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As the previous one was closed due to alien parasitic invasion or something:

It's early days and much can and probably will change but who's looing like they're gonna get a healthy boost? We know lots of previously top tier armies are looking over their shoulders with trepidation at the moment, and the new Boyz on the block are feeling pretty confident, but who do you think (pure speculation obviously) will be dominating the tournaments?

Obviously the Orks seem to be looking healthy, lots of troops with the new run ability has got to be nice.

Personally I'm thinking the Black Templars might be a good bet. You can go foot-slogger/troop heavy if you like but with the possibility of a much more impressive Landraider (less to fear from anything less than strength 9, and less heavy weapons on the table to boot), and the fact that it's unlikely their codex will be hit by 'nerfbat' for a long time I think they look good. Especially if the new preferred enemy rule that the whole army can get is as good as it sounds.

I read Mauleed post that he thinks the Guard are gonna be winners, not sure I see the reasoning there but he often sees things that don't occur to me.

So what do you think, something's gotta fill the Nidzilla/mech skimmer shaped hole in the top tables..

I keep seeing people focusing on what will kill better or survive better in 5th.

What I don't see is people talking about how critical objective grabbing will be. Only troops being able to hold objectives, and objectives being the key to 2/3 of the missions, means that things with either cheap plentiful, cheap durable, and/or cheap mobile troops choices will be the top tiered armies.

It won't matter who screens what and where models get pulled from or how much of a cover save vehicles get without talking about scoring units and objective grabbing.

I'll re-post my thoughts here. In broad terms, top tier in the 5th edition (as the PDF rules now stand) will be armies that can focus nearly entirely on troops choices. Their armies will be worth less 'VP' and won't have any trouble with mission objectives. All armies can't do this because their troop choices are either sub-standard or unable to fight against all types of threats. If we ignore the troops and mission requirements, armies with lots of assault units seem to benefit the most from the run and flank march rules.

EDIT: If you didn't figure out already, I feel exactly the same way as mauleed does about the new edition. The changes in killing potential or survivability between elite or heavy support units are largely insignificant in comparison to the mission and scoring changes. Instead of making threads about Harlequins and Falcons and whatnot, I'd like you guys to discuss the troop choices of different armies and the new imbalance this change represents.

mauleed wrote:

It won't matter who screens what and where models get pulled from or how much of a cover save vehicles get without talking about scoring units and objective grabbing.

How are screening units not helpful in that equation Maulmeister, if they are sufficiently cheap to get other scoring units to the objective? For instance gaunts could potentially be an excellent screen, and are themselves a troop choice. Please elaborate (I've lots of nurgling bases to make otherwise for my demon list )

Interestingly, now I can see a reason why the Chaos codex doesn't have cultists/cheap demons, as they could be a running screen.

Therion wrote:I'll re-post my thoughts here. In broad terms, top tier in the 5th edition (as the PDF rules now stand) will be armies that can focus nearly entirely on troops choices. Their armies will be worth less 'VP' and won't have any trouble with mission objectives. All armies can't do this because their troop choices are either sub-standard or unable to fight against all types of threats. If we ignore the troops and mission requirements, armies with lots of assault units seem to benefit the most from the run and flank march rules.

I suppose Blood Angels would fit that criteria nicely. They can take assault squads as troops and fly around the board with 'run'. They can also take 3 attack bikes with multi-meltas for 150pts to pop tanks. Not to shabby.

I suppose Blood Angels would fit that criteria nicely. They can take assault squads as troops and fly around the board with 'run'.

I agree. I haven't made any lists, but if it worked, it would be one hell of a fast and fun army to play.

Space Marines. Because I said so.

Therion wrote:

I suppose Blood Angels would fit that criteria nicely. They can take assault squads as troops and fly around the board with 'run'.

I agree. I haven't made any lists, but if it worked, it would be one hell of a fast and fun army to play.

Played an all air BA list Sunday. Very fast and interesting list (ok maybe because they died to a man to my stealers, interesting to me). Their mobility and ferocity were quite effective, with the edition of objectives we might see a good deal more of them.

I would have to say a Space Marines and variants will have to remain good because that is a good portion of their player base that play those armies if they piss off a large portion of their player base it would be bad.

mauleed wrote:I keep seeing people focusing on what will kill better or survive better in 5th.

What I don't see is people talking about how critical objective grabbing will be. Only troops being able to hold objectives, and objectives being the key to 2/3 of the missions, means that things with either cheap plentiful, cheap durable, and/or cheap mobile troops choices will be the top tiered armies.

It won't matter who screens what and where models get pulled from or how much of a cover save vehicles get without talking about scoring units and objective grabbing.

There are two types of objective grabbers: Take and Hold tarpits and Last Turn Cleanse Grabbers.

I'm mostly just guessing.

Space Marinez
Combat Squads FTW. They need to justify them somehow, right?
-> Maybe every army has one or two in drop pods, which is how they were anyway. Others have pointed out the variance between lists is what your Troops count as. Bikes, Jump Packs, Combat Squads, etc.
-> They're MEQ, they're killy and hard to kill. This will never change.
Killy: B+
T&H: B+
Cleanse: B+

Necrons:
Killy: A
T&H: A
Cleanse: C+

Tau:
Maybe a bit more use of Kroot, 10 man squads.
Killy: A
T&H: B
Cleanse: B+

CSM:
Their troop choices are resilient, fearless or plentiful (wargear heavy CSM Squads).
-> no real change to existing tactics post new codex, other than maybe new thoughts on squad sizes. Maybe people like taking a couple of 6 man CSM squads. Lack of heavy weapon compared to combat squads hurts them as far as sit back and grab objectives is concerned.
Killy: A
T&H: A
Cleanse: B

Tyranids:
-> Without Number.
-> I once lost a game of cleanse to a 10 man squad of Termagaunts because I couldn't kill a 6th termagaunt. Get used to that sort of thing.
Killy: B
T&H: A
Cleanse: A

Orks
-> All their Troop are assaulty. Expect Orks to be based around Troop with HQ and shooty elements for support. Obvious, I know.
Killy: B+
T&H: A+
Cleanse: B

Guard
-> No real change. If anything it helps them because their support units may not be worth killing.
-> Currently get infiltrate, drop pods and transports in Troop
Killy: A (Heavy Support got a big boost here)
T&H: A
Cleanse: A

Inquisition
-> May see more use of Storm Troopers, which most strong players were including anyway. Deep Striking Grey Knights are Fast Attack (at least for now) so expect less of that, which is a shame.
Killy: B
T&H: B
Cleanse: B

Eldar
-> Jetbikes are the game's best pure objective grabbers. Guardians are effective tarpits. Avatar == the win.
Killy: B+
T&H: B+
Cleanse: A

Well if I'm not mistaken, those last turn objective grabbers are effectively dead because of the Random Game Length.

This is the one reason I don't like Eldar Jetbikes, at least for the Take and Hold Mission.

Sure you can hide them and go zoom in for the objective grab, but if Turn 6 is played, then your opponent can go after that relatively fragile unit. Especially if they've got something non scoring near by to guard that objective.

As of now, if you know you've got last turn, you can zoom those jetbikes in to grab a loot counter, doesn't matter if that Carnifex is still alive with 2/5 wounds, he's not scoring - you get the objective and win.

Now if you go for that, the Fex can turn around and eat you on a 3+ for Turn 6, or 4+ for Turn 7.

That means you don't just have to be a fast objective grabber, you've got to get there and sit there for potentially 2-3 turns.

So in the case of Jetbikes, I don't see them being all that great. Marines in a Drop Pod, or Necrons who can teleport over there, they could be pretty decent.

Additionally, people keep talking about a horde of Boyz or well, a horde of anything getting to an objective and sitting on it.

This sounds great till you play a Dawn of War mission, only 2 Troops and an HQ go down. The rest that don't deepstrike or infiltrate come in via the players long table edge. No more "coming in 12" up the sides" like in Escalation now.

Seems to me the armies that will do the best are not only the ones with great troops, but also the ones with troops that can deepstrike or infiltrate. Marines in Drop Pods or IG with doctrines fill this gap.


The cool thing I see is that there are a number of ways one can force a win. By placing objectives intelligently (near cover in your deployment zone) an army could plan on winning by claiming their objective and defending it well, using non-scoring suicide squads to eliminate enemy troops holding their opponents objectives, giving them the win.

I think the point of it is that no matter how you slice it, the game is going to get pretty bloody in order to win.

hmm good points.

There is also changes to cover to consider. I see why area terrain is not supposed to block LoS, it's so those same Jetbikes or other cheap Troop choices can't just hide someplace.

It also gives shooty squads that can't be screened (while assault squads can) a chance to shoot at more targets, but they have to deal with the increase to cover.

I think Death Guard will be pretty pro from what ive seen.

I could be delusional, but it seems to me that the DA codex might actually be worth a shot.

Ravenwing as troops that can split into combat squads regardless of starting in reserves. (the ravenwing combat squad rule says that speeders and attack bikes always split soo....) Deploying thru the table edges. straight into the enemy with some 18 or so seperate units that count for a maximum of what.....6 kill points? Not sure if a split squad counts as more kill points or not, its still a single selection off of the Force organisation chart.

...but im probably delusional. I havent looked much into the possibility yet...just an idea.

I dunno, Voodoo, I think Guardian Jetbikes will be quite good -- they aren't any less resiliant per point than assault marines (and with a farseer, more resiliant), and are more mobile and shootier. What we haven't seen in 4th that would seem to be strong in 5th is masses of Guardian Jetbikes -- this isn't the 4e three guardians, shuricannon, warlock choice, but lots of bikes. If their only weakness next to an assault marine is assault, and they're more survivable and shootier... well, I'm not sure they're going to be any worse.

Assuming Deathclaws exist as rumored and Living Metal makes it into 5e unchanged (at least, until the new Necron codex...), I'd look at Chaos in pods and Necrons as the top-tier with drop pod (or assault-marines-as-troops) SM and jetbike Eldar following up.

All of these lists have 3+ troops, and all have some way to get them on to objectives easily -- either jump or jetbikes, or some deep-strike-or-better reserves rule. All can drop a lot of points into troops effectively.

Prior to the new SM codex (which seems to me to mean "not worth building a new army around due to likely duration"), a Cleanse and Purify/Purity Above All SM chapter sounds interesting to me.

Well, because the DA can also take Termies as troops they could potentially deathwing assault out of nowhere and freaking plaster that objective your holding... That and since the Ravenwing counts as troops as well we have a very fast somewhat survivable (but then again their main job is deliver the termies via teleport homer) objective grabber that can sit there a couple of turns. And get some Termie death support if things get hairy.

OOOOOOH White Scars could see an upturn in numbers... Eating 40 bikes up one flank can hurt like hell if you aren't ready for it.

I think you can see the emphasis in troops in the new DA?CSM codecies, in the DA, ou can have loads of different troop choices dependent on the commander, and as for CSM< they have excellent and varied troops to choose from!

I'm curious why people would think necrons are top tier. I don't see alot of effective necron armies that load up on warriors. And the whole army is now more vulnerable to hth due to running.

Killing still makes up a large part of the game.
Thatswhy necrons are going down a couple of notches. Since they only glance vehicles thy can't kill any out side of heavy destoyers. Meanwhile the three leman russes plugging away at said necron squad are going to murder it done to non scoring.

I understand the emphasis on objective grabbing. But good players will know you want to grab some objective with you bikes last turn and will probably try to do something about it. Not to mention random game length makes objective grabbing risky business.
That said assault troop armies are going to have a hard time. Naturally they need to hold objectives, but they also need to assault you to make sure you don't hold any. When your bogged down in assault it's harder to zip back over to unclaimed objectives.

Here's a good one at 1850pts

HQ - Lemartes
EL - 9 Death Comapny with Jump Packs
TR - 10 Assault Marines, Vet w/ Fist
TR - 10 Assault marines Vet w/ Fist
TR - 10 Assault marines, Vet w/ PW
TR - 10 Assault Marines, Vet w/ PW
FA - 3 Attack Bikes w/ multimelta
FA - 3 Attack Bikes w/ multimelta
FA - 3 Attack Bikes w/ multimelta

That's got enough speed, CC punch and anti-tank fire. Looking at it now there's not much to whittle down 30-man Boyz mobs before they engage them in HtH. Looks good though and only ~ $490 retail.

Necrons: 3 monoliths: 705 pts. Winning every game because monoliths are impossible to kill with glancing sixes and a lot less likely to die from penetrating hits, and every army is going to lose half of its antitank guns: priceless.

old monolith eats a lascannon:
1/36 chance of a glancing kill, 4/36 chance of a penetrating kill: 5/36 chance of dying -> 13.9%

new monolith eats a lascannon:
0/36 chance of a glancing kill, 2/36 chance of a penetrating kill: 2/36 chance of dying -> 5.6%

Old monolith eats a railgun:
4/6 hit, 4/6 penetrate, 16/36 * 1/2 == 8/36 chance of death -> 22.2%

New monolith eats a railgun:
4/6 hit: 1/36 chance of dying from a glance, 9/36 penetrate * 1/2 = 9/72, total of 11/72 (5.5/36) chance of death -> 15.3%

--------------------------------------------------

My math could be wrong but I'm fairly sure it's at least in theory accurate. No army in the game is going to be capable of killing more than one monolith per game reliably under most circumstances.

The damage done by 3 monoliths constantly making squads reroll their WBB rolls, and gauss fluxing everything in sight, is going to be insane.

Couple this with the upcoming nerf to las/plas squads (in the new marine dex), and the nerf to elite/fast/heavy squads for victory point purposes, and the inability of Godzilla nids to kill monoliths at all...

If anye excellent player gets ahold of a necron codex and three monoliths, he is going to be nearly impossible to beat.

This is of course assuming those damage tables are correct

Agree that the necron hype is far far overrated. The monolith is more survivable, and the rest of the army just came apart at the seams.

Lascannon Now
Glance: .166 * .166 = .028
Pen: .166 * .5 = .083
Total: .111 (11.1%)

Lascannon 5th
Glance: .166 * 0 = 0
Pen: .166 * .333 = .056
Total: .055 (5.6%)

Railgun Now: Pen kill on 4,5,6
Glance: 0 * .166 = 0
Pen: .5 * .5 = .25
Total: .25 (25%)

Railgun 5th: Glance kill on 6, pen kill on 4,5,6
Glance: .166 * .166 = .028
Pen: .333 * .5 = .166
Total: .194 (19.4%)

Now, throw in cover saves for said monolith and yeah it's going to be crazy survivable. The good news is that any weapon destroyed or immobilized result will net you half points for them and they aren't scoring ever. I agree the monolith go meaner, I just don't see that translating to auto-win necrons. They can't handle armor period now, IC rules will really hose the Lord who will likely get stuck with squads who end up running or being sweeped, and closecombat is going to be absolute murder for them.

When I claimed Necrons would be top tier I based it on their present uber ness + monoliths getting better.

I didn't think of their own ineffectiveness against AV 14.

Don't they have alot of 2d6 AP close combat stuff?

The % chance to kill Monoliths went down when one shot is taken at a time, but even in glancing, once the Monolith is brought to the ground it can be pounded on in close combat. I'm not saying this makes it easier or even the same chance to kill it, just maybe not as bad as those numbers indicate for Godzilla.


I also like the idea of Dakkafexes being replaced with Barbed Strangler Fexes in the Elite spot. If all templates hit and only scatter, a 36" range, 5" diameter, str 8 template might be better then double twin-linked devourers.

I'm kinda liking the idea of:
Carni, 2x scything, bioplasma, +initiative : 115
Single S10 at I4, 5 S9 at I2.

And he can fairly reliably swat at skimmers with that bioplasma.

I wouldn't base my army around em, but it might be worth losing a dakkafex for it.

The thing is, the only armor that Necrons care about is rhinos (immobilize is as good as kill), trukks (same), and landraiders (immobilize is as good as killing, shaking is easy to do), and battlecannons (shaking all that matters).

Since armor can't score and none of it can put out enough shots to threaten necrons, they really do not care.

Necrons didn't lose that much utility because unlike godzilla, they can put out enough glancing hits to neutralize any number of vehicles.

The monolith is not neutralized by shaken, stunned or even immobilized results.

---------------------------

the downside of course is that you've got no scoring units really (or very few). The upside is you can get craploads of kill points and no one is getting any from you.

---------------------------

Even barring the monolith, the warrior horde phalanx with destroyers and heavy destroyers is going to be painful. Orbed warriors are just about the hardest thing point for point to kill in the game.

My other big pick for top tier is plague marines with lash princes, and possessed landraiders for tankbusting

Is it even possible to beat nids who use Without Number if victory points don't matter? Or does it not work that way. The whole point of Without Number is supposed to be your disadvantage is that your opponent can get points more than once for killing you.

Longshot: The Monolith can be destroyed by cumulative glancing hits with a Damage result. A minimum of six, I believe, but I suspect I'm wrong (one per Flux Arc projector, one to Immobilize, and one for the kill).