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Are powerfists overrated?

I see that a lot of answers to tough units are: “yeah, but what about powerfists?” It’s as if the powerfist nullifies every unit or tactic out there.

But let’s examine the powerfist. Is it the universal cure-all that everyone says it is?

First off, who carries them, how many are there, and what size are the units that have them? Powerfists for the most part are carried by Aspiring Champions and Space Marine Sergeants. If the army is a shooting army, they have around 2-3 of them. If the army is assault based, you will see around 3-5. The units that carry them normally will be around 6-10 models, but most will be 8+. Terminators carry them also, but in small squads of 5.

Long gone are the glory days of the tooled up Aspiring Champion with Demonic Mutation and Spiky Bits, so now most of the time they are getting 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, that means that they average 1.5 hits a round, and wounding most things 1.25 times a round (and against things with an Inv. save it will do much worse). So on average you are dropping one MEQ a round, doing one wound to a TMC etc. Is it me, or does that not seem that great? So, if you are in a fight with a Hive Tyrant, Marines, or just about anything that Powerfist will certainly help, but it still falls short. Against nasty things like C’tan and Wraithlords it will do .75 wounds a round.

So overall it will wound a lot of things that your S4 troops will have trouble with, but it is far short of a universal panacea.

Also there are a lot of tactics to either minimize its attacks, or to remove them. If the squad with a powerfist is spread out, you can charge the squad so that the powerfist is not engaged. Also you charge a squad with a powerfist, you will do a lot of casualties so that afterwards your opponent is not in b-t-b, or you can remove your casualties so that the powerfist is no longer engaged. Another option is to charge the powerfist with something like an HQ that has a lot of attacks so that you will kill the powerfist when you kill all of the models within 2".

So what say you, is the powerfist overrated? Are you afraid of powerfists?

I still rate them. Not just for the killing power but for the effect they have on my opponents choices. I'd be happy to try my luck charging a tactical squad with an IC, but if the squad has a PF, not so much. The PF adds utility to a unit that might otherwise struggle against foes it may not even be able to wound without the fist. As you say, not a universal Panacea but picture two space marine lists, one with fists and one without. I think thats a considerable difference and worth the points.

I like to mix power fists and power swords with my marines, but many players only take fists, I can see why.

15pts for S8 armour ignoring attacks, must be nasty. What is nastier is that most power fists are on something that has more than one attack. The standard vet sgt gets 4 on a charge, a nob gets 5.

The only targets that laught at powerfists are hard hitting unarmoured light infantry, orks, kroot and 'naked' genestealers come to mind, they die almost as often to regular attacks.
Either that or fast skimmers that you cannot hit even if you catch them.

MrJones wrote:I still rate them. Not just for the killing power but for the effect they have on my opponents choices. I'd be happy to try my luck charging a tactical squad with an IC, but if the squad has a PF, not so much. The PF adds utility to a unit that might otherwise struggle against foes it may not even be able to wound without the fist. As you say, not a universal Panacea but picture two space marine lists, one with fists and one without. I think thats a considerable difference and worth the points.

Agreed the cold war style deterrence factor with fists is not to be underestimated.

It has more to do with the fact that for 5 more points than a powerweapon you get antitank/monstrous creature abilities. You have to buy Termi honors for 15 points for access to the armory so you overall spend 25 points on a power weapon which does not raise the units cc power against infantry very much against most units and 30 for a fist. It's good strategy to take the fist and gain all of the benefits of the power weapon plus the ability to kill most tough tarpits like wraithlords and walkers.

Are they overrated? Yes. Are they still essential and great at 15pts? Yep.

Even at 25pts, if you have a squad character whose upgrade you pay points for, you should buy him the fist if it makes him S8.

Why?
-Dreadnoughts and monsters do not charge you with impunity
-You can kill vehicles that get close
-Instakilling characters.
-Still better than a power weapon if opponent is I4 or higher.

I would say that more and more armies these days can simply forgo any assault squad upgrades at all and save the points, but it's still essential for a lot of armies.

I am not saying that it is not worth the points.

I am not saying that strength 8 is bad.

Are they better than powerweapons? Of course.

What I am trying to say is that it will not solve all of your problems, and the counter to everything is not a powerfist.


This idea came up because of the Nurgle biker thread. There they were saying how they die so easy to powerfists. But everything dies to powerfists, and they kill only one bike a round.

Well it really depends on how you use them. I had a powerfist kill a woflord before. And as I play dark angels he could have been a real pain in the ass had I not been able to one off him. Aside from that since we get veteran Sergeants mandatory and then Free nades of both type so essentially we get 30 points free. So if we take a fist its practically free. But since we all get krak nades we don't really need the extra anti armour but it is quite nice when you get charged by something nasty like Dread, or TMC.

It of course depends on a ton of different factors. I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be taken as automatically as they are, but they're definitely very useful fairly often.

Let's first take the Veteran Sergeant in an Assault Squad for example- a 50 point model, i.e. 2.5 more Assault Marines. Assume the Assault Squad is the one charging. Power Fist Sergeant has 4 Attacks. 2.5 more Assault Marines here would have 7.5 more attacks. 2 hits vs. 3.75 hits against MEQ's. 1.67 wounds compared to 1.85 wounds against MEQ's. 1.67 dead Marines caused by the Power Fist, compared to .557 dead marines caused by the same points spent on extra Assault Marines.

Against WS4, Toughness 3, Sv 5+:
Power Fist Veteran: 4 Attacks = 2 hits = 1.67 wounds = 1.67 casualties
2.5 Assault Marines: 7.5 Attacks = 3.75 hits = 2.5 wounds = 1.67 casualties.

Power Fists can obviously wound a lot of things regular marines can't. Of course, that's obviously not going to be the debate. The debate is more likely going to be between a Veteran Sergeant with a Power Fist and an extra special weapon.

IMO, the most significant reason to take them is that most units you get into close combat with have I > 4 anyway.

Blackmoor wrote:If the army is assault based, you will see around 3-5.

Um...

I run a 1500 point Space Wolf list that I consider to be relatively balanced between shooting and assault. In said list, I have a total of 8 Power Fists. Three on a Terminator squad, three on a Blood Claws squad, one each on two Grey Hunter squad. Even if you ignore the 'extra' fists from it being a Space Wolf list (e.g., drop it down to one per non-Terminator squad), I'd still have 6 fists...

as an ork player I can tell you that power klaws are NESSESSARY for my army. as for marines though? I could go either way. power swords may sometimes be as good, but what is that squad going to do against a dread or a tank?

right now I can take a squad of trukk boyz and tear down a tank.. klaws make up a good chunk of my AT power.

NaZ

Your forgetting about instant death on anything tough 4 or lower... its a big boost to their prowess. So are they the best thing since adult diapers? No, but they are worth it.

Power Fists are over-rated. I only have them on my Terminators because I use the squad as both Loyalist (using the Blood Angels rules) or Renegade (using the Chaos Marine rules). Mind you, it used to be entertaining to see people expect to take a few of them out before they struck with the Power Fists only to get thrashed first when my Terminators didn't use the Power Fist special close combat attack.

I wouldn't take one on anything I didn't have to though. No point in wasting the points!

Blackmoor wrote:I am not saying that it is not worth the points.

I am not saying that strength 8 is bad.

Are they better than powerweapons? Of course.

What I am trying to say is that it will not solve all of your problems, and the counter to everything is not a powerfist.


This idea came up because of the Nurgle biker thread. There they were saying how they die so easy to powerfists. But everything dies to powerfists, and they kill only one bike a round.

I think you are forgetting that a lot of different close combat attacks 'suck' why? because you need to hit first..then you need to wound....then the target has his power/inv save... most times you dont got a lot of attacks left in the end. We all know this but sumtimes Im still surprised "what!!! only one wound!!!!!"

the powerfist only needs to hit...but after that its easy to wound. look at you nurgel bikers... maybe you only kill one bike a turn..but the bikes only got a few attacks in return. the ' powerfist wound' a turn makes sure you win the close combat and then its possible to run them over because these expensive bikes will get outnumbered easely. If you didnt got the powerfist you'll be fighting against them for the remaining turns..

You dont need 5 powerfists in your army..(exept: terminators and orks)..just one in your assault squad..and one or two in sum other tactical squad....

Blackmoor wrote:Also there are a lot of tactics to either minimize its attacks, or to remove them. If the squad with a powerfist is spread out, you can charge the squad so that the powerfist is not engaged. Also you charge a squad with a powerfist, you will do a lot of casualties so that afterwards your opponent is not in b-t-b, or you can remove your casualties so that the powerfist is no longer engaged. Another option is to charge the powerfist with something like an HQ that has a lot of attacks so that you will kill the powerfist when you kill all of the models within 2".

So what say you, is the powerfist overrated? Are you afraid of powerfists?

I think they're worth their points, and I also think that every Space Marine list needs one or two to add a tactical dimension. I would definately take them in infiltrating vet or command and assault squads. The one in the assault squad goes good with a Chaplain.

I wouldn't take one in every squad tho. You can take Power Fist + Bolt Pistol or you can have three guys with bolters. I'd rather take the bolters in most cases.

Am I afraid of them? Not really, just because like I said they are a solid points investment. If they had a whole army of power fists I would be pleased, as not all of those fists are going to see close combat. I wouldn't hesitate to charge power fists but I would make sure I was going to win anyway.

Nice thing about power fists is that if your squad gets down to 1-3 guys from it's inital 6 - 10 the ld9 guy can still do something effective. Disadvantage is maybe a power weapon could get its licks in at I4 before going down when squads get small. Presumably this would be countered by earlier rounds of combat where the power fists put the hurt on. And the S8 is still good against Ork etc everyone knows if you need a 2+ to wound that's a guarantee.

In my marine army I had one vet w/ power weapon, one w/ power fist (infiltrating) and two squads with no vets.

I say powerfists are not overrated, just because I don't think people really think they're that great, like you said especially with no mutation, spiky bits etc. Sometimes I think plasma is overrated (stand and shoot, OK but if you're deep striking you don't like melta guns?) but powerfists are just powerfists.

They're overrated.

....unless your Marines are locked in combat with a dreadnaught.

Personally, I like having a couple in my marine army. Then again, I also look for excuses to use Thunder Hammers (I love them for some reason. I plan to have quite a few in my orky army.

I know they aren't all powerful, but I've regretted not having them more often than regretted having them.

Deadshane1 wrote:They're overrated.

....unless your Marines are locked in combat with a dreadnaught.

and unless your fighting a MC..
and unless you can hit a tank..
and unless you fight against high toughness models..nurgle, necron, orks, bikers, obliterators etc
and unless your fighting higher Initiative enemies like eldar,dark eldar, slaanesh, tyranids... etc.

do I need to go on...?

why would you ever pick a power weapon? If you need your Initiative 4 in a fight because there is a risk of being killed to the last champion in one turn...you've done sumthing wrong in the first place..the power weapon is not going to save you then....

(iam not talking about IC or other close combat groups..iam talking about the champions/serguants in a squad. for example: A chaos terminator group with I5 and power weapons is a very good unit..)

I personally don't think power fists are overrated. I used to take them in my old CSM army simply because it turned a CSM squad that would not normally be a threat to certain things around them to a squad that was pretty much a threat to anything either in shooting or CC. They might not have been a BIG threat but neither did my opponent have an easy way to tie them up either. Also to consider is that sometimes you get lucky and might get that penetrating hit on a vehicle or 2-3 wounds on a TMC which you couldn't do without the fist, no matter how lucky your dice are.

I'm going with Not over-rated.

Remember now, you're looking at "1.5" or so "hits" or wounds with a fist, but that goes both ways, some times you get 1, sometimes it's 2.

In the case of talking about bikers, they come in small ass squads, so killing 1 or 2 is huge. Against MC's, with only 4 or 5 wounds, you're looking at a good chance of taking them below scoring or the fact that you'll kill one at the end of your next turn.

In terms of "normal targets", the Power Fist will likely kill as many as your squad does, or sometimes more.

In terms of "what about power fists?" when talking about taking certain units, I do believe that for certain choices, like Nurgle Bikers, they become a significant deterrant. Especially when Ork Nobz have 3 Base attacks and (for now) get +1 for having 2CCW's.

Terminizzle wrote:Let's first take the Veteran Sergeant in an Assault Squad for example- a 50 point model, i.e. 2.5 more Assault Marines. Assume the Assault Squad is the one charging. Power Fist Sergeant has 4 Attacks. 2.5 more Assault Marines here would have 7.5 more attacks. 2 hits vs. 3.75 hits against MEQ's. 1.67 wounds compared to 1.85 wounds against MEQ's. 1.67 dead Marines caused by the Power Fist, compared to .557 dead marines caused by the same points spent on extra Assault Marines.

I was going to do a similar run of mathhammer. The basic breakdown is that for only a few more points, you get a huge bump in assault power, even against "normal" troops. Sure the power fister may only kill 1.5 guys a turn, but the non power fisters are only killing .5 guys a turn. 3 times the effectiveness for significantly less than 3 times the points...sign me the heck up.

Now of course there will be times where you will wish you had something else, but that's the nature of the game. In general though, if your squad is going to end up in hand to hand, or you are worried that it might end up in hand to hand, the fist is a good investment to assure that once there, you will dish out some pain.

There's little in 40k that is so universally useful. The powerfist is an excellent weapon vs. any opponent. That's it's strength.

I really feel the Str vs T point. Running St3 Sisters, I REALLY wish I could get power fists. (Yea, I can get Eviscerators, but they are really salty.) St3 has a miserable time wounding most anything that wants to fight you in melee, so even power weapons are fairly pointless. Rolling a 3 or 4 to hit, then a 5 or 6 to wound really makes those power weapon points seem poorly spent.
Compared to how effective the almost auto wounding on an Eviscerator is when in melee, even without the being a one handed weapon, I would rock one in almost every unit if I didn't have to pay 40 points for the priviledge (practically 4 girl's worth). Though the pts for a Vet Sister are pretty much mandatory, so perhaps saying 2+ girl's worth is more accurate.

Really, I think powerfists are every bit as useful as people think, though I think they sometimes forget merely having one isn't enough; they actually need to get into combat.

Wehrkind wrote:I would rock one in almost every unit if I didn't have to pay 40 points for the priviledge (practically 4 girl's worth).

When C: SM is finally updated I think it's going to be a rare powerfist that isn't at least a 40 points upgrade, just like it used to be and like Chaos, Dangels, Blangels, Orks, etc, etc have it now.

Really, things are going to make a lot more sense when 80% of all armies are brought into line with the rest of us

- Salvage

Hmm, let me think. Power Fists hit at I1. A variety of methods exist for players to single out the Power Fist toting model with shooting and assaults. They cost lots, and they're ugly. Melta-bombs are better against Dreadnoughts, squads should have krak grenades, and moving into close combat with Monstrous Creatures is a waste of Marines.

The only problem with them is the misperception of their worth by the consensus. I would say that I bank on that in games, but my gaming group tends to catch onto these things pretty quickly.

To all those who claim that a main advantage of power fists id fending off MC, walkers: What!?

When is the last time an MC/walker got in close combat with your marines army? Lets go through the list of MCs/walkers that even want to be in close combat shall we?

Deadnoughts: hmmm. Ass cannon, or a couple cc attacks. Hellfire dreads won't even be advancing. Also, even if it wanted to be in cc, when has a dread made it even halfway across the board. They're so flimsy. The exception to this is podding ven dreads.

Every single nid MC is shooty. Maybe the odd flyrant will be looking for cc, but in general, if you see scytals on mcs, you should be happy.

Wraithlords, even with wraithswords, are gakky in cc and would much rather be firing their two BS4 heavy weapons safe inside cover/psyker range.

The Avatar is also an exception, but he's slow moving.

Deamon Princes are an exception. They're probably the biggest threat because they're fast. However, If you can get even one turn of shooty off on him he's screwed 'cause he's so squishy. Also, regular dudes actually do threaten him as he's only T5 3+ save.

Defilers are a joke.


Am I forgetting anything? Anyway, as long as there at least a couple of fists in the army (which I strongly advocate on assault squads), then basic squads dont' need to "fend off" big things. Also, regarding tanks, would you rather shoot your 1 S9 shot and two S7 shots, or charge and hit on 6s?
I'm not saying power fists aren't an essential part of a marine army, I'm just saying that the fending off MCs/walkers aspect is an illusion.

-Leo037

You are forgetting Penitent Engines. Oh wait, they die the first shooting phase of the first turn. Never mind *crys in the corner*

The advantages of the big PF is really that it is so flexible. It kills more MEQs than it's points in marines. It kills vehicles and dreads better than melta bombs (you only get one attack with melta bombs.) It keeps MCs and Dreads etc from tarpitting you or simply waiting for you to break in melee to squish you all at once.

Now, I am not advocating it go on every squad that can take it, and I am only talking about Marines of various naughty levels here, not so much IG. But I think it is one of those peices of wargear that is really useful in a lot of units that want to get a little upclose and personal, like Tac Marines/Sisters who want to get close enough for short range hurt, but might not be able to deal with getting tied up by high toughness thing. And of course on assault squads it is terribly handy.

Really, though, is it THAT ugly?

Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Flyrants, and podding Dreads are all big things which will regularly get into assault with you (or vice versa), and against which you're basically helpless without a fist. Fast moving ICs (space marine, chaos, or Eldar) with jump packs or bikes are similar threats, against which you only need to get a single powerfist wound past their invulnerable save to end their threat and save whatever units they would have tied up or killed.

You don't want to break the bank on them, and you certainly don't need them everywhere, but considering how cheap they are for what they do, they're a genuine no-brainer. Any unit which you intend to have act as an assault or counter assault unit is better off with a fist than a power weapon in easily 90% of the situations you will encounter. For a 5pt or 10pt price difference, they're a steal.

They regularly get into assault with me? My experience is that these big targets get blasted before they get into assault. Despite this I persist in taking Dreadnoughts (mainly so they will get shot at, but I digress...).

When they do, having a Power Weapon is a much more effective defense, particularly when they're hitting at I1 because their Champion or Sergeant or whatnot is attacking with a Power Fist! As for bypassing invulnerable saves...they don't, invulnerable saves are what you wear because sometimes Power Fists actually survive to cause damage!

I guess they're a no-brainer for some people. But then some people don't think Power Fists are over-rated.

I've taken Vet Serges with Powerfists in every squad since 2nd and will continue to do so until I am no longer allowed to. Hell, even my Dev Serges have em! It's a Chapter/Fluff thing for me, though I still love their effect as well.