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I looked at the whole printed out supposed rulebook today, and some things concern me:

Basically setup is like apocalypse - roll off, winner deploys his entire army first, then the other guy, but the high roller also goes first. Anyone can put any units they want in reserves.

What else I noticed though is that while woods are now 4+ cover, area terrain no longer blocks line of sight! Now whoever goes first can shoot with impunity at the enemy units, and there's no way to hide behind terrain effectively. Units like oblits that now hide behind area terrain and move forward to shoot will suffer greatly, and going in reserves gives the enemy at least two turns of free-range shooting.

Buildings also got more dangerous and less. While fewer models will be hit by blast weapons as they can only hit one level at a time, only models on that floor can be removed, allowing for singled out hits against heavy weapons.

Things are going to change....

-Spellbound

Spellbound wrote:I looked at the whole printed out supposed rulebook today, and some things concern me:

Basically setup is like apocalypse - roll off, winner deploys his entire army first, then the other guy, but the high roller also goes first. Anyone can put any units they want in reserves.

As the player setting up second you *KNOW* the other guy is going first so you can set up with this fact in mind (and you set up second so you can try to avoid half his army by deploying on a flank). Also, all the missions have a 24" dead zone where as the current crop of missions had the 18" dead zone in cleanse, so armies will always be 24" apart to start the game.

What else I noticed though is that while woods are now 4+ cover, area terrain no longer blocks line of sight! Now whoever goes first can shoot with impunity at the enemy units, and there's no way to hide behind terrain effectively. Units like oblits that now hide behind area terrain and move forward to shoot will suffer greatly, and going in reserves gives the enemy at least two turns of free-range shooting.

You're assuming a lot. The rules allow players to designate terrain as whatever they want, so if players want LOS blocking Area Terrain, they get it. Its just that now rules are in place that if you want porous area terrain you can have it.

Buildings also got more dangerous and less. While fewer models will be hit by blast weapons as they can only hit one level at a time, only models on that floor can be removed, allowing for singled out hits against heavy weapons.

You misunderstand. The building rules limit how many models are hit from any given blast/template but then casualties can still be pulled from anywhere in the unit. There are some contradictions in the leaked rules, but it looks as though a fundamental idea of these new ruels is that you'll always be able to remove any model from your unit when it suffers casualties, without restrictions.

I can imagine the arguments over "light woods" [player who only bought one set of plastic trees]. The person with more guns will likely claim they're obviously able to see through them, while the one going second and/or getting shot more will want LOS blocking dense woods. Let's hope people are reasonable.

I can imagine the arguments over "light woods" [player who only bought one set of plastic trees]. The person with more guns will likely claim they're obviously able to see through them, while the one going second and/or getting shot more will want LOS blocking dense woods. Let's hope people are reasonable.

I think tourny organizers will have to consider defining the characteristics of terrain -- I know I will if rules stay as is. Pick up games though, I guess will depend on your locals (I'm personaly not too worried about it).

The way I'd do it is that the person who provides the terrain classifys it for friendly games. My mates are all too lazy to make their own terrain, so if they have a problem with what I consider LOS blocking area terrain they can bugger off and do some of the work for a change!

I'm in favour of GW giving broad categories and then letting organisers or players sort things out between themselves.

I agree with Yakface that going first is actually much less of an advantage now, since you get to deploy second and you know you're going second. This lets you plan it all much better. For an assault army on many tables it might be better to get the second turn, to deny your shooty opponent a turn's shooting.

How do you deny them a turn of shooting? Not everything will be out of LOS

Spellbound wrote:How do you deny them a turn of shooting? Not everything will be out of LOS

Of course, but you can keep your really good stuff out of LOS, everything else hopefully in some sort of cover and remember that since you get to see their whole deployment before you set up you can most definitely make sure that some of their units are out of range by deploying in a tight formation on one flank.

Also, you have the ability to hold anything you want in Reserve, so if you really can't find a place to hide something, you just leave it off the table.

Sounds a lot more reasonable then now, when you can both deploy second and go for a first turn alpha strike. Esp if you have things that make you reroll the first turn roll.

I like the change, its a good trade off. The question now is how does it stack up when you consider last turn objective grabbing?

I think that's being addressed in another thread, but the gist of it is that in missions with variable length games last turn objective grabbing will be risky.

I'm pretty sure impassible terrain will block line of sight still. No one outside of my local game store uses it but it helps me sleep better at night.

Actually, I'll be giving up first turn every chance I get. Going second is going to be sick.

If I know where all your units are ahead of time, I can easily stack my army against yours. I'll definantly make sure my super shooty stuff is going to rain death on the most choice targets and your assaulty stuff is going to have to take the long road before they can do anything.

Also, terrain is very subjective. I think no one is really going to be shooting through large hills or even forests. I don't think its going to be as open as you think it will be.

That is a good point. You can't shoot at something if it's partially obscured. But isn't tat the point of cover?
I'm going to be Emmanuelle Kant in on this one.

Fighting against Eldrad is really, really going to suck when he goes first.

Indeed.^^


I do like these changes a lot for some reasons:

- It will speed up deployment. The player who knows he will go first, doesnt have to place his models with anti - template gaps etc..

- Some very successful gamedesigners once said good games are easy to learn and hard to master. This is definately easier to learn and it also seems harder to master with the option of deliberately keeping units in reserves and later possibilities of flanking and deepstrike in all missions.

- Inexperienced or careless players pushing their luck by deploying in the open and hoping for first turn will be a thing of the past.

- The game will get interesting faster during early turns, because the starting player immediately can take the initiative and deploy forward towerds objectives, unlike nowerdays where a cautios player usus most of his first turn moving out of and around cover.

WM has had this since inception. It works really well there. The only key difference is the ranges of weapons between the two games. Overall, it's one of the few positives from 5th. BTW, way to rip off PP GW.

The random game length and troops only holding objectives will go a long way towards eliminating the annoying falcon parallel parking that happens in objective missions now. If players don't know when the game will end, they can't just hide until the end, because when the music stops whoever actually got their troops there will win.

Knowing you are going first gives Ravenwing Bikes a whole new perspective in power.

You know you are going first and scout 12".

You go first and move another 12".

Your Bikes are now 24" across the table, 6" away from assaulting on turn 1 and easily in rapid fire range.

How about throwing in one unit of Deathwing which teleports down next to the Bikes teleport homer, 12" up the table on the top of turn 1.

Not to shabby when you know you will be going first.

Techboss wrote:Overall, it's one of the few positives from 5th.

There are other changes for 5th that I like as well, but this first turn / deployment / reserve set is the best way to shake up how people play and theorize about 40k. The "death" of the Alpha Rush is a happy thing, and the idea of intentional reserves has interesting possibilities.

Jayden63 wrote:Actually, I'll be giving up first turn every chance I get. Going second is going to be sick.

Most of the games I win now I go second in

- Salvage

DarthDiggler wrote:Knowing you are going first gives Ravenwing Bikes a whole new perspective in power.

You know you are going first and scout 12".

You go first and move another 12".

Your Bikes are now 24" across the table, 6" away from assaulting on turn 1 and easily in rapid fire range.

How about throwing in one unit of Deathwing which teleports down next to the Bikes teleport homer, 12" up the table on the top of turn 1.

Not to shabby when you know you will be going first.

Don't scouts and infiltrators both move on from short table edges now, or is that only if you keep them in reserves?

You have to keep them in reserves to use the flank march, and even then it's not guaranteed. You have a 1/3 chance to end up on the wrong or worse side of the table.

Greets
Schepp himself

The biggest problem is the LOS issue. If Area Terrain no longer blocks LOS then units may end up with no place to hide on turn 1. This is a huge boon to long-ranged shooty armies, and it is particularly harsh to vehicles due to their vulnerability to single-shot kills.

DarthDiggler wrote:Knowing you are going first gives Ravenwing Bikes a whole new perspective in power.

You know you are going first and scout 12".

You go first and move another 12".

Your Bikes are now 24" across the table, 6" away from assaulting on turn 1 and easily in rapid fire range.

How about throwing in one unit of Deathwing which teleports down next to the Bikes teleport homer, 12" up the table on the top of turn 1.

Not to shabby when you know you will be going first.

Yeah, although you only get the first twelve inches from the scout move (plus the 6 inch range of the teleport homer) due to the fact that your reserves are now required to deploy prior to any other movement in the turn they arrive. Still, with a couple units of Ravenwing plus three units of Deathwing; if you go first you can potentially tie up two units in HTH with the bikers and have two units of Deathwing on the ground immediately to support...ouch.

That's what I'm worried about, is area terrain not blocking. Sure someone said "it's player agreement" but some of our woods templates are 12" long with three large trees on them. Every shooty player is going to argue they can see through them until we start making jungle templates clogged with so many plants that they'll then call them impassable!

DarthDiggler wrote:Knowing you are going first gives Ravenwing Bikes a whole new perspective in power.

You know you are going first and scout 12".

You go first and move another 12".

Your Bikes are now 24" across the table, 6" away from assaulting on turn 1 and easily in rapid fire range.

How about throwing in one unit of Deathwing which teleports down next to the Bikes teleport homer, 12" up the table on the top of turn 1.

Not to shabby when you know you will be going first.

What about Orks?
I'm going first?
Cool.

I deploy my Deffkopters at the front of my line.
Before the game starts, I Scout 24" (Turbo boost).
(Does the leaked rulebook say No Boosting on scout moves? The Ork Dex doesn't.)
Now, I'm in your face and I WILL be assaulting your juicy bits on turn one.

'Ow you like me now, 'Umie?

Eric

The leaked BBB says no turbo-boosting on scout moves.

And deth koptas are still fragile to any type of counter-attack/shooting. Even with a succesfull hit and run you may not be able to hide them. But I know I will be doing the same thing with them...

On the other hand, the person deploying second can deploy 7" back from the edge of their deployment zone, guaranteeing you won't be getting that first turn assault.

Spellbound wrote:On the other hand, the person deploying second can deploy 7" back from the edge of their deployment zone, guaranteeing you won't be getting that first turn assault.

True statement. IF the PDF stays pretty much the way it is I think deploying intelligently is going to be a great deal more important (kind of like it is now in Fantasy).

As for the area terrain, I really don't think it's going to be a big deal to agree beforehand that certain area terrain block LOS, especially if it's pretty obvious that it should (like woods).

(Edited to add last part)

I've been thinking about the difference between LOS porous and blocking terrain a lot lately. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

It means that those people who spent money (and points) on long ranged weapons can actually expect to see some use out of the range they have.

On the other hand, nearly all of those weapons deny saves. Combining that with the way that cover works for vehicles now, and it's not that much of a significant change as I see it.

On top of those things, porous area terrain does away with the beardy tactic of limiting LOS and range sniping (which appears to go away, despite conflicting rules) a couple of models while limiting the return fire. Although it's easier to manuever with the run rule, maneuver means a little bit less than it did.

Porous area terrain makes a lot more things "in play" but it also gives people a LOT more saves than they currently get. It increases the complexity of the game, and I'm all for it.

Yaks point about being able to designate LOS blocking area terrain is a good one. Remember that other terrain like intact buildings can still be WSIWYG.

Build cool terrain!