Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As in: do you get Victory Points for an independent character who is turned into a Squig via Zogwort's curse, regardless of whether the Squig survives the game?

For the purposes of this poll, dead means either killed or off-board.

I gotta go with Yes, it counts as dead.
The reason being the unit is in fact neutralized, and no longer of any function to it's original army. Much like a vehicle that is both immobilized and without a weapon. Or a dead thing.

Basically, my definition of "dead" includes "You can't use it anymore." Particularly if this is a result of enemy action.

The character is not dead. Just resting in another body for the moment. If you can't kill the squig you don't get the points for the character.

Is the model removed from the board with no chance to return?

The model should be considered as a casualty due to the fact that he is no longer present on the board and cannot return at any time. (Similar to swooping hawks sky leaping on turn five and failing to come in on turn 6)

The character is still there...

He is just in a hoppy, drooling, stinky form. He loses all his abilities and gear but is still alive.

The points stay with the squig until you kill him in my opinion.

Besides, using a Swooping Hawks analogy just doesn't fit as there is no deep strike involved. The character wasn't removed because you wanted to take the risk of him not returning. He was transformed into a squig against your will.

Gotta kill the squig.

Which, I might add, is infinitely more entertaining than "Abbadabbaddon is dead, oh and here's a squig for the hell of it. It does things."

- Salvage

I'd say yes, unless there was a way to get him back (I dont know the EXACT details on that particular power) I think that he's dead and gone. You've removed the model from the game through the action of an offencive ability. Sounds like a form of 'kill' to me.

While i disagree with the "yes he is dead" comments, at least this thread seems to have a balanced audience, unlike some other Ork threads lately

I like this discussion.

I think he (or she) does count as dead because the enemy can't use him. No matter how great a tactition you are, you just can't explain battle plans if you're a squig.

So in other words people are saying the squig has to be killed? By like walking him into a mine field or something? Thats slowed. The enemy model is dead, and no longer on the board.

No alex, the squig has a profile that is given for it in the Ork Codex. It can fight back and you can attack it as an Ork. So, people are asking if it still needs to be attacked and killed.

A side note, it doesn't state that they squig is treated any different than the model was before. It technically is still a part of it's previous squad if there was one and is still in complete control of your opponent.

Just calling things "slowed" does nothing for the conversation. Look at your evidence before you post an opinion. Throwing around blind opinions is like playing Russian Roulette.

Russian Roulette with a clip magazine. Think about it...

In any case, I guess 'killed' isnt the same as 'removed' but the point counting system doesnt seem to make the distinction. I'll have to review it when I get home for a more clear understanding. As for RAI, gee's...I dunno. Is the squig powerfull in any way? If so, I'd say take it at its normal points when you kill it. If not...*shrug* take the original models point value. Or better yet, take whichever is HIGHER. You had to 'transform' the model in the first place THEN kill the squig, you should be rewarded for that at the highest point value of the two at the very least. IMHO of course.

The squig is, by no means, powerful lol.

Let me break out my codex and look at the EXACT wording.

..."the target model is replaced with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the Squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an Independent Character that counts as Infantry."

It doesnt say you kill...just says replace. Also, when replaced, the original controller still has full control of them and can join whatever squads he chooses, as the IC rules state.

There is no exact points value for the squig so the only value you could earn would be that of the IC. They used the word "replaced" and then go to describe that it looses everything but it's IC status. In no way does it say the model is killed nor does it word any sentence in that description to have you believe so. It just says, "your IC is now a Squig...here you go...play with a new stat line." I believe you have to physically kill the model to get the points for it.

The only thing that the Victory Points system might suggest is half points value, but then again, the IC hasn't taken any damage at all. That is the key for this argument. There is absolutely no damage done.

Hmm...under that argument then I'd have to say that the Squig is worth the full IC points only when wounded and killed. So...no, just turning it into the Squig isnt enough for the points.

(Why yes, this IS a reversal of my former position. I can do that in the face of evidence. Crazy I know)

The rules say this:

Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an Independent Character model that is in Zogwort's line of sight. If that model is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the Squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an Independant Character that counts as Infantry.

Say I'm using Eldrad. By Eldrad, I mean the unit "Eldrad Ulthran", with stats and abilities as described in the entry in the Eldar codex marked "Eldrad Ulthran". My no-good dirty Ork opponent decides he doesn't like Eldrad Dooming his boyz into oblivion all the time, and uses Zoggy to turn him into a squig. Is "Eldrad Ulthran" still on the table? No, he has been replaced by a different model with its own entry. He is by definition "off-table", and thus gives up full VPs.

I think the question is misleading because units (ICs) don't have to be "dead" to give up Victory Points, just off the table at the end of the game.

I know that proviso is added in the first post but, for example, I voted before I noticed it, and I'm guessing others may have too.


The character model is off the table at the end of the game and therefore gives up Victory Points regardless of what has happened to the squig since then.

I don't really see any basis in the rules to play it any other way.

I agree with the Yak. The character in question is removed from play and replaced with a Squig.

I disagree with Yakface, the character model is now the squig model.

Also please remember its easy to kill the squig. You dont need to suicide it into minefields its your OPPONENTS squig. So you can just clobber it.

As this is clearly a magical effect, and in fact breaks the game setting in any number of ways. It isnt a mutation like a spawn, but a transformation into something specific. It could well be reversible, it might even wear off by itself.

The character model is not 'off the table' if the squig model is still there. After all if an IC enters a transport (or bunker), the piece of plastic or metal representing him is not on the table, but he gives up no VP for this so long as the vehicle is.

The squig is simply the new representation of the IC. The rules even state the squig is an IC infantry model. Hive Tyrant/Grand Master/Autarch/Daemon Prince/Captain/Colonel/C'Tan squig can enter transports, join and lead! squads.

Zogworts Curse is powerful enough as it is. It's not an install kill.

I think the real question is does Zogworts power overrule targeting restrictions against IC's?
Just because you can only target IC's doesnt necesarily mean you can single them out when they are not valid targets.

I hadnt given Zogwort much thought up until now. I found it to be a stupid rule, and paid it no further attention. Now I see it as a contentious rule that can cause problems.

In addition to the VP problems,
and the targeting problems I have further questions:

1. Does Zogwort need to make a psychic test to use this power. I presume yes, but the rules say nothing.

2. If you turn a Tau Ethereal into a squig, does it trigger the 'Price of Failure' rules? Another "is he dead" question, but different than whether the model counts for VP.

3. If you have no suitable squig model for your opponent to use what happens? Does the spell fail as with a zombie summoning exheeding the number of zombies you have available. Is the character still removed anyway.


I think this rools brainfart needs a good Q&A.

Orlanth wrote:the character model is now the squig model.

Who told you?

The rules just say that the enemy character is replaced with the squiq.
Well, what does replace mean?
I think most of us replaced a CD in the CD player some time.
How does it work?
You remove the old CD and put in a new one.
If you try to put a new one in without removing the old one it won`t work! (srsly, I tried it )

It is the same thing in-game.
You replace the character with the squiq.
So you remove the character and put the squiq in play.
What is removed is not on the tapletop at the end of the game and therefor a casuality.

Thats how i see it.

nice thread, keep it up

FuzzyOrb wrote:

Orlanth wrote:the character model is now the squig model.

Who told you?

The rules just say that the enemy character is replaced with the squiq.
Well, what does replace mean?
I think most of us replaced a CD in the CD player some time.
How does it work?
You remove the old CD and put in a new one.
If you try to put a new one in without removing the old one it won`t work! (srsly, I tried it )

It is the same thing in-game.
You replace the character with the squiq.
So you remove the character and put the squiq in play.
What is removed is not on the tapletop at the end of the game and therefor a casuality.

Thats how i see it.

nice thread, keep it up

I have to disagree.

Consider for a moment, you field a Shas'El. He is represented by a model (The Shas'El Model).

The power doesn't state that you replace the Shas'El with the squig, it states that you replace The Shas'El Model with a squig that has a certain profile.

Thus, The Shas'El is now a squig, but still the Shas'El.

Therefore, he is not dead.

TragicNut wrote:Consider for a moment, you field a Shas'El. He is represented by a model (The Shas'El Model).

The power doesn't state that you replace the Shas'El with the squig, it states that you replace The Shas'El Model with a squig that has a certain profile.

Thus, The Shas'El is now a squig, but still the Shas'El.

Therefore, he is not dead.

"For all models - used in the loosest sense, to encompass those proxying with mere empty bases or even collections of pixels with no physical board - in warhammer, of both flavors, are purely representational," intoned Eldrad Clone #998671. Roughly half of the Dakkite hordes noded in agreement, but some of the noisier scamps continued to chitter on all the same.



- Salvage

TragicNut wrote:

The power doesn't state that you replace the Shas'El with the squig, it states that you replace The Shas'El Model with a squig that has a certain profile.

Thus, The Shas'El is now a squig, but still the Shas'El.

Therefore, he is not dead.

I got your point and i knew that it would come .

Nevertheless, i didn't figure out how to deal with it yet.
You are absolutely right with the wording.
A matter of interpretation...
But I think if the IC was really dead, GW would have added the term "counts as casuality for VP purposes..."

I'm not sure yet, curious what is yet to come. :-)

I'd have to agree that you actually need to kill the squig in order to gain the victory points.

I mean, the whole power just seems cheesy if victory points are awarded for simply turning the model into a squig. Sure, the model has been reduced to a scrawny, angry and frightened slob of teeth, but it would completely counter other special rules given for certain models, such as the eternal warriors rule or Abbadabba's immunity to insta-kill.

Surely, if the chaos gods are strong enough to gift daemon princes and evil, genetically enhanced men with protection against demolisher cannon shells with god-knows how many pounds of high explosives, a cheesy spell that turns you into a squig and doesn't actually kill you shouldn't be BETTER than flaming-plasma-death-of-certain-destruction!

Yakface posted a strong reasoning for the opposite, but I figure that around 150 pts worth of a mandatory HQ slot (which can also give your entire army fleet for a turn...) shouldn't be allowed to insta-gib characters worth 200 - 300+ worth of points who have been given specific rules to ensure that they can't be insta-gibbed with a lucky shot.

True, the power has a short range, and it requires line of sight, but it has far too much potential, especially when on a model that has T 5 and IC-character protection. (And an army with unit sizes up to 30 models!)
Besides, there's nothing that forbids you from taking a transport for the character (even if the transports are quite fragile), and in the likely event that his ride gets blasted before he makes it into range, Ol' Zoggy has a backup plan in the form of a good chance to teleport closer or boost up his speed with fleet.

If I lose my C'tan / Phoenix lord / Daemon prince / Hive tyrant / whatever multi-wound IC to insta-kill with no protection against it, AMD my opponent gets to add insult in the form of a green ball of goo, I demand that they at least kill said goo-ball so I can preserve some of my dignity!

oh wait, I re-read the codex. The first time I read it I thought it said that it goes under MY control. If its still under opponents control, then I would say you have to kill the model still. I would like to change my vote.

I take this as the same situation as a Greater Deamon in the old chaos codex taking over the aspiring champ. The aspiring champion is removed and the GD is put in its place. It is its own model, its own points. The Asp Champ gives up his points and position in the old squad. If the squad was originally 6 guys and got wittled down to two guys and the asp champ. Then the GD shows up, that squad is now at half strength even though one of its former members is now running amuck across the battlefield.

The squig is the same thing. The IC is removed from the table, the squig is put into its place. It is a unit of 1. It is no longer part of the original unit the IC was attached to (if any). The IC gives up all of its points as it is off the table at the end of the game, just as the aspiring champion gave up half his points when the unit became under half strength (or all of his points if the last two guys bite it) even though the GD may still be around at the end of the game.

What you do have now, is another different independant character that is well... a squig. Good luck with that.

As for it not being fair. Yeah right. Its not quite as easy to get off as many assume. First zoggy is expensive in his own right and really doesn't bring anything to the table that other equivalently pointed characters do from other codexs. Also the power isn't a sure thing. First there are tons of anti-psycher stuff that he has to get through, and then he still has a roll off where a tie goes to the opponent, thus a less than 50% chance of it working.

How easy, broken, expensive, or usefull isn't really the question however. Nor is how often you'll run in to this situation sadly. Its a question of 'is it dead or not'.

I must say...I really don't know now. The transport point really brings this into question. If by the strictest sense the model is required to be on the table physically to count for points, then what happens when its in a transport at the end of the game? Would anyone win the argument that it doesn't count because its not directly on the table? I dont think so. The 'replace' effect isn't specific enough though, I cant personally tell if it means 'The IC is now the Squig' or 'A squig is now there and the IC is gone'. Hurray for bad wording.

Orlanth:

The character model is not 'off the table' if the squig model is still there. After all if an IC enters a transport (or bunker), the piece of plastic or metal representing him is not on the table, but he gives up no VP for this so long as the vehicle is.

That is a disputed issue, one that deserves a thread of its own (and has received it more than once). You're on shaky ground if you want to use that as a premise.

TragicNut:

The power doesn't state that you replace the Shas'El with the squig, it states that you replace The Shas'El Model with a squig that has a certain profile.

Thus, The Shas'El is now a squig, but still the Shas'El.

Therefore, he is not dead.

"The Shas'El" has no existence independent of "the Shas'El model". They are the same thing. Show me one place in the rulebook or a codex that makes a gameplay distinction between the unit and the models that constitute it.

Jayden63 wrote:
As for it not being fair. Yeah right. Its not quite as easy to get off as many assume. First zoggy is expensive in his own right and really doesn't bring anything to the table that other equivalently pointed characters do from other codexs. Also the power isn't a sure thing. First there are tons of anti-psycher stuff that he has to get through, and then he still has a roll off where a tie goes to the opponent, thus a less than 50% chance of it working.

I assume this is directed at me for the "somewhat" whiny post I made...

I guess the theorizing about Zoggy's potential went too far (and kinda off-topic), but the point was that in order to prevent confusion from using the power on models with eternal warriors and the like, I'd rule that the squig actually still needs to be killed in order to give out its full VP value. That way, we'd actually get a rule that has no exceptions to it (as I consider that if a model is giving its full VP amount to the opponent, it is in fact dead, while in this case the model remains a weak and pathetic squig).

Besides, if the model is turned into a squig, it probably is in charge / shoota range and it seems to me as very orky indeed to go squig-hunting.

Its not that difficult.

Turn the IC into a squig then assault one of his own units. They kill him and you get the points just like you would if your opponent killed any other of his own models.

Easy done.