Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's one way out there:

Are gretchen orks? No other ork unit is listed as 'ork' anywhere, and the whole book is listed as the 'ork' book. So is anything in it 'ork'?

If so, runtherdz have the mob rule. So they can replace their LD with the number of 'orks' in the unit.

So are 30 gretchen fearless?

I would say probably yea, i gotta look at it though. Its nicer in WHFB where they are all just greenskins.

Grots like orks and squigs are all fungal matter really. Waaagh that tail.

- G

Runtherdz have the Mob Rule, Gretchin do not. 30 Gretchin are not Fearless, and using their Runtherds' Mob Rule will give them, at maximum, Ld3.

Seriously, there's a thread in this forum where someone is claiming that Devilfish are not dedicated transports, and then you start this thread? What's up with you people?

if we're talking fluff I think gretchin are just little orks like nobs are big orks.

Maybe this is a question for the guys over at the WAAGH forums.

They are biologically similar to orks. However since they are weedier than a proppa ork they do not have the same mentality or disposition as orks and are denied access to the better things in the armory.

The WAAAAGH! rule makes the difference clear that grots are exceptions to all things orkish in warfare because they are weedy. Because of that they do not count as orks for puproses of Mob Rule.

Mauleed:

I don't think there is anything that explicity proves you wrong but the Ork codex has some real issues with units apparently being mislabeled with special rules they can't use.


Several units (such as Stormboyz and Deffkoptas) are listed as having 'Waaagh!' on their rules pages even though the power has no effect on them. Then you look in their army list entries and you see that there is no 'Waaagh!' listed.

Its just a hunch, but I think the same may be true of Runtherds and the 'Waaagh!' & 'mob rul' special rules. For example, the Runtherd in the Big Gunz unit (which references back to the same Runtherd entry in the rules pages) is not listed as having these special rules in the army list entry.

I'm thinking that if they ever do a FAQ or a typo re-print those rules will be removed.

But that's not going to help in the here and now.

After reading it several times, here's what I've come up with:

1. The runtherd has the mob rule, so he's LD whatever the unit size is. And if there are 11 models, he is fearless.
2. The mob itself doesn't have the rule, so it can't be fearless. And the runtherd's fearlessness is irrelevant.

That's the only way I see it working with the rules they have in place right now, though I don't doubt it will be FAQed away.

Anyone see any verbage to show I'm missing something?

Maybe if you showed what you were reading and how you were reading it, we could point out what you're missing, or what you got wrong, or certify one of your conclusions as correct.

mauleed wrote:But that's not going to help in the here and now.

After reading it several times, here's what I've come up with:

1. The runtherd has the mob rule, so he's LD whatever the unit size is. And if there are 11 models, he is fearless.
2. The mob itself doesn't have the rule, so it can't be fearless. And the runtherd's fearlessness is irrelevant.

That's the only way I see it working with the rules they have in place right now, though I don't doubt it will be FAQed away.

Anyone see any verbage to show I'm missing something?

"Ork mobs may always substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule."

The first two words in the Gretchin unit entry are "Gretchin mob" so I'd say it's safe to say they aren't fearless. As far as substituting ld is concerned it says # of Orks so I guess they're stuck with their basic leadership value.

The get a re-roll from squig hounds. Statistically that probably puts their ld up to about ld9 I'd guess. (re-roll 7 ~ 9, re-roll 6 ~ 8)

Tacobake wrote:The first two words in the Gretchin unit entry are "Gretchin mob" so I'd say it's safe to say they aren't fearless. As far as substituting ld is concerned it says # of Orks so I guess they're stuck with their basic leadership value.

If that's the case then Nobz, Meganobz, burnaboyz, lootas, tankbustas, etc. don't get the benefit of the rule either, since only ork boyz are specifically listed as 'orks'.

mauleed wrote:

Tacobake wrote:The first two words in the Gretchin unit entry are "Gretchin mob" so I'd say it's safe to say they aren't fearless. As far as substituting ld is concerned it says # of Orks so I guess they're stuck with their basic leadership value.

If that's the case then Nobz, Meganobz, burnaboyz, lootas, tankbustas, etc. don't get the benefit of the rule either, since only ork boyz are specifically listed as 'orks'.

ah ic lemme come up with a snappy answer.

yeah I see what you're saying, let's assume the grots are Orks. Bascically if the gretchin were going to be fearless they would have to be fearless themselves, they couldn't get it from the Runtherd.

But meanwhile the Runtherd is ld 10 because of the size of the mob, assuming gretchin count as an Ork Mob. That would be more RAI, stopping at ld10.

So they're an Ork Mob but they don't have the mob rule so they're not fearless.

or

they're not an Ork Mob, period.

In a friendly game I would let my opponent count them as ld 10 just because they're so useless anyway. If he paints up 30 grots he deserves a chance to see them do something.

No one cares what happens in friendly games.

so then what's the answer? ld10?

or is it just a wait for FAQ issue.

'Bout the closest I can come to defining Gretchin as being distinct from Orks is on page 6.

Page 6 seems good enough to me. No LD 10 for the grots!

Yeah, while the gretchin are Orks (fluff wise), they're not orks (game rule wise).

The gretchin definatley don't have mob rulle, furious charge of waaagh!. Those rules are listed as "Special Rules (Runtherds)". The only special rule gretchin get are "Special Rules (Gretchin): It's a Grot's Life".

The thing I find interesting is that the Runtherd get's Mob Rule & he's supposed to keep the gretchin in line. Does this mean he can count the gretchin towards his Mob Rule?

I'd say no .... mainly because the 'mob rule' rule only mentions orks (which is a shame IMO).

The do have the option of taking a squig hound (re-roll morale tests) which I guess is better than nothin. Though it is odd that they would include a special rule that the mob can't use.

Since there is no definition of an Ork and the Waagh! rules if anything seem to define Gretchin as weedier Orks, I would be inclined to give you the Mob rule benefit if you wanted it (although I would still expect the eventual someday FAQ to rule otherwise if they address the question). However, any Warboss who advances the theory that something as weedy as a Grot is an equal to the Boyz should expect a corresponding amount of verbal harrauging for it.

Fluff or not, page 6 seems to pretty clear show that grots aren't orks.

mauleed wrote:Fluff or not, page 6 seems to pretty clear show that grots aren't orks.

How is it clear? Isn't P.6 of Codex: Orks background material?

Well, the mob could be fearless... in apocolypce.

Just get 30 grots + 3 slavers + 10 warbosses joining the mob. Now the mob is fearless. That wasn't that hard, right?

Yea, I'm not sure there is an amazing argument against it by a RAW point of view, but seriously, p. 6 shows fairly well how this doesn't work (except for example above).

Okay, so how does P.6 of Codex: Orks (presumably) show this?

"Gretchin have a similar physiology to the Orks, though they are not as strong or tough. . . . Sometimes known as Grots, Gretchin are more numerous than Orks. . . ."

The grammar here make it clear that Gretchin are not Orks. Of course, this is just a description, not a rule, so make of it what you will.

Nurglitch wrote:

mauleed wrote:Fluff or not, page 6 seems to pretty clear show that grots aren't orks.

How is it clear? Isn't P.6 of Codex: Orks background material?

There's no section that says 'these aren't rules, ignore this.'

Unfortunatley it doesn't come down to page 6 (as much as I like the idea of fluff as rules .... well that's a discussion for elsewhere.).

The relevant sections of the codex (pg 50 & 100) say that the gretchin don't have mob rule.

Even though the runtherd does have the Mob Rule, it's not clear if the gretchin count towards it? I'd have to say no on the basis that the gretchin don't have the rule. If we were talking about a group of 10 runtherds, or if gretchin had Mob Rule, it would be easy.

Ok, this may be genius or just stupid. Not having seen a copy of the codex I'll go for the later but...

Imagine a huge mob of grots on the battlefield babbling away, a few getting some shots of while the poor slave driver whips them slowly towards the enemy. The grots are so stupid they dont realy get whats going on and keep shooting in the direction of the enemy rather than at them, purly becuase it stops them getting whipped. As they get closer and see epople start to hack each other appart they panic and run away, leaving the bemused slaver on his own wondering what happens before he realises he's now along and in the s###, then he flees. To me that's how a grot mob would act on the battlefield.

Putting this in a game, I'd say that the mob rule could be used, but would only affect the leadership of the ORK, so the slavers ld goes up while the grots are too stupid to benefit from it - the orks is up becuase he's 'bigger' and his head swells up with biggness, that and he's also busy whipping the grots to concentrate on anything else. Now if he was an IC (or maybe has the ability for the mob to take ld tests at his ld - I' don't know this detail) than the mob will generally pass due to the high leadershiop representing them stupidly moving forward not knowing whats going on. As they take fire and casulaties the ld starts to drop - grots realise somethings going horribly wrong for them. Eventually they panic and flee.

just my interpretation even if a bit wierd, but hey they're grots - they are weird!

Mauleed wrote:There's no section that says 'these aren't rules, ignore this.'

And so without that section, the background is clearly understood to be rules?

shirou wrote:The grammar here make it clear that Gretchin are not Orks. Of course, this is just a description, not a rule, so make of it what you will.

Or, you know, make of it what will satisfy the truth of the matter. In this case I'm still unclear on the relevance of the background to the rules.

It's additional information, which when read in context with what it says on pages 50 & 100, seems to make the intention reasonably clear. GW’s editing is still an embarrassment, but it’s clear enough for my general play purposes.

Mannahnin: How is it additional information? How can we read rules in the context of something that is irrelevant to them? More to the point, how exactly is the writer's intention relevant to what the text of the rules state? It seems cut and dried that Gretchin do not benefit from the Mob Rule because they do not have the rule.

Nurglitch wrote:Mannahnin: How is it additional information?

If one part of the book, even if it’s predominantly a fluff section, states implicitly that Orks and Gretchen are different creatures, then that’s useful information when another part of the book says that Orks benefit from special rules, then fails to tell you what counts as an Ork (unlike the Necron dex, which clearly states which models count as Necrons).

Nurglitch wrote:How can we read rules in the context of something that is irrelevant to them?

Because it’s not entirely irrelevant? If the writers and editors fail to put useful information in the logical and intuitive place to look for it, we start look around to see if we can find it elsewhere.

Nurglitch wrote:More to the point, how exactly is the writer's intention relevant to what the text of the rules state?

Because if the rule isn’t clear, one possible route by which to decide how to play it is to deduce the designer’s intention. It’s no good for debate, but in terms of the practical matter of how to come to an agreement with an opponent, I’ve certainly seen it work.

Nurglitch wrote:It seems cut and dried that Gretchin do not benefit from the Mob Rule because they do not have the rule.

I agree that the most useful information is the unit info on p50 & 100, of which the biggest element is that gretchin themselves lack the rule. But snce some models in the unit do, and some others don’t, it’s not as cut & dried as I’d like. There's a little room there for people to get confused, so having this additional reference in the codex to show them could be helpful if it comes up in a game.