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Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 Argive wrote:
You guys are not really answering the question that is being asked.

"diversity good" is not an answer on how you achieve and measure it within a product range.. Which is what's being asked. How do you achieve it in order to make everyone happy.

Because you asked a stupid question. You probably know you asked a stupid question. You probably asked it because you know how difficult it is to answer.

I don't know what "optimal representation" is. I do know it's not 100% white men.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 insaniak wrote:
You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.

But, ultimately, I don't think that's what the vast majority of people who feel unrepresented are asking for. They just want to feel included in a way that isn't a token effort.



How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in kr
Been Around the Block




JWBS wrote:
I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.


What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 09:30:50


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Argive wrote:

How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?

How do you determine whether or not a store has good customer service?
How do you determine whether or not you like a particular food?
How do you determine whether or not your neighbour is a nice person?

Not everything can be quantified. A lot of the time, it's entirely subjective, and the best you can do is the take a stab at it, take on the feedback that results from it, and determine from that whether or not you need to do better.

That's the case here. There is no magical, defined point at which an 'Optimum Diversity' achievement is unlocked and a big shiny badge pinned to your corporate existence. It's up to companies making product to determine based on customer reaction to their range whether or not their efforts so far have been sufficient, and what to do about that.

 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






I dunno, personally I feel representation requires context. For example, if its a historical wargame with a set time period, I would assume historical accuracy takes precedence over racial representation, so like there would be no Asian soldiers during the War of the Roses. Frankly, representation matters less to me than a well-crafted setting and product, since most of the time people who are overly concerned about representation focus on it almost exclusively to the detriment of everything else. I know growing up as a kid that I was happy with heroes like Batman, Spider-Man and Static Shock even though I'm neither white or black.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Argive wrote:
You guys are not really answering the question that is being asked.

"diversity good" is not an answer on how you achieve and measure it within a product range.. Which is what's being asked. How do you achieve it in order to make everyone happy.


As someone imagine your entire range of models don't include a single person that represents you. There are no different colors, just grey. There is no one you can identify with even though said faction is supposedly having both men and women, but there are no men and there are no women. There are only children, under the age of 4, and its marketed towards you, and 30 year old, for a faction that is supposed to be in their 30s. Its a juxtaposition that does not make sense within universe or out of universe.

Stormcasts are everyone, they can be anyone, thats what is so inspiring about the STormcasts, anyone can be one, all they have to be is a hero. And that can be anyone, as loosely defined as the writers deem it to be. You achieve it by representing someone, by showing who they are, an idealized person. When GW makes a faction they are make eblematic people that we want to be. We want to be lost in the power fantasy of playing these factions, can we... The audience identify with some aspect of the faction. So if no factions you like doesn't represent you at all, or your values then you have no attraction. Its both for marketing and also a connection between player and product.

Players get value out of identity, and the product gets value from support of the player


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.

But, ultimately, I don't think that's what the vast majority of people who feel unrepresented are asking for. They just want to feel included in a way that isn't a token effort.



How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?


You can't measure it, its like trying to measure how much happiness you generate. There is no magic number by which it can be quantified. and that is not what people are asking for, they are asking "can you please represent me?" Which is not that hard especially from one of larger hobbying companies in the world. This hobby especially has a ton of gate keeping issues and this is one of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 04:57:18


 
   
Made in us
Skink Chief with Poisoned Javelins




Xalapa, Veracruz

 insaniak wrote:
You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.



I'm pretty sure the numbere is "42".
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Grimskul wrote:
I dunno, personally I feel representation requires context. For example, if its a historical wargame with a set time period, I would assume historical accuracy takes precedence over racial representation, so like there would be no Asian soldiers during the War of the Roses. Frankly, representation matters less to me than a well-crafted setting and product, since most of the time people who are overly concerned about representation focus on it almost exclusively to the detriment of everything else. I know growing up as a kid that I was happy with heroes like Batman, Spider-Man and Static Shock even though I'm neither white or black.


We aren't talking about that, please do not change the subject, this is an AOS discussion, and people are discussing AOS.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





caladancid wrote:
JWBS wrote:
I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.


Wow. This is one of the most reductive takes on gender, sexuality, and race I’ve seen in a long time. What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?

Sure, Asians and Hispanics too. Why not?
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

JWBS wrote:
caladancid wrote:
JWBS wrote:
I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.


Wow. This is one of the most reductive takes on gender, sexuality, and race I’ve seen in a long time. What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?

Sure, Asians and Hispanics too. Why not?

Honestly that'd be cool, Lets throw some Native American, Maori, and Pacific Islanders too, lets get Star Trekky in here. Stormcasts can literally be anyone, Even chaos warriors can be redeemed. Hell they are even called the Redeemed, so I am excited to see the next chapter for the Stormcasts, what the chamber is, what they do etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 05:09:12


 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




USA

 Asherian Command wrote:
JWBS wrote:
caladancid wrote:
JWBS wrote:
I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.


Wow. This is one of the most reductive takes on gender, sexuality, and race I’ve seen in a long time. What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?

Sure, Asians and Hispanics too. Why not?

Honestly that'd be cool, Lets throw some Native American, Maori, and Pacific Islanders too, lets get Star Trekky in here. Stormcasts can literally be anyone, Even chaos warriors can be redeemed. Hell they are even called the Redeemed, so I am excited to see the next chapter for the Stormcasts, what the chamber is, what they do etc.


That would be pretty awesome to see. It would be pretty cool for just about anyone to take a look at Warhammer and find at least a few miniatures that they feel represent who they are. At the end of the day, the hobby is pretty awesome, and everyone should be able to feel included and represented in it.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Richmond, VA

 posermcbogus wrote:
Are you feeling tired? Frustrated? Worn down?

Sick of seeing sexless adult men get angry at the prospect of an equal ratio of tiny plastic women in a few box sets of little plastic toys for a game they *maybe* play?

Try the ignore button today!

The ignore button significantly reduces unwanted noise, vitriol, and dog whistling, by getting straight to the root of the cause, blocking out the grown-ass adults who have come to believe that their hobby is threatened by tiny toys having an entire box more gender equality before, and then being outraged when people say that maybe it's silly to be upset about that.

The ignore button. For all your internet pissbaby needs.

(side effects may include reduced blood pressure, violent diarrhea, heart attacks and death, being surrounded by white knights, an ability to actually enjoy threads in News and Rumors, fully painted armies in weeks and a sudden growth in penis size)


Amen. And don't bother clicking the "show" button once you ignore them. It's never worth it. Ever.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I don't play AoS, but the regulars that post on dakka seem to rate AoS these days. Does it really need a version 3? Are there lots of faults to be fixed?


Gw doesn't release editions because it's Needed. They release because time's up and it sells.

Due to leadtimes aos2 was bareiy out when work on aos3 started...
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





chaos0xomega wrote:
What else do you call someone who discriminates against someone or the inclusion of someone on the basis of sex or gender, specifically against women? Thats literally the definition of sexism and misogyny.


Your basing your argument on the idea that the discrimination is based on sex, but since much of this toy soldier hobby is artistic and since (for the most part) men and women look different, the basis can just as equally be aesthetics rather than sex.

Maybe you want your soldiers to all look big and muscly because that's generally what makes a better fighter, and that naturally favours the male form.

It's always felt more natural that Eldar/Elves were a mixed gender force, because they're much more androgynous to begin with and the males are more stereotypically feminine, so having men and women fighting alongside each other looks right. But when there's significant sexual dimorphism, like, ya know, humans, there's an aesthetic difference and some people are going to prefer the big beefy aesthetic. I don't see how that's sexist any more than it is sizeist to point out that we don't let 70kg male boxers into the ring against 100kg male boxers. That dimorphism is what can make it feel forced when you try and mix male and female models.

I don't think it's sexism to point out that men and women aren't the same. Though these days, maybe some people don't agree with that appraisal.

But, it's fantasy, so if you want mixed male and female melee fighters, I don't see anything wrong with that. I also don't see anything wrong with wanting an only male army. Or an only female army for that matter.

These choices need not be sexist, they can be purely aesthetic.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
 posermcbogus wrote:
Are you feeling tired? Frustrated? Worn down?

Sick of seeing sexless adult men get angry at the prospect of an equal ratio of tiny plastic women in a few box sets of little plastic toys for a game they *maybe* play?

Try the ignore button today!

The ignore button significantly reduces unwanted noise, vitriol, and dog whistling, by getting straight to the root of the cause, blocking out the grown-ass adults who have come to believe that their hobby is threatened by tiny toys having an entire box more gender equality before, and then being outraged when people say that maybe it's silly to be upset about that.

The ignore button. For all your internet pissbaby needs.

(side effects may include reduced blood pressure, violent diarrhea, heart attacks and death, being surrounded by white knights, an ability to actually enjoy threads in News and Rumors, fully painted armies in weeks and a sudden growth in penis size)


Amen. And don't bother clicking the "show" button once you ignore them. It's never worth it. Ever.
The problem with the ignore button is you still end up seeing it when other people quote it. Or maybe you don't always sign in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 05:26:30


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





This thread is getting hilarious now.

The answer is...never, you will never satisfy the current woke crowd, ever....no matter what you do.

Create a unit of "warriors".
You make 1/2 of them female, yay.
"Hey, you made the boobs too big, therefore objectifying women!"
Damnit, back to the design...reduce boobs.
"It looks like it's all men now, and what about ethnicity? Why aren't you representing xyz?"
Back to design, creates asian, black etc "looking" models within the unit....
"What the hell, talk about stereotyping, do you really think that's what we look like?"
Grrrr
Right......Bob, scrap all the heads....everyone's in a helmet!!

"What about gay, transgender...etc?"
Oh, feth of Kevin!!

And so on, and so on.

We've had female models in warhammer for decades, but only recently is it becoming such an issue. If you're going to spend your time worrying what a toy soldier looks like, life's going to be pretty damn miserable for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 05:31:04


 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 BertBert wrote:


Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation.


Here's weird idea. If you get angry at being accused X then don't act like X.

If someone looks like a dog and barks like a dog...

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





tneva82 wrote:
Here's weird idea. If you get angry at being accused X then don't act like X.
So because other people are unwilling to read and consider an argument before immediately jumping to an accusation, people should stop making those arguments?

I think the better advice is ignore the accusations of small minded individuals.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I actually really like the new stormcast, whoever wrote the lore in here about anyone being able to become a hero.... That is actually brilliant lore and really draws me to the stormcast. I will have to read up on them a bit more I think.

Saying that I'm a slave to darkness player so I will happily murder them all horribly
   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







One of the many side-paths in this thread inspired me to go see how many female dwarves GW has put out in its history. Turns out the number might be as low as 1: Helgar Longplaits. Not a great miniature by any means, between the nearly legless proportions that were the studio standard dwarf back in the day, the comical helmet and her only other visible armor being a goofy metal bra. Her illustration is even worse.

JWBS wrote:
One of the main problems when shifting scale is that new techniques must often be learned, this applies to moving up as well as down, which is one of the various reasons cited for the failure of =][= (544mm).


Your inadvertent typo brought a smile to my face, as it made me imagine trying to put together a half-a-meter tall pewter space marine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 06:49:38


Dig me a grave where I can nurture a hatred most sublime
For the fools who made this mess and think it not a crime 
   
Made in lt
Longtime Dakkanaut






I was a bit annoyed by the potential thing that the new Stormcast kit would force to build female miniatures/increase the price exponentially as one will be left with a crap ton of useless plastic should it be full double kit. But then I thought to myself that I will never even pick that box or, god forbid, play AoS, so just stopped caring there
And, as I've said 67 pages go, it was truly naive to expect anything from HH. "Hope is the first step..."

   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







Forge World has been pretty quiet as of late, hasnt it?

Dig me a grave where I can nurture a hatred most sublime
For the fools who made this mess and think it not a crime 
   
Made in us
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion





Today was great! I wasn't able to watch live, but wow. Compared with all the amazing models that were shown off for AoS on Monday, today was equally as good.

The new chamber of Stormcast Eternals are going to be an auto-buy for me. Looks to me like these Fimir are coming in some way to the game, that's nice. Another destruction faction is always positive!

The Annihilators look I N C R E D I B L E. Those shields and hammers are great, defiantly loving the Vindicators. But the star for me was Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear! This is what I'd like to continue to see, everything about her from the pose, basing and weapon options just scream Celestial Justice to me. The Paintjob was amazing, I love that take on the gold of Stormcast, defiantly an improvement.

I'm excited for 3.0 and I was really happy to hear about the changes to command points, detachments and the addition of better rules for campaigns.

In my eyes, the winner of this event was definitely AoS followed by the specialist games. Hell, the new Stormcast + the new faction alone have signaled 40Ks deathknell for me. Probably will bite the bullet on selling my Chaos Marines and moving totally over to AoS.

Between the Vampires, Kragnos and the new Stormcast + New Faction, well, because I will have no pity, no mercy, and no remorse upon my poor wallet.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 bullyboy wrote:
This thread is getting hilarious now.

The answer is...never, you will never satisfy the current woke crowd, ever....no matter what you do.

Create a unit of "warriors".
You make 1/2 of them female, yay.
"Hey, you made the boobs too big, therefore objectifying women!"
Damnit, back to the design...reduce boobs.
"It looks like it's all men now, and what about ethnicity? Why aren't you representing xyz?"
Back to design, creates asian, black etc "looking" models within the unit....
"What the hell, talk about stereotyping, do you really think that's what we look like?"
G
And so on, and so on.


Except they just did design a couple of female and black stormcast and no one has said anything to this effect?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Agamemnon2 wrote:
It felt weird to announce a whole new edition by showing off only 3 models somehow.


I saw 6 models.
   
Made in fi
Charging Wild Rider





 Agamemnon2 wrote:
One of the many side-paths in this thread inspired me to go see how many female dwarves GW has put out in its history. Turns out the number might be as low as 1: Helgar Longplaits. Not a great miniature by any means, between the nearly legless proportions that were the studio standard dwarf back in the day, the comical helmet and her only other visible armor being a goofy metal bra. Her illustration is even worse.
The "metal bra" is just a pretty accurate depiction of the goofy stuff sometimes worn during Wagnerian operas by either the valkyries or typically Brünnhilde, from "the opera ain't over until the fat lady sings" fame, and at times specifically used for comedic effect:
Spoiler:


Not saying it isn't a bit too comical (not to mention conical), but it kind of makes sense in the "opera Viking" Dwarf aesthetic - perfectly matches with the helmet and hair in fact.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Forge World has been pretty quiet as of late, hasnt it?


Rumor is that forgeworld had to drop everything it was doing because of the pandemic. And ever since they all come from the same production house it would be difficult to produce anything but main GW line, so forgeworld is basically defect as it is trying to produce for GW and so it has to remove items from its listings because they quite literally can't produce them.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





So next preview next week or week after that? One saturday this month without preview. Which one?

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

tneva82 wrote:
So next preview next week or week after that? One saturday this month without preview. Which one?


WE have no idea, be patient. I am guessing new model on monday, and possibly next week will be Kragnos related.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 07:21:27


 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Asherian Command wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
So next preview next week or week after that? One saturday this month without preview. Which one?


WE have no idea, be patient. I am guessing new model on monday, and possibly next week will be Kragnos related.


But more interesting topic than female models.

We know there's 2 of 3 saturdays this month with previews. For me thats way more interesting topic than female models.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oh my gosh is this really going to devolve into a talk on representation for plastic army guys ?

How wide spread are all differences of people throughout the whole world ? Why does that need to be a thing, in a game ? So should I not play and or complain about necrons for being genderless automation ? Where my representation GW ? It's a game, why should anyone care aside from visual tastes what color anyone is or gender or sexual orientation or any of that, it's a game, nothing more. There isn't equal representation IRL for anyone because there isn't an equal number of different people all over. Demanding that for a game is pure madness and really breaks people down to be nothing more than what they look like, where they are from or who they sleep with and what they call themselves and I'm sorry but people are more than those things, they always have been and that can't be represented in a game, with plastic people.

That said I don't care if they put in female stormcast or female guard or even female space marines, I'd run female space marines, I like women even if they drive me nuts sometimes or all the time. Just do it because it makes sense and don't do it to push an agenda. Don't drag other people down to push others up, lets just all go up together right ?

That said, has anyone heard if these IG upgrade spures will be sold individually ? Because I would love that. Thanks for your time.
   
 
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