, you don't want it running away. You want to throw it at the other guy and laugh as he shoots it.

A regular commissar costs 50 pts + gear. Gaunt costs 75...you see the value here?

Paying 25 points more to make the squad stay around forever is worth it IMO.

any time you fail a leadership test with an independent commissar, you trigger his summary execution rule, remove a 4 point conscript and automatically pass the test. this applies even in situations where there is no sergeant or officer in said unit as per the imperial guard FAQ.

Fearlessness is indeed better. but a 50 model conscript unit will probably have a model to spare to get executed so they can automatically pass their check. Saves 25 points on a strength 4 power weapon that you would be a lunatic to use, seeing as how that gets your fearlessness killed and in the case of gaunt, triggers an LD5 trademark item morale test.

In summary, Gaunt is better, he gives you a leadership 10 bubble, has true fearlessness, and in dire times, has a strength 4 power weapon, but if you aren't up for a special character that fluff-wise has no business running with your troops, and have a doctrine to spare, then just take the independent commissar. If you decide after playtesting that you want to improve your leadership quality, then gaunt is a great way to do that.