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If a squad with a flamer is firing at a unit that is 12 inches away, can the flamer still fire at that unit even though it's only an 8 inch long template? The obvious reason for this would be to barbeque a unit that was within range of the flamer. If the flamer si allowed to fire like this, what are the rules for how the template can be placed? Does it have to be on a path to potentially hit the unit 12" away?

If the weapon is out of range it does not fire.

But if you can just nick one of the bases in the far unit with the template, then the shot does go off, and you can fry the unit between the flamer and it's so-called target.

I remember this from an Ed question, I think, about flaming a Falcon in order to toast the guardian in front of it.

thanks for the clarification

bigchris1313 wrote:But if you can just nick one of the bases in the far unit with the template, then the shot does go off, and you can fry the unit between the flamer and it's so-called target.

I remember this from an Ed question, I think, about flaming a Falcon in order to toast the guardian in front of it.

That would then be in range and therefore not fit the question asked.

bigchris1313 wrote:I remember this from an Ed question, I think, about flaming a Falcon in order to toast the guardian in front of it.

That's legit, right? And I guess the point was to hit the falcon with an anti-tank weapon and wash the guardian with the flamer from the same squad?

What about hitting a rhino with a flamer to spash the marines sheltering behind it? Or does that hit LoS issues?

- Salvage

Yes, if the falcon is in range you can use a weapon of too low strength and hit the guys in between as long as you place the template so that the most coverage possible is hit (so pretty much directly at the vehicle in most cases). This can cause the models in between to be hit, and is a cheap but completely legal tactic.

You can't hit models you cannot see behind the vehicle because they are not in LOS, so they would not count for templates.

**Editted for clarity**

The range of a template weapon like a flamer is the length of the template, which is 8" long. See P. 31 of the rulebook you shelled out hard cash for.

snooggums wrote:You can't hit models you cannot see behind the vehicle because they are not in LOS, so they would not count for templates.

I think you might even be able to hit and wound, but your opponent would be prevented from removing them.

bigchris1313: Wrong. You cannot hit and since you cannot hit you cannot wound. You are, however, correct that those models could not be removed as casualties.

"Any individual models in the unit that don't have a line of sight to the target can't fire, and any models in the target unit that can't be seen by the attackers can't be hit or chosen as casualties (with the exception of barrage weapons - as explained later)." Line of Sight. P. 21.

Hence the "I think" as opposed to an outright assertion.

Yes, what you though was false because what was true was otherwise than what you thought. What's the problem?

There's no problem; I just wanted to reiterate that I'd given a disclaimer.

Fair enough.

Okay, so that means that plasma guns never overheat if the target is found to be just out of range? I thought you still had to roll even if you couldn't hit.

@ Neo- No, why would you roll an over-heat if you do not even get to shoot?
\
1,. Determine Target.
2. Delare target(within LOS rules).
3.Measure range.
4. IF the target is in range, roll to hit.

Nurglitch wrote:bigchris1313: Wrong. You cannot hit and since you cannot hit you cannot wound. You are, however, correct that those models could not be removed as casualties.

"Any individual models in the unit that don't have a line of sight to the target can't fire, and any models in the target unit that can't be seen by the attackers can't be hit or chosen as casualties (with the exception of barrage weapons - as explained later)." Line of Sight. P. 21.

I don't mean to be very annoying about this but this means you can't target a unit that is out of LOS. What says that a unit out of LOS can't be hit (other than the specific ordnance rule. I agree that it doesn't make sense for a flame to go up, over a vehicle and back down to hit the troops, that's not good physics.

Warhammer 40k isn't physics, it's a game. You might as well complain that The Order of the Stick is not photography.

Now don't worry, you're not being annoying. What says that a unit entirely outside of a shooting unit's line of sight cannot be hit is the cited rule. If a model cannot fire its weapon, nothing can be hit by that weapon. If a model cannot fire its weapon because it does not have a line of sight to a model in the target unit, then no model in the target unit can be hit. A weapon must shoot or fire before a template is placed or a to hit roll is made. If it cannot, it does not.

snooggums wrote:If the weapon is out of range it does not fire.

There is nothing in the rules that say the weapon does not fire.

However it does say that the weapon misses (I'll get a quote later tonight). So given this wording it does in fact fire.

Except the "Line of Sight" rule on P. 21 quoted above.

Nurglitch wrote:Warhammer 40k isn't physics, it's a game. You might as well complain that The Order of the Stick is not photography.

Now don't worry, you're not being annoying. What says that a unit entirely outside of a shooting unit's line of sight cannot be hit is the cited rule. If a model cannot fire its weapon, nothing can be hit by that weapon. If a model cannot fire its weapon because it does not have a line of sight to a model in the target unit, then no model in the target unit can be hit. A weapon must shoot or fire before a template is placed or a to hit roll is made. If it cannot, it does not.

I agree, but the Target can be seen, it's the tank right in front of the firing unit. Therefore the firining unit may fire the flamethrower. As per the flamer rules, any target under the template is automatically hit. Again I don't think that this is right and I don't agree with this happening (units behind a tank being hit by the flame thrower) because it doesn't make physical sense to me but I don't think that you can challenge the fact that the flamethrower can fire. I do recall something about not being able to draw a line of sight through a tank and there for not being able to hit a unit specifically stated in the 40K rule book but I'm not sure that that can but used in this case.

Models out of line of site simply can't be removed as casualties to a weapons fire. If your hiding behind a tank and can't be seen by the model with the flamer you can't be removed as a casualty. At this point whether or not you can be hit isn't important.

I won't comment on the rules in this issue, but as far as making sense, flamethowers fire liquid that arcs as it is projected. Most footage I've ever seen of flamethowers in action show the soldier targeting the area like a garden hose. I can easily imagine firing it over a wall or vehicle to bathe the other side...

Krak_kirby wrote:I won't comment on the rules in this issue, but as far as making sense, flamethowers fire liquid that arcs as it is projected. Most footage I've ever seen of flamethowers in action show the soldier targeting the area like a garden hose. I can easily imagine firing it over a wall or vehicle to bathe the other side...

Which is why it ignores cover saves normally. They just didn't go so far as to cause it to make casualties behind large objects.

Negativemoney wrote:

snooggums wrote:If the weapon is out of range it does not fire.

There is nothing in the rules that say the weapon does not fire.

However it does say that the weapon misses (I'll get a quote later tonight). So given this wording it does in fact fire.

As the template is placed after measuring distance, it is never placed because it is out of range. It also cannot be placed legally as it is required to be placed so that it covers as much of the tank as possible (out of range cannot cover any of the vehicle of course).

So I'm not going to even argue if it is "fired" or not, the template is never placed if the vehicle is out of range.

Zargyboy: As Dr Phibes points out models outside of a line of sight cannot be removed as casualties. If a model in a unit (A) is in range and line of sight of a tank model with its flamer then the template is placed over the tank model and the tank is hit automatically. If the template overlaps an infantry model from a different unit (B) that the flamer-carrying model in unit A does not have a line of sight to, then that infantry model cannot be removed as a casualty because it does not meet the conditions of being both in range and in line of sight.

snoogums: You are arguing if it is fired. "Fire/Fire/Shot/etc" are all terms used in Warhammer 40k to denote to hit dice being rolled or templates being placed. If the template is not placed because all models in the target unit are out of range, the weapon has not been fired.

Nurglitch wrote:Zargyboy: As Dr Phibes points out models outside of a line of sight cannot be removed as casualties. If a model in a unit (A) is in range and line of sight of a tank model with its flamer then the template is placed over the tank model and the tank is hit automatically. If the template overlaps an infantry model from a different unit (B) that the flamer-carrying model in unit A does not have a line of sight to, then that infantry model cannot be removed as a casualty because it does not meet the conditions of being both in range and in line of sight.

Just one more retort: pg 31 40K Rule book, "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit automatically." If squad A places a template on a tank and there are other models (squad B) under the template, they are hit. (Yes, I do see that this means that troops behind a wall would be hit, by saying this, if there was a wall between the tank and the squad but that doesn't affect my arguement.) pg 26 "The owning player can choose to remove any models from the unit, providing they are within line of fire and range of the attacker's weaponry" I'd argue that this is one of the rare times when "line of fire" is not the same as "line of sight" (yes, I know that they are the same "for all intensive purposes." The troops in squad B are quite literally in "line of fire."

Zargyboy: You're assuming several false things about the placement of templates. The first thing you're assuming is that more than one unit may be hit by the flamer. This is false, see P.18.


P. 18 "Shooting Phase"

"The whole unit has to fire all of its weaponry at a single opposing unit of your choice - you may not split fire between two or more target units."

The second thing you're assuming is that "line of fire" means something substantively different from "line of sight". This is also false, see diagrams on P.20. Likewise "line of fire" does not mean the same as "line of sight" for all intents or purposes in the game.

While one may have a line of sight without a line of fire, one must have a line of sight to have a line of fire. An enemy model is in a line of fire when it is in a line of sight and its unit has been attacked. The first diagram on P.20 shows units in lines of sight, while the second diagram shows models in lines of fire.

If unit A places a template on a unit B, but it overlaps another unit C, only unit B will be affected since a unit cannot split fire between two or more target units. Since a unit cannot split fire between two or more target units, only models in the target unit will be in the line of fire. A model must be in the line of fire and range to be affected by an attack and thus removed as a casualty (or lose wounds, or incur damage, etc).

So you can never hit another squad with a template then? I don't think that that is correct. Unit C is hit by the template, it was not directed at them. It seems to me that Line of sight implies who you can see and line of fire implies who you can hit. I agree that to have a line of fire you must frist see someone from the unit, normally. But the rules for a template weapon state that if the template lands on a model, it is hit; this, I believe, bypasses the need for LOS. Hence, the units are in line of fire but not necessarily, line of sight. Of course, if you say that a second unit cannot be hit by a flame template under any circumstances than I concede the argument.

I agree with Zargyboy on this one. After reading the rules for template weapons, targeting, line of site and the rest. Not only can you hit multiple units as long as you're covering as much of the target unit as possible, template weapons will certainly hit anything underneath them as long as the original target unit was legal to shoot at.