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List I:

Lord, Shield, Pistol, RW: First Strike & +1 hit, RT: 4+ ward, Shieldbearers (Joins Hammerers)
BSB, RB: +1 CR, -D6 enemy charge, UnitStr x2 (Joins Hammerers)
Master Engineer, Brace of Pistols, RA: 1+ save & reroll failed saves (Joins Cannon #1)
Hammerers (21+Champ+Lord+BSB), Shields, full command
Miners (19+Champ), full command
Warriors #1 (23+Champ), Shields, full command
Warriors #2 (23+Champ), GreatW, full command
Thunderers (9+Champ), Shields, full command
Cannon #1 (3+Master Engineer Hero), R: Flaming attacks, fires every turn regardless, +1 CR
Cannon #2 (3+Engineer), R: Flaming attacks, fires every turn regardless, Unbreakable
Gyrocopter

Total: 2250pts on the spot!


List II:

Lord, Shield, Pistol, RW: First Strike & +1 hit, RT: 4+ ward, Shieldbearers
BSB, RB: +1 CR, -D6 enemy charge, UnitStr x2
Master Engineer, Brace of Pistols, RA: 1+ save & reroll failed saves (Joinar Bolt Throwern)
Hammerers (21+Champ+Lord+BSB), Shields, full command
Miners (19+Champ), full command
Warriors #1 (23+Champ), Shields, full command
Warriors #2 (23+Champ), GreatW, full command
Thunderers (11+Champ), Shields, full command
Bolt Thrower (3+Master Engineer Hero), R: Flaming attacks, +1 Str, +1 CR
Cannon (3+Engineer), R: Flaming attacks, fires every turn regardless, Unbreakable
Gyrocopter

Total: 2250pts on the spot!




I havn't realy played since 5th edition, so thus I go here for advice and pointers on the lists. Yes, they both lack anti-magic and anti-fear/terror, and barely makes up on that with the strength of the Dwarves (artillery and ranged supremancy), but this is my somewhat fluffy initial approach. Feel free to hack it appart! (Constructivity gains virtual cookies! )

Alrighty..... step by step

Lord, Shield, Pistol, RW: First Strike & +1 hit, RT: 4+ ward, Shieldbearers (Joins Hammerers)

-Alrighty, we need a beefier lord here..... Try

Dwarf Lord-298
-Shield, Shieldbearers
Runic Weapon- Master Rune of Skalf Blackhammer, Rune of Snorri Spangellhelm
Runic Armor-Rune of Resistance

So he hits on a 2+, wounds on a 2+, and gets a re-rollable 1+ save


BSB, RB: +1 CR, -D6 enemy charge, UnitStr x2 (Joins Hammerers)

I'm not liking this guy.... battle standard bearers are great, they add +1 to CR (without the banner), and let you re-roll leadership.... but I like my heroes to be able to fight. Your standard isn't doing much, it's just adding another +1 banner, and nothing else. Anything about to charge dwarves shouldn't be worried about losing D6 inches from their charge. A calvary unit can get 7 inches away from you, lose 6 inches off their charge, and still be able to charge you next turn, with an extra 1" to spare.

I advise doing this....

Thane-165
-Battle Standard Bearer
Runic Weapon- 2 Rune of Fury, Rune of Cleaving
Runic Armor- Rune of Stone

This guy has 5 strength 5 attacks and a 3+ armor save, AND he gets the +1 CR for being a BSB, that's a lot better CR overall

Master Engineer, Brace of Pistols, RA: 1+ save & reroll failed saves (Joins Cannon #1)

I wouldn't ever take a master engineer, because I wouldn't ever take cannons. Bolt Throwers essentially do the same thing, and you get twice as many. I recommend dropping him and taking a thane with a greatweapon with Master Rune of Kragg the Grim, and 2 Runes of Fury for 139 points.

He'd then be doing 5 str 6 attacks.... which leads to lots of CR

Hammerers (21+Champ+Lord+BSB), Shields, full command

Spread your heroes out, especially if you choose the format for them that I suggested.... each of them should be killing around 3 enemies a turn, and so each can handle their own.

Miners (19+Champ), full command

-Eh, I'd take fewer of these guys, or get rid of them to add more bolt throwers

Warriors #1 (23+Champ), Shields, full command
Warriors #2 (23+Champ), GreatW, full command

-Good, but you want your squads to have 25 models, unless you plan on doing ranks of 6...

Thunderers (9+Champ), Shields, full command

-10 Thunderers are useless by themselves, drop these points for bolt throwers


Cannon #1 (3+Master Engineer Hero), R: Flaming attacks, fires every turn regardless, +1 CR
Cannon #2 (3+Engineer), R: Flaming attacks, fires every turn regardless, Unbreakable

-Like I said, regular bolt throwers are better than cannons.... and you doing need to upgrade your cannons for combat... if they get hit in combat, they're dead.

Gyrocopter

Rare choices for dwarves need to be taken in pairs. If you want gyrocopters, take 2, if you want organ guns, take two

Units are aimed to be in 4 ranks, 6 wide.


I can see your point with the characters, only that I'd rather go with the always strike first, else I'll get killing blow:ed every single challenge.


The -D6 charge is there for the few times it DOES matter, as it will then give me a nice and juicy target to counter-charge the next turn! And I have been the victim of a full elite guard unit with full ranks, command BSB in, granted it was the flimsy pansies (HE) but between the insaane spear rank fighting and the silly always strike first racial, the stacking of CR bonuses ment that I got owned HARD. (I used my Cult of Slaanesh. ) I can't let my Lord leave the hammerers as that will loose the synergy. And tossing the BSB into a more or less sacrifical unit is folly... Then I'd rather get another 24-dwarf unit or a couple of thunderer units extra by dropping him altogether! And no BSB is bad for morale.


The Master Engineer is a protective part of my battle plan as there tend to be tons of eagles and other evil stuff that decends upon the warmachines on turn 2, he will add a nice oomph in melee for one of the cannons/BTs as well as adding some bonuses. (BS5 is nice for the BT! )


You are essentially telling me to drop the cannons and thunderers along with the Master Engineer to take 6x BTs instead? That, along with enhaced characters will kill my Comp and earn me a spot among the min-compers ( ) first round! (And thus get spelled to hell, or Chariotted / arrowed / cav charged whatever into oblivion. I will consider it, but with 6-8 warmachines (besides the high cost of getting another 7 BTs and another Gyro) my comp is getting dangerously low, from early 20s to maybe as low as 10-11(!). _IF_ I'd opt for warmachine heavy approach,I'd rather take 3 or 4 cannons. (As I got 3x skullpass ones and can easily get a 4th from a friend who quit the game, thus not needing to buy that many BTs! )


The general weaknesses of hte dwarves are the lack of Magic defence, psycology (fear/terror, partly offset by my high US) and the snail speed manuvering. (In a game where 99% of it is manuvering to outflank the enemy, can be offset by oathstones to a degree, but nothing I'd like to rely on. ) The lack of manuverable firepower (beside the Gyro) is also a pain, even my scouting elements have "move or fire" ranged weaponry!



Thanks alot for the constructive feedback! Might not be 100% to my playstyle, but it is always good to look beyond and consider other options than those one goes for per default!

According to our resident dwarf player, a dwarf lord on shieldbearers can't be "killing blowed" because he is unit strength 3, and therefore is not a man sized target, like an ogre.... don't know if it's true or not, but something to look into

Allrighty, here's my 2 cents:

The characer & bsb equipment are a bit off imho. Thanes and lord only have strength 4, so in order to generate some offensive punch they need either gw or a runic weapon which gives them more strength and/or ability to bypass armor saves. In this case I'd just add rune of cleaving to the weapon to up the lords str to 5, so he can wound general rank & file easier and also give noticable modifier to armor saves. I'd also like to point out that fighty dwarf characters should in my opinion just try to boost their survivabiltiy (which they have ample good options for) and not on killyness (which can be usually taken care of by just giving the hero a great weapon or one weapon rune).
If you're worried about killing blow, it's good to notice that the lord on shieldbeares is immune to it by RAW, as he has unit strength 3. Also, killing blow is relatively rare actually, so no need to worry too much about it. I'll give you an example how I would run a (relatively) fighty but extra survivable lord and bsb:

Dwarf Lord - Shieldbeares, Shield, Armor with: Rune of Stone,Rune of Resistance,Master Rune of Steel, Weapon with: Rune of Cleaving,Rune of Speed.
The reason why I removed the ward is because I feel you need it with the bsb as the 1+ save is taken by engineer. In any case the lord with this setup is really hard to budge too, as all stuff vs him is max str 5 and he has 2+ rerollable armor save vs that (and as he has bearers, he's immune to KB). The only downside is that the guy is relatively vulnerable to opposing combat characters with "no armor save" weapons, but those are _extra_ rare. About the only thing who usually has that is a daemon prince with blade of ether in some chaos armies. If you have a lot of extra points, you can give the lord a shooting weapon, but that's one of the first things to leave out if you need some extra. If you alterate character setup more, you can also switch the MR of steel for the 4+ ward, the basic role of the lord stays the same. You can also give somebody either rune of fire or rune of speed for their weapon if you have duplicates of single rune of cleaving-weapons.

Regarding the thane with the flag, it's usually sound to give this guy some protective gear too instead of loading up on banner rules, as it makes him harder to kill and keeps him around longer spreading his rerolls and +1 cr. Remember also that you can give elite units runic banners so you don't have to depend solely on the bsb with that. It's good to notice also, that the bsb in itself doesn't do that much in combat, altough a single rune of cleaving can help with that. A example setup for bsb could be:
Dwarf BSB - Armor with: Rune of Stone, Talisman with: Master Rune of Spite, Weapon with: Rune of Cleaving. (a good choice also would be the +1 rerollable save, but it's one the engineer at this point).

The master engineer is a neat trick, but he needs a couple more toys to be more effective. The +1 rerollable is great for tying up pretty much everything, but this guy really needs a great weapon for close combat so he could dish more credible damage, as brace of pistols isn't as good anymore in close combat. At this point it's very handy to make the prime location (ie warmachine) of your engineer unbreakable with the rune to avoid fear-autobreaks (as many warmachinehunters cause fear).

One glaring weakness with this list is that it doesn't have any extra magic defense. It's all good if you face only couple small magic missiles, but many armies have a change to take far more dangerous spells and versus heavy or even moderate magic, you'll have problems with only 4 dd. Well, runesmith to the rescue then.
Runesmith - GW, Shield, 2xRune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Stone
This guy is a needed magic defense boost and also brings some combat prowess to the table. Just remember to save the scrolls for crucial spells. You'll have to do some tweaking to get the points (131) for this guy, but I'd say it's worth it.

Regarding the rest:
One thing the hammerers (for example) aren't immune is panic. Ld 10 sure helps there, but adding a unit of longbeards would help against it. Even a small support unit would do, altough I dunno where to get the points for that. Without the anvil, the big unit of miners is a good candidate for downgrading/removal, though.

Dwarfs in general are not very killy, so it's a smart idea to rely on static combat res as long as possible. I'd advise you to keep anything else besides the hammerers 5 wide (and even with the hammeres, it's certainly not a bad idea). You could shave off couple of points by getting dwarfs only by 5 in this way (20 warriors per unit, and 10 thunderers). Thunderers generally don't want flags, as you want to avoid close combat with the if you have the chance. If you get in fights with only them, the opponent doesn't usually have too hard a time breaking them, in which case he's 100pts on top with the captured standard. If you're running the champ with these guys, it's good to give him pistols as it makes the units stand and shoot very deadly. Also, if you're set on using the big unit of miners, better give the prospector a steamdrill so these guys show up better.

About the warmachines, the cannon really needs rune of forging (especially if you use master engineer with it). It makes the machine far more accurate and reliable this way. The fires every turn rune is usually pretty worthless, especially if you take RoForging which prevents those misfires usually. Also, if you're using only 1 bolt thrower, it's generally a good idea to give it the rune of penetrating as the str7 will bust chariots straight out. Give this thing a normal engineer always, as bs4 is a huge boost. If you're running a "super" warmachine with the engineer, better give that thing the valiant rune as I discussed earlier. Generally I like the mix of 1 bolter and 1 cannon better especially if you're running with a str7 bolter. 1 Extra bolter with just the engineer wouldn't hurt though. Gyro is a solid choice, altough I'd like to add organ gun to the force, as it's the best thing in the book apart from unmodified Thorek. Beware though, as especially 2 organs are pure .

edit: Forgot to mention, that one very neat rune for the dwarves is the master rune of challenge as it can force some annoying stuff to charge some of your anvils (or flee).

Dwarf Lord @ 296 Pts
General; Shieldbearers; Great Weapon; Gromril Armour
Runic Armour [5]
Rune of Stone
Runic Talisman [45]
Master Rune of Spite
Runic Weapon [70]
Master Rune of Kragg the Grim
Rune of Fury
Rune of Snorri Spangelheim
BSB @ 190 Pts
Gromril Armour; Battle Standard
Runic Banner [100]
Master Rune of Fear
Rune of Stoicism
Master Engineer @ 130 Pts
Brace of Pistols; Gromril Armour
Runic Armour [50]
Master Rune of Gromril
Rune of Resistance
21 Hammerers @ 303 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Full Command
20 Warriors @ 205 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield; Full Command
20 Longbeards @ 315 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Full Command
Runic Banner [30]
Rune of Courage
10 Thunderers @ 155 Pts
Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Musician, Kaptain
20 Miners @ 275 Pts
Blasting Charges; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Full Command
1 Bolt Thrower @ 95 Pts
Engineering Runes [50]
Rune of Burning
Rune of Penetrating
Valiant Rune
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Light Armour
1 Cannon @ 145 Pts
Engineer
Engineering Runes [35]
Rune of Forging
1 Engineer @ [20] Pts
Brace of Pistols; Light Armour
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Light Armour
1 Gyrocopter @ 140 Pts

Dispel Pool: 4
Models in Army: 104
Total Army Cost: 2249


I would realy like to ad a brace of pistols to the Thunderer Kaptain, but lack 1pts to do so(!). Silly, I know... :( Maybe if I include a Runesmith, and thus shave points anyway I might find room for it! Speaking of that, in order to actuly afford a Runesmith, I need to drop the Gyro or shrink units, both hard losses IMO. IF I take a Runesmith I will most likely go for the Ballance rune, as it removes a PD for the enemy and gives me an extra DD. Fair play, eh? For survivability of BSB and Runesmithy, I can "grow a beard" and plant them both in the middle of the Hammerer Unit, untargetable but still fill their role. :evil:


Longbeards in there, and banner-immuned to fear/terror and will thus act as one cornerstone to the army in their own right!


The miners? They are somewhere inbetween Warriors and Longbeards, and their Blasting Charges can be handy at times too. They are fluffy and moreso even FUN. (Jokes about "lost dwarves" are so easy to come by if they fail to turn up, or "just" turn up too late... ) And Having an unit "automatically" in the enemy deployment midgame is never wrong. It is handy for threatening Warmachines, grabbing objectives and generally force the opponent to consider this threat at his rear. (Fleeing troopers nearby? Let's chase them with the Gyro toward the Miners! )



BTW, thanks ALOT for the _extreamly_ constructive critisism, Chaoslord! It sure made an inpact! How do you rate my changes above? And is a Runesmith a worthy enoth addition to loose the ever so usefull Gyro?

Here is my 2000 point Dwarf list that I have been using thus far, with two interchangeable options that I haven't settled on yet. Option 1 provides some extra magic protection and the ability to force funny charges by enemy units into my slayers usually wrecking enemy lines or pulling in a unit breaking for my arty in the back line. Option 2 gives me a strong hero and a large block of great weapons for close combat and some extra panic protection for my battle line. Both of the options really shine in different situations and generally are chosen based on what armies I think I will be facing more of in a given day. Thoughts and comments are always welcome. I try to stay away from the organ but I generally add it in higher point games (less wine is needed for the calls of at that level).


Core part of the army (1425 points)
10 Thunderers
10 Thunderers
20 warriors w/ Standard Bearer and Musician
20 warriors w/ Standard Bearer and Musician
20 Hammerers w/ Standard Bearer, Champion, Musician, Rune of Grungni
10 Slayers
Bolt Thorwer w/ Engineer
Bolt Thorwer w/ Engineer
Cannon w/ Engineer
Gyrocopter

Option 1:
Rune Lord and Anvil
Thane (BSB) w/ Rune of Gaurding, Rune of Battle
Dragon Slayer w/ Grudge Axe of Swiftness, Warhorn of Challenge

Option 2:
Dwarf Lord w/ shield bearers, Talisman of Spite and Furnace, Armour of Preservation and Stone, Axe of Might and Swiftness
20 Longbeards with Great Weapons, Standard Bearer, Champion, Musician

The 2k list(s) look pretty good to me, and I like the 2250 list better now,

Here's some additional comments for the latter 2250 list, though.
If I'd run a bsb with plethora of banner runes, I generally try to squeeze in rune of guarding so he's less likely to be killed outright. All dwarf shooting units should generally get shields as with small investment you get some extra protection vs shooting. The 4+ save in cc is the killer here, though. You can trade the champ for that for example.
The miners should really swap the charges for a steamdrill for the champ, as the fact is they are one of the few dwarf units that will usually be charging if they come out of the tunnels. (standard scenario without anvil: miners come in, opponents turn/shuffle/run, miners charge...). Also a worthwile upgrade would be to give engineer for the bt too as it a) makes it better to hit things, as there are times when you don't want to keep the master engineer there and b) gives it chance to hold table quarters if the master engineer is attached to it.

Regarding the runesmith situation, I'll say it's better to probably experience first hand what opposing magic can do so you can weight in your mind if you need scrolls (or equivalents) and extra dispel dice. Most experienced players will not leave for battle without some magic defense, though.
(btw. rune of balance is generally better vs medium magic and with multiple runesmiths, and multiple spellbreakers are better vs heavy magic)

Chaoslord wrote:The 2k list(s) look pretty good to me, and I like the 2250 list better now,
[...]

Good to hear!

Chaoslord wrote:
[...]
Here's some additional comments for the latter 2250 list, though.
If I'd run a bsb with plethora of banner runes, I generally try to squeeze in rune of guarding so he's less likely to be killed outright. All dwarf shooting units should generally get shields as with small investment you get some extra protection vs shooting. The 4+ save in cc is the killer here, though. You can trade the champ for that for example.
[...]

Good idea on them Thunderers, consider it done!

Chaoslord wrote:
[...]
The miners should really swap the charges for a steamdrill for the champ, as the fact is they are one of the few dwarf units that will usually be charging if they come out of the tunnels. (standard scenario without anvil: miners come in, opponents turn/shuffle/run, miners charge...).
[...]

Noted, and will be play-tested. (I made two versions of my Miner Kaptain, one with and one without the drill to have the option available without any hassle! )

Chaoslord wrote:
[...]
Also a worthwile upgrade would be to give engineer for the bt too as it a) makes it better to hit things, as there are times when you don't want to keep the master engineer there and b) gives it chance to hold table quarters if the master engineer is attached to it.
[...]

Master Engineer is BS5, and the Engineer is "only" BS4. The D3 -> D6 wound bonus is negligable on the cannon 80% of the times I will shoot it, so with that in mind I hink that he is best used to make my BT hit home another 16.6% of the times... Or is that reasoning illogcal? As I said, I am very much a noob on the "new edition", so I might prioritice badly...

Chaoslord wrote:
[...]
Regarding the runesmith situation, I'll say it's better to probably experience first hand what opposing magic can do so you can weight in your mind if you need scrolls (or equivalents) and extra dispel dice. Most experienced players will not leave for battle without some magic defense, though.
[...]

I played my Cult of Slaanesh the other day in a local tournament and encountered a VampC player. Necrarch with the +6" spell range bloodline and then did that nova spell. (Originally 12" nuke, turned into a 18" nuke from hell. )

Needless to say, I got creamed pretty much(!).

Chaoslord wrote:
[...]
(btw. rune of balance is generally better vs medium magic and with multiple runesmiths, and multiple spellbreakers are better vs heavy magic)
[...]

Understood. Will look into the matter,have already put a Runesmith on the painting table. (Old OOP Anvil-guard, will look awesome as a "lowly" Runesmith. Not too busy and not too lame, his pose reflects his statue and place in the army IMO. )

However, what to do to get room for him? Drop all 20-units to 15? Or simply get rid of my Gyro?




Thanks once again for your outstanding analysis and comentary on the subject!

Regarding the master engineer and the cannon, the d3 -> d6 is actually quite a big effect. There are lots of targets which you want to kill asap and the improved cannon will make that more likely. I'll give you some examples:
1)Opposing warmachines, especially those empire great cannons. Apart from miners and copter (which usually has to expose itself in order to charge a warmachine), you don't have too many answers to these guys early on. One accurate cannon shot will solve that problem, and it's better to kill the thing with 3+ than on a 5+.
2)Big guys. Normally these guys (ogres, minotaurs, etc) have around 3 wounds and it's great to kill them more reliably than leave them standing with a wound or 2. Again, here the 3+ vs 5+ will make a difference.
3)Heroes. Sometimes opposing heroes hang on their own (wood elf alter heroes being a prime example of this), and cannonsniping is a good way to get rid of them. Especially vs lord level heros, killing them on 3+ instead of 5+ is a big difference (altough these guys may or may not have ward saves).
4)The really big guys such as dragons, greater daemons, steam tanks etc. Getting half the points more easily or even slaying these things outright is quite a big effect and it's bound to make your opponent sweat. It can also give you some more breathing room, as opponents have to decide if they'll risk their big monsters or keep them out of trouble (and generally out of your back too).

This all doesn't mean that you can't put the master on the bolter if there isn't any suitable targets for the improved cannon or the situation demands it such as multiple chariots around.

Also, trimming some basic/elite dwarves from the back ranks is probably allright if you need the runesmith. It's quite a hard decision really, altough I'd definetly like to keep the copter in the list as it adds some maneuverability (as you don't have anvil for that).

Remind me why a bolter is better agains chariots than a cannon? S6/7 vs S10? :S

Sikil wrote:Remind me why a bolter is better agains chariots than a cannon? S6/7 vs S10? :S

Chariots get auto-destroyed if they are wounded by str7+ hit (barring possible ward saves). The dwarf bolters have the valuable option to get str7 via the rune of penetration, which makes them prime chariot busters with bs4/bs5 and no chance for misfire (and the s10 vs s7 makes no difference here). It has to be said that the dwarf cannons with rune of forging are almost equally good at this role if you are good at judging distances.

they are both good options for chariot busting but a cannon
is better for killing troops