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Mannahnin wrote:If one part of the book, even if it’s predominantly a fluff section, states implicitly that Orks and Gretchen are different creatures, then that’s useful information when another part of the book says that Orks benefit from special rules, then fails to tell you what counts as an Ork (unlike the Necron dex, which clearly states which models count as Necrons).

That just begs the question, in the colloquial sense. What makes that useful information?

Mannahnin wrote:Because it’s not entirely irrelevant? If the writers and editors fail to put useful information in the logical and intuitive place to look for it, we start look around to see if we can find it elsewhere.

But it is entirely irrelevant, and the writers and editors have put useful information in the logical and intuitive place as laid out by the scheme conveniently found in the book. By this schema we would expect to find the Ork Special Rules in both of two places, and we do not find in either place, either in the unit description or the army list entry, a citation o the Mob Rule.

Mannahnin wrote:Because if the rule isn’t clear, one possible route by which to decide how to play it is to deduce the designer’s intention. It’s no good for debate, but in terms of the practical matter of how to come to an agreement with an opponent, I’ve certainly seen it work.

Considering that it has been proven to be impossible to deduce a writer or designers intentions from a product then it seems that doing so is not a possible route to figuring out what the rules mean, nor a useful route to deciding how the particular players in the game at issue should play it. If you've seen this work then what you've basically done is confuse correlation with causation (clairvoyance is another example of something that many people have seen 'work', but is simply a correlation that occurs when other causal factors are at work).

Mannahnin wrote:I agree that the most useful information is the unit info on p50 & 100, of which the biggest element is that gretchin themselves lack the rule. But since some models in the unit do, and some others don’t, it’s not as cut & dried as I’d like. There's a little room there for people to get confused, so having this additional reference in the codex to show them could be helpful if it comes up in a game.

It's pretty cut and dried, if you pay attention to the Mob Rule and who has it in the unit. The Runtherds have the rule, the Gretchin don't. The Gretchin mob is an Ork unit, so the Gretchin mob may substitute its Ld for the number of Orks (those models with the Mob Rule) in the unit. If people take the time to work it out carefully, then they shouldn't get confused.

Your posts make baby jesus cry.

mauleed wrote:Your posts make baby jesus cry.

Beautiful Ed, just simply beautiful.

mauleed wrote:Your posts make baby jesus cry.

Seconded

mauleed wrote:Your posts make baby jesus cry.

Beast wrote:Beautiful Ed, just simply beautiful.

FearPeteySodes wrote:Seconded

Nice flaming.

Not flaming, just an observation. He really is crying if you listen.

They are just bitter, ignore them.

I wont get into the specifics of this issue cause I really just dont care or have the reference material to check it out, but I'd have to say that arguing about incomplete, and it IS incomplete from what everyone is saying, material and trying to put solid form to it based on that incomplete material is both difficult and will be at times impossible.
Example: While you can tell what an unfinished painting should be if enough of it is done, but you'll never know what was the rest of it. Not through intent or by design and prediction of the artists past drawings. The only way is to ask the artist to finish it.

I'm part of the group "everyone", and I say that the information is complete and sufficient.

DUDES DUDES DUDES AND DUDETTES!!! Orks and grots is fungal all.

- G(reeen!)

The Gretchin mob is an Ork unit, so the Gretchin mob may substitute its Ld for the number of Orks (those models with the Mob Rule) in the unit.

I think your are conflating Ork with "thing that has the mob rule." I don't have the codex so I might well be wrong, but I was unaware of any indication that limited Orks as being things with the Mob rule.
That being the case, by your logic the Gretchin wouldn't be fearless, but their runt herd would in fact be Ld10 as a possibility. That hinges on Gretchen being or not being "orks" with or without the mob rule.

Alternately, I notice that the unit's leadership becomes higher, not the models that make it up. That might be useful, but I don't see how now.

No, I'm not conflating Ork with "thing that has the Mob Rule". I'm saying that that Mob Rule only counts models that have it. By my logic, since the Gretchin do not have the Mob Rule, the best the unit could hope for by using that rule would be having three Runtherdz for Ld3.

I see. Your previous sentance did not make that clear I'm afraid.
I don't know that the rule only counts models that have it, but it might. I don't have it here to read.

I'm gonna have to visit one of the plagues on myself for saying this, but I think I agree with Nurglich. The codex entry for the gretchin only lists "It's a grot's life" as a special rule for them. I'm also inclined to think that without further clarification that only the runtherds benefit from each other's presence.

The only other comment I have to make is: Games workshop needs to seriously keep these things under the hood longer than they do. The !(*& that passes for finished publications in all manner of board and table top games is unacceptable.

I hope noone is insulting Canadians in this thread.

Have we agreed that Gretchin are not Orks? I think the whole point of Gretchin is that they're very cowardly; even a massive army of them would be a little on the skittish side I don't see them getting any strength in their numbers like Orks do.

tacobake wrote:Have we agreed that Gretchin are not Orks?

This is Dakka Dakka, if god published a rule book to the universe we could find every single ambiguity and argue them until god either smote us all or published a FAQ. Let's just all agree to disagree and then mutter under our breath about how we're right.

Wehrkind wrote:I see. Your previous sentance did not make that clear I'm afraid.

How was it not clear? I'm asking so I can be clear next time.

Wehrkind wrote:I don't know that the rule only counts models that have it, but it might. I don't have it here to read.

On the face of it, the rule does not state that it only counts models that have it. But we can assume that as a general rule for Special Rules and Wargear that their rules only count the models that have it. The fact that Runtherds have Sluggas does not permit Gretchin to use Sluggas instead of their Blastas, so the fact that the Runtherds have Mob Rule does not permit Gretchin to count towards the number of Orks when they do not have that rule.

Dr Phibes wrote:This is Dakka Dakka, if god published a rule book to the universe we could find every single ambiguity and argue them until god either smote us all or published a FAQ. Let's just all agree to disagree and then mutter under our breath about how we're right.

I disagree with the whole "agree to disagree" stuff. I agreed to disagree when I posted in this thread. That's sort of the point.

I agree with Nurglitch on this one... (baby jesus just started screaming...)

Maybe I need to think this through a bit more thoroughly... This can't be right...

Just kidding Nurgly... We all love you.

Nurglitch wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:I see. Your previous sentance did not make that clear I'm afraid.

How was it not clear? I'm asking so I can be clear next time.

Wehrkind wrote:I don't know that the rule only counts models that have it, but it might. I don't have it here to read.

On the face of it, the rule does not state that it only counts models that have it. But we can assume that as a general rule for Special Rules and Wargear that their rules only count the models that have it. The fact that Runtherds have Sluggas does not permit Gretchin to use Sluggas instead of their Blastas, so the fact that the Runtherds have Mob Rule does not permit Gretchin to count towards the number of Orks when they do not have that rule.

now hold on a minute, it doesn't say anywhere that you have to have the Mob Rule to be an Ork. It just says that someone with the Mob Rule, which Runt Herds do, has a leadership value dependant on the # of orks in the squad.

Tacobake wrote:
now hold on a minute, it doesn't say anywhere that you have to have the Mob Rule to be an Ork. It just says that someone with the Mob Rule, which Runt Herds do, has a leadership value dependant on the # of orks in the squad.

Yeah and that's the rub. Do grots count as orks for the purposes of mob rule checks for the herd? So far, it seems that the runtherder does not convey the Mob Rule ability onto his grots because the grots don't count as orks and therefore can't lend their weight of numbers to the check.

I'm not convinced yet though. More discussion is needed (at least for me). I will lurk on this one...

well, page 31 states "all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule (not Gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!)

that specifically differentiates Ork units and Gretchin units, does it not?

so where does it specifically state they are the same?

Tacobake: No, it doesn't say anywhere that only Orks have the Mob Rule, that's just how Special Rules and Wargear work in 40k.

Nurglitch wrote:Tacobake: No, it doesn't say anywhere that only Orks have the Mob Rule, that's just how Special Rules and Wargear work in 40k.

it does actually. under the Mob Rule! description, again on 31.

"Because of this, Ork mobs may always"

it doesnt say "friendly units"
or "allies"
or "gretchin mobs" (which is listed two paragraphs above)
Ork mobs.

how did I mis-read that?

I'm not sure you did. "Ork Mobs" means all units in Codex: Orks.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm not sure you did. "Ork Mobs" means all units in Codex: Orks.

I'm going to call you on that one, just for the sake of argument. It doesn't necessarily say that.

Analogy.

Everything in the Tyranid Codex is a Tyranid.
Everything in the Eldar Codex is an Eldar.

but.

Not everything in the Imperial Guard Codex is an Imperial Guardsman.

So say if Guardsmen had a rule that said, "All guardsmen units in 12" could use the Officer's leadership." this rule wouldn't necessarily be applied to say Ogryns or Ratlings, and you could argue fluff-wise both ways. You could say that they're lacking in discipline so they don't, and you could say that they're intelligent enough (despite rules such as Git in Dere! or whatever) and have been trained soldiers long enough that they can use the leadership just fine.

And regardless of any other codex that doesn't necessarily apply to Codex: Orks anyway.

I'm not sure you did. "Ork Mobs" means all units in Codex: Orks.

That's a false assumption. Killa Kanz and Warbuggies come in units of up to 3. You would not classify them as Orks though. They are an ork unit, and an Ork Mob is a designation independent of being a unit in the codex.

From what it appears, the only things that classify as "Ork Mobz" are designated by having "Mob Rule" in their special rules.

Tacobake: Yes, Ork units are the units found in Codex: Orks, just like Eldar units are those found in Codex: Eldar, and Imperial Guard units are those found in Codex: Imperial Guard. Perhaps amusingly, although all units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marines, there is a specific unit "Chaos Space Marines".

Famder: In Codex: Orks "unit" and "mob" are used interchangeably.

Nurglitch wrote:Tacobake: Yes, Ork units are the units found in Codex: Orks, just like Eldar units are those found in Codex: Eldar, and Imperial Guard units are those found in Codex: Imperial Guard. Perhaps amusingly, although all units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marines, there is a specific unit "Chaos Space Marines".

So Generic Demons, Greater Demons, Chaos spawn created from an enemy and Predators are "Chaos Space Marines"?

Nope.

snooggums wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Tacobake: Yes, Ork units are the units found in Codex: Orks, just like Eldar units are those found in Codex: Eldar, and Imperial Guard units are those found in Codex: Imperial Guard. Perhaps amusingly, although all units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marines, there is a specific unit "Chaos Space Marines".

So Generic Demons, Greater Demons, Chaos spawn created from an enemy and Predators are "Chaos Space Marines"?

Nope.

They aren't? I played a guy with a chaos space marine army the other day, and he had daemons, so......

The point is that it's ambiguous. Sometimes the name of the book means every unit in it, and sometimes not. The necron book is nice enough to clearify, the rest are not. So planting any flags and doing any dances of joy seems a little ridiculous, no matter which side of the argument you're on.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm not sure you did. "Ork Mobs" means all units in Codex: Orks.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Just because it's Codex: Orks doesn't mean that everything in it is an Ork.

snooggums, Tacobake: Please pay attention to what I'm saying. I'm not saying that because something is in Codex: Chaos Space Marine it is a Chaos Space Marine, or that because something is in Codex: Orks it is an Ork.

I'm saying that all units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marine units (and some Chaos Space Marine units are units of Chaos Space Marines! Other Chaos Space Marine units are Lesser Daemons, Obliterators, Chaos Terminators, etc).

Likewise all units in Codex: Orks are Ork units.

I'm talking about units. Units in a particular book are [Insert Book Subject Here] units.

Confusing Orks with Ork units is not a result of ambiguity on the part of the codex. The "orks" in the Mob Rule are the models with that rule. So Gretchin are not Orks, Deff Dreads are not Orks, Warbuggies are not Orks, Battlewagons are not Orks, Trukks are not Orks, Wargear such as Ammo Grotz and Attack Squigs are not Orks, and so on.