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yakface wrote:
I think the question is misleading because units (ICs) don't have to be "dead" to give up Victory Points, just off the table at the end of the game.
The character model is off the table at the end of the game and therefore gives up Victory Points regardless of what has happened to the squig since then.

So a Character in a Rhino at the end of the game would also give up victory points if it is the model that matters?

I haven't read the book or faced the power i would say turned to squig still alive half points dead whole points my 2 cents

Ravenous D wrote:Its not that difficult.

Turn the IC into a squig then assault one of his own units. They kill him and you get the points just like you would if your opponent killed any other of his own models.

Easy done.

The Ork player doesn't get to control the Squig, the opposing player does. And since the Squig is an IC it really isn't hard to keep him from being shot or assaulted/

snooggums wrote:

yakface wrote:
I think the question is misleading because units (ICs) don't have to be "dead" to give up Victory Points, just off the table at the end of the game.
The character model is off the table at the end of the game and therefore gives up Victory Points regardless of what has happened to the squig since then.

So a Character in a Rhino at the end of the game would also give up victory points if it is the model that matters?

By the RAW yes.

Here is the official GW ruling

"If you encounter a rules problem during one of your games and cannot find the answer in the rulebook or any other Games Workshop resource, dice off to decide on a temporary answer and get on with your game."

Seems pretty clear cut to me. Plus, for fluff purposes, i would say that you still have to kill the model, and most people i play against agree with me ::shrug::

yakface wrote:


The Ork player doesn't get to control the Squig, the opposing player does. And since the Squig is an IC it really isn't hard to keep him from being shot or assaulted/

Well that changes it slightly.

Although, Zogwart will more then likely be in a mob of 10 or more orks, and if people have the good sense they will use shoota boyz who also have a range of 18". Or you have an assault unit standing by to unload into the IC and his unit.

The squig IC is only T2 with no save, so 1 S4 hit will end him. All you need is a single hit from shooting or CC.

In other words, remember to do zogwort first before the rest of the shooting

Ravenous D wrote:

Well that changes it slightly.

Although, Zogwart will more then likely be in a mob of 10 or more orks, and if people have the good sense they will use shoota boyz who also have a range of 18". Or you have an assault unit standing by to unload into the IC and his unit.

The squig IC is only T2 with no save, so 1 S4 hit will end him. All you need is a single hit from shooting or CC.

In other words, remember to do zogwort first before the rest of the shooting

As I pointed out, the squig is an IC so unless he was running around on his own before he was turned into a squig you aren't allowed to shoot him because of the IC targeting restriction.

yakface wrote:


As I pointed out, the squig is an IC so unless he was running around on his own before he was turned into a squig you aren't allowed to shoot him because of the IC targeting restriction.

Well you can only kill what you are in range of.

90% of people seem to put their ICs in the front of the unit, and if you are in range with Zogwart all it takes is a little positioning of the shoota boyz combined with torrent of fire and you'll probably toast the sucker.

It just takes a little bit of Morks (or is it Gorks?) kunnin' to deal with it.

The first time I read Zogwort's rules, I thought "yep, you have to kill the squig to get the VP."

Although Yakface has pointed out the rule that suggests that the IC gives up the VP immediately, it seems much more orky (mean and funny) to replace your opponent's prized HQ choice with a little squig and watch them scurry around trying to keep it alive and thus preserve the VP in the original unit.

Orlanth wrote:I hadnt given Zogwort much thought up until now. I found it to be a stupid rule, and paid it no further attention. Now I see it as a contentious rule that can cause problems.

In addition to the VP problems,
and the targeting problems I have further questions:

1. Does Zogwort need to make a psychic test to use this power. I presume yes, but the rules say nothing.

2. If you turn a Tau Ethereal into a squig, does it trigger the 'Price of Failure' rules? Another "is he dead" question, but different than whether the model counts for VP.

3. If you have no suitable squig model for your opponent to use what happens? Does the spell fail as with a zombie summoning exheeding the number of zombies you have available. Is the character still removed anyway.


I think this rools brainfart needs a good Q&A.

The rules say "may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the...chart". so Yes he makes a Psychic test.

Ravenous D wrote:Its not that difficult.

Turn the IC into a squig then assault one of his own units. They kill him and you get the points just like you would if your opponent killed any other of his own models.

Easy done.

What? Are you under the impression that the Ork player controls the squig? If so, they don't, it is still an IC infantry model under the control of your opponent.

As for the topic, I think you'd have to kill the Squig, it seem more likely, as the Squig is an IC like the character it replaced. This seems to me like the intention was to make it a transformation from one form to another. So the character is alive and still worth it's victory points. GW don't clarify this enough for the hard core tournament gamers who love their RAW. But I think they meant it that way, not a cheesy Insta-kill role off that, though hard to achieve, is a little over powered.
If its just a "your character is now just teeth, legs and target practice" I think it's fun and not so powerful.

Thats how I'll be playing it anyway. Just in Apocalypse mind, he's a little pricey but hell of a lot of fun in Apoc I think.

IIRC (and maybe I don't), ICs give up half their VPs if they lose half or more of their wounds. I don't have the squig profile in front of me, but I seem to remember that it only has 1 wound. If the IC that was turned into a squig started out with more than 1 wound, then he has lost at least half his wounds, thereby granting the Ork player some VPs just through the successful use of the curse. There are certainly other ways in the game to change a target's profile (reducing their Ld to X for remained of game, reducing WS, etc). The Curse changes things a bit more dramatically and they require a cute little squig model just to rub it in the opponent's face a bit...

As for the actual topic, I throw my hat in for the 'does not count as dead' ruling. The rules don't say the IC is dead. Zogwort's Curse RAW says the model (the table-top representation of the IC) is replaced with something that has a new profile. That is a very different thing than the model being dead IMHO.

If you do not kill the squig then the character can not count as dead as he very obviously is still alive.

It is however worth noting that if the character is a multiple wound model then he has been reduced to 1 wound and all that this meens.

My interpretation of the power is that Old Zogs polymorph is not permanent, given time the character will turn back however "time" here may be days, weeks, months even years and thus for game purpouses he is down to 1 wound

Sigh. . .

Models don't have to be dead to give up their victory points, just off the table.

I don't think anyone is disputing that point yak... (I think you might have misread fester's comment as I did at first)

The IC is still on the table and he may have given up half his VPs (if he was originally a multi-wound IC). The Curse has just changed his stats. A model's stats can be changed by many means during a game. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily mean he has been killed or removed from the table. The replacement of the original model with that of a squig is the sticking point. Does replacing the original model with that of a squig mean the IC is no longer on the table? IMHO it does not... It just means he can no longer benefit from any of his original wargear or other abilites. He is still an IC (alive and kicking) as the rule states.

Beast wrote:I don't think anyone is disputing that point yak... (I think you might have misread fester's comment as I did at first)

The IC is still on the table and he may have given up half his VPs (if he was originally a multi-wound IC). The Curse has just changed his stats. A model's stats can be changed by many means during a game. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily mean he has been killed or removed from the table. The replacement of the original model with that of a squig is the sticking point. Does replacing the original model with that of a squig mean the IC is no longer on the table? IMHO it does not... It just means he can no longer benefit from any of his original wargear or other abilites. He is still an IC (alive and kicking) as the rule states.

Totally agree. Well put too.

In my house I'd say that you would get half the victory points for turning him into the squig, and half for killing the squig.

As long as the Squig lives, then no points for the Squigified IC.

Death to the Squig!