Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok let us start this one off.

1. Combi weapons. While not an immediate choice the power fist nerf could result in different guns resting in the off hand. I for one have finally found an excuse to take a storm bolter on a vet sgt, but I am also thinking about a combi-melta somewhere.
Combi-meltas are the only combi weapons even remotely worth thinking about, because a solid hit will (very likely) kill a tank, not bad for a 10pt investment, and when you look at a units berhaviour you only get one or two shots out of a melta gun in a game anyway. Anyway I like the idea of a one shot anti tank role to round off a multi purpose tactical squad, I think it will do better in a squad with antio horde weapons like heavy bolters and flamers rather than a squad already loaded with anti vehicle weaponry.
Either way I am happy I took a mix of powerfists and power swords.

2. Blasterfex. So the venom cannon is nerfed, and the barbed strangler and deathspitter doesnt need to roll to hit, nid warriors are suddenly cheaper. You can even take a barbed strangler carnifex as elites. Sure the dakkafex is great but will a barbed strangler hit more of fewer models, quite likely more if you are shooting a good sized horde. The range is excellent Ap and S are better too, the blasterfex comes with scything talons as standard, so it looks a whole lot nastier are a bonus.
Eureka. I have just replaced the Dakkafex.

The main thing I see with the PF nerf is now people have a reason to take PW. The PF still offers alot of versatility. I havn't done the math yet but even with the nerf I think a PF does as much damage as a PW. What the hell, here goes.

Power objects against meqs
PF 3 attacks 1.5 hits. 1.26 wounds = 1.26 dead marines
PW 4 attacks 2 hits 1 wound = 1 dead marine

So there you have it.

Come to think of it that has nothing to do with your post. I'll leave just in case anyone is interested in the math.
So yeah. I'll be taking combibolters on all my PF sergeants.


As for the fexes. A bad scatter can still equal a complete miss. With dakka fexes I average about 6 wounds a volley. You might see it every once in a while but I think people will still take dakka fees unless their ank ability is just though the floor.( which I guess it is.)
How are warriors cheaper though?

gdurant wrote:

Power objects against meqs
PF 3 attacks 1.5 hits. 1.26 wounds = 1.26 dead marines
PW 4 attacks 2 hits 1 wound = 1 dead marine

PF should still be better than PW on Veteran Sergeants. What PF isn't better than anymore is 2 more marines. (15 for Vet, used to be you wouldn't take him otherwise, 15 for 'Fist).

3 Tactical Marines w/ Bolters vs. Veteran Sergeant with Power Fist Against MEQ: Assume 2 bolter shots from each marine before CC, which I think cuts the average low by about 2/3 of a shot, but just for simplicity's sake:
3 Tactical Marines:
6 bolter shots = 4 hits = 2 wounds = 2/3 dead marines
6 close combat attacks = 3 hits = 3/2 wounds = 1/2 dead marines- 7/6 marines killed total ~1.17 Marines
Veteran Sergeant with Power Fist:
1 Bolt Pistol shot = 2/3 hits = 1/3 wounds = 1/9 marine kills
3 Power Fist Attacks = 3/2 hits = 5/4 wounds = 5/4 marine kills total 1.36 marine kills

So the Veteran is marginally (.19 MEQ) better against MEQ's. However, the 3 Tactical Marines are significantly more effective vs. T3 Sv 5+ and somewhat more effective against T3 Sv 4+.

That said, I think we will see more Tac Marines (although we would have anyway because of the way we expect the SM codex to be), and possibly even Heavy Bolters in Tac squads. Although HB fire obviously doesn't win games by itself and Lascannons are as important as ever (right?), fielding a 180+ point Tactical squad and firing only a Lascannon out of it for 1 or 2 turns seems a little ridiculous. Especially if the popularity of horde armies increases, with a HB in a Tac squad there's 8 more Bolters and a Special Weapon whose firepower won't be wasted.

PF are still useful vs

1. MC's
2. IC's
3. Vehicles
4. High toughness units like nurgle.

the pw isn't. plus now you get to take goodie like combi bolters and storm bolters.

gdurant wrote:PF are still useful vs

1. MC's
2. IC's
3. Vehicles
4. High toughness units like nurgle.

the pw isn't. plus now you get to take goodie like combi bolters and storm bolters.

Sorry, I'm not disagreeing. I think Power Weapons on vets are very wasteful. I'm sure Power Fists will stick around because although we'd like to shoot high toughness units before they get into CC, it doesn't always happen. A Veteran Sergeant with a Power Fist and Combi-Melta, although pricey, is pretty damn effective. Assuming the SM codex works like BA/DA, I expect to see 10 man Tactical Squads backed up by a 5 man Tactical Squad with a Veteran Sergeant with Stormbolter and Power Fist for counter assault. If traits are gone, Combi Meltas make 5 man Tactical Squads able tank-hunters again.

This is a great thread.

First, I think you'll be seeing plenty of combi flamers actually. How often do you use flamers? Once at most, so it's a great cheap place to put that one shot flamer (and then you can still have a melta or plasma in the unit).

Second, I still can't imagine not taking the powerfist on vanilla marines. It makes the unit a swiss army knife that no other choice can, even with losing the attack.

Personally, I really want to evaluate how power armor drop pods will do. I think they may make a comeback.

Actually Mauleed with gaunt renaissance and new orks flamers will be in demand.

We are looking at the same data from different angles.

You think meltas in the squad anda combi flamer.
I think flamers in the squad and a combi melta.

The trick is what do you need if you take the standard plasma gun, its not eally a tank killer, and its not anti horde. It all depends on which role is more important. I like the combi flamer, simply because it auto hits. there is nothing worde than a one shot weapon that misses, but flamers are still pissing in the wind against most horde units in the sizes recommended for them; unless you have a lot of them. Wheras 8+2d6 armour penetration followed by +1 on the damage chart has a fighting chance of killing an Av14 tank outright. This can only be good news.

Only problem is that the vets in the new codexes can't take combi-weapons.

Terminizzle wrote:3 Tactical Marines w/ Bolters vs. Veteran Sergeant with Power Fist Against MEQ: Assume 2 bolter shots from each marine before CC, which I think cuts the average low by about 2/3 of a shot, but just for simplicity's sake:

<snip>
How do the Marines get bolter shots off and assault in the same turn? (I'm feeling dense today...)

Viperion

mauleed wrote:This is a great thread.

First, I think you'll be seeing plenty of combi flamers actually. How often do you use flamers? Once at most, so it's a great cheap place to put that one shot flamer (and then you can still have a melta or plasma in the unit).

Second, I still can't imagine not taking the powerfist on vanilla marines. It makes the unit a swiss army knife that no other choice can, even with losing the attack.

Personally, I really want to evaluate how power armor drop pods will do. I think they may make a comeback.

They're already back
clense and purify with the true grit/counter attack traits are an awesome combo

I mix and match my squads, but you can have up to three special weapons to fire.

With nids though, I'm not sure how to deal with the lack of anti tank weaponry. I know swarms are in, but what to back them up with?

Well, all I can say is how it effects my army, the Dark Angels.

Suddenly the Troops as scoring makes Pure Ravenwing and Deathwing Armies, not only viable, but extremely competitive. Ravenwing Bikers coming on from any table edge. Deathwing Assault landing on objectives and daring the opponent to move them.

I also honestly think that Land Raiders will start popping up more often. From my perspective, for the cost of two Predator Annihilators, I can invest in a tank that has much better armor, and is more resistant to sneak attacks from Scout or Infiltrating Tank hunters. Try to dislodge a Land Raider in hard cover. You only loose a minimal amount of fire power, and scoring status is a non-issue between the two options.

I am constantly seeing comments that Horde armies are king now, well, it's time to break out the Whirlwinds, Predator Distructors, and Missie Launcher Armed Devestators (can you imagine the amount of hurt 4 frag missles will deliver to a boyz squad).

Even with the new benefits from hard cover, I don't think a Land raider will be a better option than two annihilators. Resilient doesnt make up for the loss of tactical flexibility.

Well here are the numbers, a Land Raider is gonna cost you the same as two Predators with Lascannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

But the Predator is only a 13-11-10 versus the Land Raiders 14-14-14. What happens when Ork Commandos, War Walkers, or even SM Scouts pop-up behind you and start nailing your rear armor.

Same amount of Lascannons, but the trade of of 12 HB shots versus 3 Twin-linked shots.

So to me, the Predators will still probably be the better choice, but it will be much, much closer now.

And I am just going back to my original point that in a world where tank hunting units could pop up behind you, a vehicle with 14 all around will be appriciated.

Crimson Devil wrote:Even with the new benefits from hard cover, I don't think a Land raider will be a better option than two annihilators. Resilient doesnt make up for the loss of tactical flexibility.

Each dead Annihilator costs you 2KP though. The Land Raider is less of a liability and less likely to give up those KP in the first place.

Right now, only OBELing SW Scouts can come on the back edge, right? Everything else rolls to see if it's left or right side. Which lets you hide tanks in the middle of the board (except against bikes). And you can still use an infantry screen to keep them from being assaulted.

Especially considering that horde armies will see more light and anti-tank will be restricted. Both things suggest a destructor or annihilator. The Land raider is a nut to crack now, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

Fair enough.

I think we'll see more cheap infantry units playing rear guard for tanks in cover. They won't stop everything, but they can create a 6"+ zone around the back to prevent the extra d6 melta shots and charges.

I wonder if Land Raider Spam is the new Falcdar.

Tacobake wrote:I wonder if Land Raider Spam is the new Falcdar.

Nah, VP denial isn't as important now, so marines will struggle to compete with 3-5 Land Raiders plus needing expensive troops.

This is probably a boost to Grey Knights though.

Tacobake wrote:I wonder if Land Raider Spam is the new Falcdar.

I hope not, im at a loss as to how im going to peace out armor as is.

The main theoretical focus shift I am seeing is away from MSU and toward a few hard-hitting, resilient and expensive non-troops and resilient troops.

You want to pack as many points as you can into each KP, while still being flexible enough to win.

So things like a landraider are going to wind up being better than two predators because they're the same victory points gain.

However, I wonder if you might just like to skip either one - they are just too easy to get KPs for, compared to squads of guys.

As a marine army, I am seeing very little reason not to load up on basic marines to use as an anvil, and then a couple very expensive hard-hitting squads to use as a hammer.

When compared to a 10 man assault squad with 2 plasma pistols, a power fist, and furious charge @ 280 or some odd points -- and 2 kpts -- two predators at the same price starts to look pretty crappy for 4kpts.

Another big point for the basic troops is that you can take the apothecary trait, and use large expensive squads protected by apothecaries (e.g. a couple 8 man squads of terminators backed by apoths).

As for thing we don't see now...
Most tau players are excited about using kroot to flank opponents. Seems for the first time Tau have been given a semi offensive assault unit. I have a friend who wants to to start loading them up in devil fish since the 'transports without borders' will be in effect.

Fundamentally I am seeing two main ways to build an army--

1) You can build an army that has lots of troops that score and don't give up killpoints.

2) You can build an army that doesn't give up any killpoints because it just doesn't offer that many.

You can kind of do both with some armies (Plaguemarines, Orks), too, but most armies are going to be relegated to doing one or the other.

Eldar are a good example here in that they don't have very many tough units outside of the troops (Pathfinders) so barring making an army focused entirely on wiping the opponent out, they're going to be focusing on taking a lot of troops.

In summary:
I think the main thing you're going to see is people being much more thoughtful about squadron sizes in general. The KP system really sticks a fork in the MSU approach, and you will really have to evaluate the balance between getting enough killy and being tough enough.

gdurant wrote:As for thing we don't see now...
Most tau players are excited about using kroot to flank opponents. Seems for the first time Tau have been given a semi offensive assault unit. I have a friend who wants to to start loading them up in devil fish since the 'transports without borders' will be in effect.

Squads of 20 kroot will be fantastic flankers, no doubt, particularly with move through cover and fieldcraft.

Squads of 12 kroot in a devilfish will be meat. This is a compellingly bad idea (since devilfish are easy to shoot down, and kroot have poor leadership and armor saves).

gdurant wrote:As for thing we don't see now...
Most tau players are excited about using kroot to flank opponents. Seems for the first time Tau have been given a semi offensive assault unit. I have a friend who wants to to start loading them up in devil fish since the 'transports without borders' will be in effect.

Pathfinders are gold now. Take their devilfish and use it freely, there's no "extra" cost associated.

Here's a YMTC for ya. Can a Pathfinder devilfish make a scout move if it has 12 kroot inside .

Never said kroot in a devilfish was good. I just have eccentric friends is all.
Along with kroot who else becomes useful via flanking?

Scorpions (can they still flank with a serpent?)
Chosen
SM scouts.
Light Infantry guard?
Raven Wing
Scuttling genestealers
stealth suits
the list goes on and on.

Dedicated Transports are discussed on P.70 of the pdf. The text of it is mighty familiar though.

gdurant wrote:Never said kroot in a devilfish was good. I just have eccentric friends is all.
Along with kroot who else becomes useful via flanking?

Scorpions (can they still flank with a serpent?)

Is there a rule that says infiltrators cannot take a transport? Or units that take a transport cannot infiltrate?

Tacobake wrote:Here's a YMTC for ya. Can a Pathfinder devilfish make a scout move if it has 12 kroot inside .

No. The scout ability is only conferred when the scout unit is actually inside the vehicle.

Why are Killpoints the big thing? They only occur in one third of all missions, or am I wrong? I mean if it's a objective-tie, you use the good ol victory point system anyways.

Infiltrators cannot infiltrate with their transport but can sport a flank march with a dedicated one. If the pdf is true...

Like that new strategy, but I wouldn't throw all by balls in it.
Short question: Is the flank march in apoc also random? Or can you plan which side you will march in?

Greets
Schepp himself