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I believe it's more like 8 (I think it takes six to ruin the arc flux projector).

Even so, six glancing hits that are weapon destroyed or better - the odds of that are frigging astronomical.

Much more likely is to land it and power fist it to death.

Nonsense, a weapon destroyed result simply puts minus 1 on the number of shots the flux arc puts out. Nothing indicates you can't flux for d6 -99 hits. Weapon destroyed results will never immobilize a Monolith.

You could shoot a Sniperfex at a monolith for a substantial amount of time without doing anything, as their venom cannons are hitting at -3, 2 for being a glance and 1 for glancing only, and their barbed strangler is hitting at -2. Seems unlikely that one fex can destroy one monolith over the course of a game. 12 VC shots = nothing. 6 BS shots...3 hits, .5 glances, which immobilizes on a roll of 6...so, a Sniperfex that shoots at a Monolith for an entire game has a 1 in 12 of immobilizing it?

More interesting to me is that the previous Necron mirror match calculus of whoever has the most liths loses seems to have been turned on its head. Gauss is just as unable to destroy a lith (although more likely to immobilize it) as venom cannons.

A while ago I built a list that was composed of 3 liths, a ROVOD Lord and lots of warriors. Basic idea was to hide behind terrain till the Liths fell and spat out warriors, whereupon the mandatory's were ported by the Veil and a Lith that wasn't busy over there. Necron Drop Pods, if you will. Maybe in the 5th ed that'll go from one of my silly lists to my tournament setup? Distressing.

Venomcannons don't damage with -3! It's -2 all the time because of glance-only. It has an AP of 4.

I think that the necron codex will change in the near future. stock up on monoliths if you want but don't cry if it's weaker after the redo.

Greets
Schepp himself

I have no idea where people are getting the idea of a necron redo. Has it been mentioned by a reliable source?

My understanding was Space Marines, IG, and Dark Eldar were all on deck first.

Oh, I'll have to check the pdf again. I thought glance only weaponry was -1, and then you got minus 2 for getting a glancing hit.

Modifiers:
Glancing hit -2
Hit by ‘AP–‘ weapon -1
Hit by ‘AP1’ weapon +1
Target is Open-topped +1

In 4th, AP- weapons can only glance. Hence your confusion.

Anyone else feel like those modifiers are going to get confusing? I can already feel my eyes glazing over.

Na, easy to remember, not many modifiers. If they start giving individual weapons special ones you might have a problem.

No, seems pretty straightforward to me.

Tacobake wrote:Anyone else feel like those modifiers are going to get confusing? I can already feel my eyes glazing over.

I'll be fine so long as I don't have to turn a page to find a rule as well. I'll just play it as Spase mareenz (hurr!) win on a 4+ if it gets too much.

Just before every fast transport vehicle disappears from the tabletop, I can't seem to find anything in the leaked PDF about a maximum move distance for disembarking i.e. you can still disembark from a fast vehicle that moved 18".

Try "Transport Fast Vehicles" on P.73.

I don't see why an army with mobile troop choices (Marines in Razorbacks/etc) can't be good. Why not make your usual, cheap little max-min Space marine squads but with a razorback instead of the guy with the las cannon, sure its extra points, but it gives greater mobility and the chance to go objective-hunting. I don't think that any army that can take transports with good weapon loadouts is going to get "nerfed" that hard as long as they're well coordinated. Personally, I can see speed freak orks being very good again, (I wouldn't give them a B) now that shootas are a half-decent weapon.

Don't forget mobile cover.

Nurglitch wrote:Try "Transport Fast Vehicles" on P.73.

Aha! Good catch, I thought (hoped) It'd be there somewhere.

Longshot wrote:I have no idea where people are getting the idea of a necron redo. Has it been mentioned by a reliable source?

My understanding was Space Marines, IG, and Dark Eldar were all on deck first.

Can't comment on the second part, but I heard on various places (don't call me on them) that when/if necron get a redo, they lose Phase out, get FNP and become tougher. Surely Monoliths would change accordingly, without fear of phasing and stuff.

Greets
Schepp himself

Ok, maybe I'm deluded, but how are BT not on a list of potentially awesome armies? they have the two things that every 5th edition army needs: durable and fast troops choices, and decent anti-tank (las/plas squads)

They suffer less from the death of rending and SMF then SAFH marines. They can take LRCs as troops. They can grab Tankhunters on their sword brethren squads. They even have the beef to wrangle with orcs in HtH.

I had an interesting thought earlier - Land Raiders are going to be pretty nasty in the new edition. Durable and pack alot of firepower.

Plus they have the rule that they are always scoring. Granted, I might be confused, but they should be able to score in 5th edition if they keep this rule.

I'm not sure about the Drop Pod Marines hype.

1. X amount of points will be tied into your pods, so you'll have to make up for the fact that:

2. Dawn of war deployment, you'll have to deploy your two Troops and HQ on the board. I assume this is whether they have pods or not. Sucks for your podding fear Librarian.

3. They're going to be going first half the time, and can't all armies intuitively counter it by putting their entire army into reserve? And they'll probably have their own Deep Strikers and Flankers.

So sometimes ~half the pod army will be coming down with nothing to shoot at, and then slogging around the rest of the game. So if you're the podding player playing loot, what do you do? Pod all your guys onto one objective? Cool I'll just avoid that one and assault all the rest. Scatter your guys around? Then I can concentrate force and take objectives at will.

Deathwinds will be pretty cool though.




As a Necron player, Necrons get boned. I don't care if the Monolith gets X% tougher, I care that the Warriors aren't that great now, Assault troops are running, It got harder to down transports, now even when I do there will be no entanglement, and they'll be @#$%ed away in combat come 5th with the change to sweeping advance and morale based on casualties. Heck even running dreadnoughts just became a huge pain in the ass.

4th ed if I don't tear it up with Gauss fire, it charges 12 man Necron squad, kills two, I pull BtB casualties, test on Ld 10, teleport out next turn.

5th ed glancing is neutered, ( and with a possible venerable reroll on immobilized and weapon destroyed) charge 12 man Necron squad, knock down two, Necrons test on Ld 8, flee, entire unit destroyed.

slowed.

Hadn't even thought of running dreadnoughts! Chaos dreads with 2 ccw running across the field could be fun.

Scarily enough, I can see Black Templars getting a boost with the wound allocation. Help me out if I missed it, but you spread around one wound to each model before doubling up. Is there no more mixed armor rules, dictating which save you have to start with?

I'm thinking 20 strong squads and having the ability to pull off the Neophytes first every time they get shot (assuming not enough wounding hits to get to the Space Marines)

With Abhor the Witch (IIRC), they would get a free move pregame and be able to run. This could be a lot of resilient Troop choices quickly getting on objectives and possibly having the resiliency to stay.

Feasable?

Can I be a conspiracy theorist for a minute and tell you my belief? I think space marines will be top tier. I think that basic marines are going to drop about 3 points a piece, as well as other cheap units. I wouldnt be suprised if land raiders topped out at 170 fully loaded next edition. I think this is coming around less for army balance, as this isnt really needed, and more of GW sweating there lower sales numbers for the recent years. I believe this reason is also why 5th ed was put on the fast track. And space marines + tournament dominating cailber power = GW profit. I bet when the 5th ed space marine pdf makes the scene, alot of us regulars are going to be asking "wtf how is this fair to give to a 3+ save army with the best basic troops in the game already??" But I guess we will see.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:I'm not sure about the Drop Pod Marines hype.

Well, why not?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:1. X amount of points will be tied into your pods, so you'll have to make up for the fact that.

This is true, but it is also true when you take rhinos, chimera, landraiders, falcons, wave serpents, raiders, trukks, ect. Any transport will cost you points to field. And the idea behind every transport is that you exchange some points for protection and mobility. Granted next edition marines can simply hold units in reserve as opposed to dropping them, this does nothing for their mobility.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:2. Dawn of war deployment, you'll have to deploy your two Troops and HQ on the board. I assume this is whether they have pods or not. Sucks for your podding fear Librarian.

Codex allways supersedes BBB, I'de imagine they would start in the pod they paid for.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote: 3. They're going to be going first half the time, and can't all armies intuitively counter it by putting their entire army into reserve? And they'll probably have their own Deep Strikers and Flankers.

As of know all armies can intuitively counter drop pods by formation. That aside, yes I could deploy my army in reserve but it hurts me more than you. With new rules vehicles can't move and shoot well so the turn I march out onto the board my fire power will be next to nothing. I won't have any units set up in cover and if a marine player podded some units into cover on my side of the board things become a shooting gallery. If you make it past the gaunlet you have to start plodding toward objectives.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote: sometimes ~half the pod army will be coming down with nothing to shoot at, and then slogging around the rest of the game. So if you're the podding player playing loot, what do you do? Pod all your guys onto one objective? Cool I'll just avoid that one and assault all the rest. Scatter your guys around? Then I can concentrate force and take objectives at will.

As stated you grab a couple of objectives and dig in. Using your scenario, there are alot of armies that don't have the fire/assault power to move marines off objectives. Keep in mind with random game length if I spread my army around and get the majority of objectives by turn two you have at the very worst one turn to kill my marines and claim at least half the objectives. If you

Halfpast_Yellow wrote: concentrate force and take objectives at will

then your using your army in a slow unwieldily fashion. Not even eldar can redeploy that quickly.


Pod armies won't be the end all. But they seem more than viable.

Orock is right. Let's face it, Space Marines at the top dog in the game. It stands to reason that they'll be the top dog in 5th edition as well.

true, Pods will still be decent.

However if you know anything about Necrons you'll know they'll be bottom tier until they get an updated codex.

More survivable Monoliths , whoop-di-doo, they were already pretty survivable. Won't make up for:

1). Can't kill vehicles
2). Warrior heavy armies suck, can't do T5 armies as effectivly as 4th.
3). Can't entangle enemy tranported troops.
4). New combat rules (morale modifiers, grenades, can sweeping advance if not in BtB) mean that combat for necrons is a joke, you're looking at about a ~%1000 more sweeping advances, and simple phase outs. It will be ridiculous.

Necrons can kill vehicles. If the pdf is to be believed they can either kill open-topped vehicles with a single glancing hit, or kill all vehicles through cumulative Damage hits (Weapons and Immobilized). Likewise Heavy Destroyers can kill vehicles quite handily.

Warrior heavy armies don't need to suck, and you won't need to take Warrior heavy armies. The Necrons have supporting units like Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, Scarabs, and Pariahs to provide muscle in close combat. That is, if you don't waste the points on Destroyers... Likewise Warrior units, thanks to their Gauss weapons and Disruption Fields, are some of the toughest Troops in the game. But taking Warrior heavy armies will only benefit a player in missions where taking objectives is key.

If the so-called 5th edition rules are any indication, then the un-imaginative "Necron Phalanx" will go out the window and Necron players will need to take more diverse and well-rounded armies to keep up with Space Marine Jones.

Space Marines are top dog? Hmmm. Numbers of players playing them, might be top dog. Best current Codex? Perhaps.

Almost all the other Codices are built to kill Marines, and Marines don't kill Marines very well.

I myself favor Xenos armies over Marines for top army types, lots of players have lots of experience playing and playing against Marines. Not nearly so many have experience playing Xenos, or playing against Xenos. Few have experience playing and playing against Xenos.

It's just an edge. End of rambling. lol

Stelek wrote:Space Marines are top dog? Hmmm. Numbers of players playing them, might be top dog. Best current Codex? Perhaps.

Almost all the other Codices are built to kill Marines, and Marines don't kill Marines very well.

I myself favor Xenos armies over Marines for top army types, lots of players have lots of experience playing and playing against Marines. Not nearly so many have experience playing Xenos, or playing against Xenos. Few have experience playing and playing against Xenos.

It's just an edge. End of rambling. lol

Im pretty sure he was just being sarcastic. And my post was meant to point out that if GW is really interested in getting out of the hole profit wise, there next logical step would be to make the highest selling army (space marines) appeal to even more players by simply making them extremely powerful. If the combination of space marine models + top tier quality rules dont make them money, well then GW is in serious trouble.

Nurglitch wrote:Necrons can kill vehicles. If the pdf is to be believed they can either kill open-topped vehicles with a single glancing hit, or kill all vehicles through cumulative Damage hits (Weapons and Immobilized). Likewise Heavy Destroyers can kill vehicles quite handily.

Warrior heavy armies don't need to suck, and you won't need to take Warrior heavy armies. The Necrons have supporting units like Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, Scarabs, and Pariahs to provide muscle in close combat. That is, if you don't waste the points on Destroyers... Likewise Warrior units, thanks to their Gauss weapons and Disruption Fields, are some of the toughest Troops in the game. But taking Warrior heavy armies will only benefit a player in missions where taking objectives is key.

If the so-called 5th edition rules are any indication, then the un-imaginative "Necron Phalanx" will go out the window and Necron players will need to take more diverse and well-rounded armies to keep up with Space Marine Jones.

Sure, they *can* kill vehicles. But the ease of doing so is another matter. Twelve Warriors rapidfiring on a Rhino tend to score ~2-3 glances. 4th ed that gives you a decent try at rolling a 6. 5th ed, I have to roll 3 5+'s to kill it through cumulative results. Assuming that I roll 3 glances that's what, 4% odds of doing so? And to what end? Theres no entanglement, pinning check gets laughed off, so assuming a miracle you've still got a squad of Space Marines staring down your Necron Warriors who will in all likelyhood be charged and swept the following turn.

Necrons hardly care about being shot at so I don't give a whether I can shakelock vehicles or not, I care about the threatening MEqs, Dreadnoughts, w/e getting up in my face and taking me apart in HtH.

Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, Pariahs, C'tan, yeah they really get about the board fast with their 6" move. Guess they'll be relegated to countercharging once the enemy closes and hits my warriors. Oh wait, too late I don't have any warriors anymore, they got charged by a winged DP, or insert-other-fast-hitter here who knocked down 3 and swept the entire unit with a ld7 check which I could not do anything about at all. In 4th I fail enough Ld10 checks, know that warriors can't cause casualties for to know to pull my BtB warriors every time, then teleport the following turn. 5th ed, no chance.

For the record, I don't play Necron Phalanx, for the record I own the Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, Pariahs, C'tan, and use them in games. I know my Necrons. If you can show me a list (1500) that incorporates those units and isn't bottom tier by PDF rule standards, I will eat my army. It's that dire for Necrons. Even 2000 point Necrons are probably screwed.

The current Necron codex is for 5th ed if most of that PDF becomes the 5th ed rulebook.

Orock: No, I don't use sarcasm, it interferes with communication. I'm quite serious that Space Marines will be the top tier army in 40k. Consider that what is 'top tier' is what is considered 'top tier' by the wisdom of the Internet. It's an opinion based on consensus and group-think. Since Space Marines are the most widely played army, and the most forgiving for beginners and pretzels, they'll be acclaimed the 'top tier' army. They won't be made powerful when they're up-dated for the 5th edition, but people with loud voices will think they are and that's all that matters when considering 'top tier' rankings.

Halfpast_Yellow: Yes, on average a squad of Necron Warriors will only cause a couple of Glancing Hits to vehicles. A Rhino armed with a storm-bolter and a pintle-mounted storm bolter will be able to absorb, at minimum, four Glancing hits provided all of those hits either destroy weapons or immobilize it.

Once the vehicle is destroyed and its passengers dismount, the Necron player may then engage that unit with another Necron unit. Of course it will be better if you take down the Rhino with a Heavy Destroyer and employ your Warriors to thin the unit that tumbles out.

You should be doing this at arm's length, beyond 12", so that the unit disposed of their transport cannot simply charge you in their turn. Or you can simply run your Flayed Ones in between the Warrior unit and the Space Marines after the Warrior unit is finished shooting. Or simply assault them first with Wraiths backed up by Flayed Ones. Worst comes to worst any nearby Warriors can run/teleport to the rear and leave the Space Marines outside of charging range.

Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, Pariahs, and even the C'tan will all be able to run. Having a C'tan jogging alongside a large unit of Warriors will give you a fine way to mulch any Daemon Princes that decide to harass them. Tomb Spyders will free up Necron Lords from Orb-toting duties to get stuck in with their Gaze of Flame and Warscythe.

Necrons, used well, are used much like any other armies. This use is exemplified by the Eldar: synergy. Several units in a Necron army should gang up on a unit in the other army and go to town, picking the opposing force apart while avoiding return fire. How good of a player you are, and how good of a player your opponent is, will determine the game.

In terms of a list, I don't have my Necron Codex with me right now, but I'm thinking for 2000pts:

Nightbringer
Necron Lord (Veil of Darkness, Gaze of Flame, Warscythe, Phylactery)
Two Flayed Ones Units
Pariahs
Three Warrior Units
Two Wraith Units
Scarabs
Heavy Destroyers
Tomb Spyder (Claws)
Monolith

Leave out the Monolith and Nightbringer for smaller games, 1500pts.

If you want, we can play a battle using MS-paint to define the board, an online-randomizer for the dice rolls, and so on so we can explore this list under the 5th edition rules properly.

Nurglitch wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow: Yes, on average a squad of Necron Warriors will only cause a couple of Glancing Hits to vehicles. A Rhino armed with a storm-bolter and a pintle-mounted storm bolter will be able to absorb, at minimum, four Glancing hits provided all of those hits either destroy weapons or immobilize it.

Once the vehicle is destroyed and its passengers dismount, the Necron player may then engage that unit with another Necron unit. Of course it will be better if you take down the Rhino with a Heavy Destroyer and employ your Warriors to thin the unit that tumbles out.

Well sure, you could try those 65 point a pop 36" range BS4 Lascannons. With 5+ smoke cover saves for vehicles, weaker penetrating hit table, and limited slot availabilty for them, all I can say is "Are you feeling lucky?"

You should be doing this at arm's length, beyond 12", so that the unit disposed of their transport cannot simply charge you in their turn. Or you can simply run your Flayed Ones in between the Warrior unit and the Space Marines after the Warrior unit is finished shooting. Or simply assault them first with Wraiths backed up by Flayed Ones. Worst comes to worst any nearby Warriors can run/teleport to the rear and leave the Space Marines outside of charging range.

Okay, beyond 12", with all that super long range Necron firepower and all. Beyond 12" means stand and shoot bolters, and the return you'll get on those isn't much to write home to the tomb world about.

Wraiths are fickle now and I can't see that changing much. They get a bonus assaulting units in cover, but inability to clear a kill zone and reduce incoming attacks means that they'll be going down that much easier. Pulling off a charge with Flayed Ones, far easier said than done, 6" + 6" is just terribly slow for an assault unit. Their stats aren't great either, they're assault marines - jump packs, and plain assault Marines are pretty middle of the road for a combat unit. They need a monolith and lord to really be effective in 4th, and work by grinding the enemy down; however more brutal combats and easier sweeps is a nerf to them.

Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, Pariahs, and even the C'tan will all be able to run. Having a C'tan jogging alongside a large unit of Warriors will give you a fine way to mulch any Daemon Princes that decide to harass them. Tomb Spyders will free up Necron Lords from Orb-toting duties to get stuck in with their Gaze of Flame and Warscythe.

Running: useless. I fail to see how forgoing assault for D6 extra movement really helps these guys, except C'tan perhaps. All it does is help hang your FO and Pariahs out to dry in front of an enemy army. A screen of flayed ones as an assault deterrent is a joke. Basic Marines would back themselves to kick their asses. Same with I3 A1 Pariahs. Charge, win combat, force about 4 extra armour saves due to outnumbering + fearless. Bye Bye expensive Pariahs.

Tomb Spyder and Lord WBB assisting abilities have no crossover at all so no idea what you are talking about here, seems like you don't really know Necrons at all.

C'tan escorting warriors: doesn't help at all to stop the initial hit from charges, all it is is a revenge option. Yet Necron warrior units are so point heavy, so vulnerable to a first combat turn wipeout, so necessary for claiming objectives and so valuable to preventing a phase out that the deterrent factor isn't really there. Most good players would consider a trade of Daemon Prince for Warrior squad in 5th a good deal.

I'll mention some more on Phase out here as well. The fact that the Necron army offers this alternate way to claim a victory is so much more punishing under PDF rules. If your troops get targetted, so what, it's not the end of the game for you because the burning need to claim objectives isn't there when you have this other option for victory.

Necrons, used well, are used much like any other armies. This use is exemplified by the Eldar: synergy. Several units in a Necron army should gang up on a unit in the other army and go to town, picking the opposing force apart while avoiding return fire. How good of a player you are, and how good of a player your opponent is, will determine the game.

I know how Necrons play thanks. I'm telling you that given players of equal skill, the one wielding the cron army is going to be severly hamstrung by the PDF rules. Also, synergy is harder to pull off with the Necrons, opposed to the Eldar, given your combat options are more limited, you lack ranged heavy/great AP weapons, and your units are so damn expensive that the best synergy only starts to happen at 2000 points.

In terms of a list, I don't have my Necron Codex with me right now, but I'm thinking for 2000pts:

Nightbringer
Necron Lord (Veil of Darkness, Gaze of Flame, Warscythe, Phylactery)
Two Flayed Ones Units
Pariahs
Three Warrior Units
Two Wraith Units
Scarabs
Heavy Destroyers
Tomb Spyder (Claws)
Monolith

Thats 2500+ points given reasonable squad sizes (no single Heavy D/Wraith units, 4 man flayed one squads, etc.)

Leave out the Monolith and Nightbringer for smaller games, 1500pts.

Given you have to also drop another 500 points, and losing the Monolith is a bad move because you will NEED the teleportation and pie plate, you're left with a cellar dweller army.

If you want, we can play a battle using MS-paint to define the board, an online-randomizer for the dice rolls, and so on so we can explore this list under the 5th edition rules properly.

I've already tested my Crons out 'live' and thus have the experience. However it doesn't take a genius to recognise the new combat rules and vehicle rules are a massive nerf to the army.