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Vibro Cannons, eldar codex page 45.
"...draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line pases though suffers d6 hits."

It goes on to talk about how the number of cannons affects strength of the hits, then...

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by the vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armour penetration."


In a previous thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206716.page) we discussed the affects of firing vibro cannons into a squad of vehicles. The jury is still out on the exact effects. Now however I bring forth a new problem. What happens when the line from a vibro cannon shot hits another artillery unit (perhaps another vibro cannon squad)?

When working out normal shooting at artillery units, hits on the unit are randomized. 1d6 is rolled for each hit and on a 1-4 a crew member is hit and on a 5-6 one of the guns is hit. The guns all have an armor value of 10 and any damage destroys them.

A couple of possibilities based on different interpretations of the rules.

(1) What appeared to be the most popular interpretation of the vibro cannon rules in the previous thread was that “targets with an Armour Value” were any armor value models that the line crossed over. Using this interpretation, a vibro cannon firing into an artillery unit would immediately destroy any guns that were under the line (since they would suffer a glancing hit) and then do 1d6 hits directly to the crew. This would seem to break the squad shooting rules, the rules for firing at artillery, and allow the vibro cannons to seemingly damage the single unit more times than would be expected since it would do both the 1d6 hits and individual armor value hits.

(2a) Another possibility would be to take the rules for shooting at artillery units into consideration. If we do this then once we see that the vibro cannon line has passed though the artillery unit, we roll 1d6 to see what is hit. On a 1-4, 1d6 hits would be assigned to the crew. On a 5-6, a single glancing hit would be placed on a gun.

(2b) As a variation of 2a, its possible to consider the guns as a unit and thus, if a 5-6 is rolled when determining if crew or guns are hit, assign 1d6 hits to be distributed amongst them with none able to be assigned more than a single hit.

(3) The final possibility that I see is the interpretation that “targets” are any model that has been assigned one of the 1d6 hits. If this is the case, once it is seen that the line from the vibro cannon has passed though the artillery unit, 1d6 is rolled to determine the number of hits. Then a further d6 is rolled for each hit to determine if a crew member or a gun is hit. At this point, to wound rolls are made for crew members and any gun that is hit takes a single glancing hit and is destroyed. This would stay consistent with the initial unit rules, the armor value rules, and the rules for firing at artillery.

It would seem to me that option 3 would be the best supported by the rules. What do you think?

I'm wondering how you think the 3rd option is better supported than the other two.

Go with option 1.

It does mean that Vibrocannon are very good at counter battery fire. However that is fair. Mismatches can occur, and are supposed to occur with Eldar.

Furthermore unless the opponent has lined up his artillery very poorly your shot will cause damage to one gun and the crew, not every gun.

@Phoenix, are you planning on fielding vibro cannons now?

Darrian
(I have my 3 painted and ready)

Phoenix wrote:

(1) What appeared to be the most popular interpretation of the vibro cannon rules in the previous thread was that “targets with an Armour Value” were any armor value models that the line crossed over. Using this interpretation, a vibro cannon firing into an artillery unit would immediately destroy any guns that were under the line (since they would suffer a glancing hit) and then do 1d6 hits directly to the crew. This would seem to break the squad shooting rules, the rules for firing at artillery, and allow the vibro cannons to seemingly damage the single unit more times than would be expected since it would do both the 1d6 hits and individual armor value hits.

If you read the artillery rules you see that if the unit is hit with a blast or template weapon the models under the blast/template get hit rather than using the random roll, so there certainly is precedent for different weapons affecting artillery units differently.

I personally think choice #1 is the best way to play it IMHO.

The Vibro Cannon isn't a blast or template weapon.

It draws a line and the "unit" takes the hits.
It states that clearly.

Furthermore, the rules for the Artillery unit state that, after the # hits are determined (that is your d6 roll), you roll to see who takes the hit. On a 5-6, it is the artillery piece.

So, if the line goes over the artillery unit and you roll a "5" for wounds, you roll 5d6 to determine where the hits are allocated.
If, say, you roll 1,1,4,5,6 then the crew takes 3 wounds & the artillery piece is hit twice.


I don't understand how anything EXCEPT #3 can seem to be a better option, based on RAW.

Number 1 violates the rules for shooting at a unit and 2a doesn't allocate the wounds to the whole squad - nor does 2b.

I'd love to have someone explain it to me.

Eric

Darrian13 wrote:@Phoenix, are you planning on fielding vibro cannons now?

Darrian
(I have my 3 painted and ready)

Not really. I might sometime in the future just as something different to do, but these threads are just the result of me thinking about them a lot since my recent exposure to them. I'd like to figure out how they work and the rules seem a bit odd.

Regardless, I would still like it explained to me why vibro cannons would ignore squad rules. The vibro cannons are not blast or template weapons so the rules for those do not apply to the vibro cannons. It also seems ludicris to me that the weapon could hit the same unit several times in one shot (hitting the guns that might fall under the line and then doing the full 1d6 hits directly to the crew). The rules for the vibro cannon very specificaly state what you do when a unit is under the line, they take 1d6 hits. Now if something with an armor value is hit (assigned one or more of the hits) it then takes a single glancing hit with no die (dice) rolled for penetration.

BTW, I agree with you and I support option 3. It seems to make sense and is the most fair.

Darrian

I'm voting for option 3 as well.

I think this is very much a case of you and your opponent deciding how to proceed.

A lot of the rules in the Eldar 'dex are pretty ambiguous. Generally, the good sportsman will simply choose to implement the "less advantageous" interpretation, in the interest of game balance and fairness.

During your previous post on this topic, I think the rules were made pretty clear; they only become muddied when you try and tease them apart out of context (that is, ignoring each other and the layout) that they become muddied.

In this particular example for this topic, I would say that Option 1 (direct hits on batteries and 1d6 on crew) is probably the quickest way to resolve the hits.

However, I would choose option 4(my option, of course!) if you're trying to play by the wrote of the rules. Artillery units have special rules for being hit, which appear in the BGB and therefore are supposed to supercede codex rules. Since under the main rulebook artillery units take hits like an infantry squad but randomize the results on gun models, I would simply roll with the Vibro Cannon as if firing at normal infantry (inflict 1d6 hits) and then randomize each "hit" generated based on the rules for Artillery units. Any "guns" that are hit will of course be destroyed (auto glance), but there is a chance that no guns are hit based on the random aspect of the Artillery rules and distributing hits.

Needless to say, what I consider the "true" interpretation above would take a bit longer to work out, but is less unbalancing. Since artillery gun models have no "armor value" perse, but are "counted as AV10" when hit according to the artillery rules, I would suspect that vibro cannons only affect the "gun" models as "vehicles" if and only if they are "hit" according to the randomization rules for inflicting hits on an Artillery unit.

I also throw my hat in for the #3 option. The target is an artillery unit. And units hit take D6 hits from Vibros. Hits on an artillery unit are randomized by rolling a D6 for each hit to determine whether crew or artillery piece is hit. I didn't ever see any confusion with this, but maybe I've been playing it wrongly(?)

My bad, I was in a rush before and didn't read your entire post. Obviously my sentiments match #3. Sorry if I gave anyone a headache...