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I don't have the leaked pdf, are Killpoints the new VP's?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Nah, you use them in a new mission: total annihilation. You basically only get points for killing. In kill points. HQs are worth 3 points, elites/fast/heavy are worth 2 and troops 1.

In the other mission you win via objectives (controlling them that is, with troops), but in a tie, you calculate the VP like we already do (kind of).

Greets
Schepp himself

People having fun playing 40K


Ok bitter cynacism off now

Woops, i had a misunderstanding of how KP worked

Need to get me that pdf I guess.

So much for theorizing!

Stelek wrote:

Tacobake wrote:Here's a YMTC for ya. Can a Pathfinder devilfish make a scout move if it has 12 kroot inside .

No. The scout ability is only conferred when the scout unit is actually inside the vehicle.

While the devilfish can transport the kroot the transport can only begin the game transporting itsdedicated unit. So when it gets to scout it does so with Pathfinders inside, and cannot enter ther board with kroot inside.

I too think landraiders and other heavy transports are going to come back. Throw a cheap scoring squad in them to dump on the objective last turn and they are great. Run them onto an objective and kill all that approaches, tank shock when necessary

Pathfinder devilish cant scout. Says on the FAQ

Tacobake wrote:
Here's a YMTC for ya. Can a Pathfinder devilfish make a scout move if it has 12 kroot inside .

Answer: No

2 reasons. The first is that a transport bought for a unit can not start the game with another unit inside, so a pathfinder devilfish couldn't start the game with kroot inside. Now some people have pointed out that there might be a way to buy devilfish as a troop choice in and of itself (a claim I find sketchy but I'll roll with). So I present the second rule that states that transports that begin the game with a unit embarked in them that has the scout rule may make a scout move. Since the kroot do not have the scout rule, any transport they start in could not make a scout move.

So back to the real topic of the thread, what will we see in 5th that we don't see now...

1) Large troop squads. These will be much better with the new kill point rules and the scoring unit changes.

2) Fewer special weapons…or at least different ones. Combi weapons sound like they will be showing up more often and las plas squads sound like a thing of the past.

3) Sniper rifles. Rending will actually make these things useful as well as the changes to pin tests (they happen as soon as casualties are removed)

4) Large blocks of elite units. You only get kill points if the squad is dead, so things like 10 man terminator squads look like they might be on the horizon rather than the 2 5 man squads we see now.

5) Less armor. Tanks took a big kick in the teeth when it came to lethality and mobility. They can’t move and shoot anymore so its going to be a lot of pill boxing for them. On the other hand with the damage chart change and cover saves, they are harder to kill so for KP denial armies, they might be good still. So maybe I should just say we will see less tactical movement with thanks.

6) More assault armies. Since all infantry move at the same speed now regardless of if they are fleet or not, I think we will see more assault armies due to the increased ability to actually get there.

7) Rhinos. Now that transports don’t entangle you when they blow up and they are significantly less likely to do damage to you too (you only take hits if a 6+ is rolled on the pen chart), rhinos just got a whole heck of a lot better.

8) Raiders. Ok who am I kidding, no one plays dark eldar but those mythical ones that do can now field raiders again since skimmers block line of sight now and even if they don’t block all of it, the raiders in the back can get cover saves from the ones in the front.

9) Foot slogging horde armies. While the gaunt horde was fairly viable in 4th, I never actually saw it on the battle field. With the new rules, the new orc codex, and similar such factors, I think foot based horde armies will see a lot more use.

10) Land raiders. Currently they really really really really (did I mention really) suck. In the new rules, they might not be so bad. Still a bit expensive, but much less vulnerable.

Phoenix wrote:
10) Land raiders. Currently they really really really really (did I mention really) suck. In the new rules, they might not be so bad. Still a bit expensive, but much less vulnerable.

I don't see where they got from really(x4) to not so bad with the new changes. Honestly...

Other than that I agree with your points. And i think it's great!

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. for what does this bugger stand? <-what's a soapbox?

This is such a good list, I'll use it to apply to my Tau army:

Phoenix wrote:So back to the real topic of the thread, what will we see in 5th that we don't see now...

1) Large troop squads. These will be much better with the new kill point rules and the scoring unit changes.

I'm not sold on large Fire Warrior squads. In fact, I think I'll move from 2 max squads in devilfish to 6 5 man squads. That's because I don't want my troops blocking LoS to my other troops. 6 man bonded squads will let me keep my LoS to all squads while (hopefully) allowing tactical sacrifice of my only scoring units.

Phoenix wrote:2) Fewer special weapons…or at least different ones. Combi weapons sound like they will be showing up more often and las plas squads sound like a thing of the past.

My troops don't get any weapon options. Everybody uses a S5/AP5 gun.

Phoenix wrote:3) Sniper rifles. Rending will actually make these things useful as well as the changes to pin tests (they happen as soon as casualties are removed)

My army doesn't have any sniper weapons. Maybe this will change with a FAQ. Markerlights could help with pinning checks, but IIRC, I already have that ability with the expensive Pathfinder squad needed to make a difference in the LD checks.

Phoenix wrote:4) Large blocks of elite units. You only get kill points if the squad is dead, so things like 10 man terminator squads look like they might be on the horizon rather than the 2 5 man squads we see now.

Most of my elite units can max out at 3. I have one unit that can go up to 6 men. I expect to give up many KPs in future games thanks to the eligible targets change coupled with the allocating hits rules change.

Phoenix wrote:5) Less armor. Tanks took a big kick in the teeth when it came to lethality and mobility. They can’t move and shoot anymore so its going to be a lot of pill boxing for them. On the other hand with the damage chart change and cover saves, they are harder to kill so for KP denial armies, they might be good still. So maybe I should just say we will see less tactical movement with t[h]anks.

Agreed. I'm not sure if I will take tanks or not in 5th. They seem more survivabe from shooting, but aren't throwing out the same amount of firepower and manueverability. All the rule changes seem to do is make Eldar and Tau players pay upgrades for abilities they have now. For example, Star Engines to keep moving fast, Decoy Launchers to get a cover save, multi-trackers to fire more than 1 weapon, etc etc.

Phoenix wrote:6) More assault armies. Since all infantry move at the same speed now regardless of if they are fleet or not, I think we will see more assault armies due to the increased ability to actually get there.

Agreed. My I2 army is not looking forward to the new rules. I suppose I might as well just let them run off *my* board edge since I am not going to be running into assault.

Phoenix wrote:7) Rhinos. Now that transports don’t entangle you when they blow up and they are significantly less likely to do damage to you too (you only take hits if a 6+ is rolled on the pen chart), rhinos just got a whole heck of a lot better.

Agreed. Although I receive plenty of pinned fire warriors when my transports go down due to the reroll failed wounds when moving fast. I'm not sure this will change the use of transports in and of itself though.

Phoenix wrote:8) Raiders. Ok who am I kidding, no one plays dark eldar but those mythical ones that do can now field raiders again since skimmers block line of sight now and even if they don’t block all of it, the raiders in the back can get cover saves from the ones in the front.

I see plenty of raiders when I play against DE. I don't expect to see any more ravagers though. LoS isn't going to make up for the fact that their 3 lances aren't firing often. A 4man scourge squad with splinter cannons are probably going to replace warrior skimmers and ravagers to some extent. Moving the lances to the troop squads will be more likely to happen.

Phoenix wrote:9) Foot slogging horde armies. While the gaunt horde was fairly viable in 4th, I never actually saw it on the battle field. With the new rules, the new orc codex, and similar such factors, I think foot based horde armies will see a lot more use.

Agreed. And my Tau aren't too happy about it. I won't be able to play VP denial. I won't be able to play gun line as several of my units will have blocked LoS when the horde comes in and my poor LD will virtually guarantee a gun line will run off the board. I can't tailor my troops choices to overcome hordes so again I'll likely counter with cheap troops units to serve as speedbumps. The only indirect fire my army has is a special issue wargear item. Since my hammerhead doesn't benefit from using markerlights to improve submunition rounds anymore I'll have to rely on sheer luck to have them do much. I suppose I could spend the ~50 points for a crisis suit with a flamer template. Otherwise I'm SOL when it comes to hordes. I've always struggled against hordes however with Tau so it could just be I'm a crappy player.

Phoenix wrote:10) Land raiders. Currently they really really really really (did I mention really) suck. In the new rules, they might not be so bad. Still a bit expensive, but much less vulnerable.

We'll see. My railguns are still the best weapon against this model, but the run rules, hit allocation, and removing models not eligible to be targeted currently worry more than a 250 point tank. It is a great model and I'd love to see more on the table some day.

Frankly, I love 40K as a mobile firepower game. I really disliked the emphasis of running to the middle of the table and assaulting that was 3rd edition. I see these rumored changes as a return to something similar, it is just that the means of doing so have changed. Instead of squads in transports rushing towards the opponent, it will be large infantry units running across the board (or coming off the side of the table in some armies/missions) relying on LoS and large model count to ensure reaching HTH.

Phoenix wrote:

Tacobake wrote:
Here's a YMTC for ya. Can a Pathfinder devilfish make a scout move if it has 12 kroot inside .

Answer: No

2 reasons. The first is that a transport bought for a unit can not start the game with another unit inside, so a pathfinder devilfish couldn't start the game with kroot inside. Now some people have pointed out that there might be a way to buy devilfish as a troop choice in and of itself (a claim I find sketchy but I'll roll with). So I present the second rule that states that transports that begin the game with a unit embarked in them that has the scout rule may make a scout move. Since the kroot do not have the scout rule, any transport they start in could not make a scout move.

Makes sense.

And yes 40k is fun. I think it's all the

Imperial Guard

close combat command squads? Screened command squads may be inclined to include that power fist wielding commissar or eviscerator wielding priest, or both?

ratlings!

infantry squads that don't have heavy weapons? Gaurdsmen raised from planet 'Rockette'

armored fist squads

sentinels? maybe, if running in front of other vehicles becomes a cover save

leman russes and demolishers

...things we won't be seeing much of anymore

heavy weapons squads

hardened veteran drop troops (lol how many KP can you possibly bleed out)

basilisks... they didnt get much worse, but the other heavy support units got so much better


BTW. IG kill points? Do you get 3 points per sub unit in an HQ platoon? 1 point per sub unit in an infantry platoon? If not, are each of these units scoring? Just one? New IG book will be very soon after 5th ed rulebook IMO.

In 5th, for my IG I plan on running more missile launchers and grenades as the supposed scatter rules make them a lot more viable in my estimation, especially against the more common horde type armies.

Dal'yth Dude wrote: I'm not sold on large Fire Warrior squads. In fact, I think I'll move from 2 max squads in devilfish to 6 5 man squads. That's because I don't want my troops blocking LoS to my other troops. 6 man bonded squads will let me keep my LoS to all squads while (hopefully) allowing tactical sacrifice of my only scoring units.

Your squads don't block line of sight for other models in the same squad. It would seem that the 4 smaller squads would be more of a line of sight issue for the other units in your army than the 2 max squads, but that's just my impression. Do what works for you. I must caution you, each of those small squads gives up kill points when they get wiped out, so you are offering a possible 4 instead of 2. In the end, since its models that are scoring and not squads, the number of scoring models you have is the same either way, just be careful about having them run off the board once they start taking checks due to shooting casualties.

Phoenix wrote:7) Rhinos. Now that transports don’t entangle you when they blow up and they are significantly less likely to do damage to you too (you only take hits if a 6+ is rolled on the pen chart), rhinos just got a whole heck of a lot better.

Agreed. Although I receive plenty of pinned fire warriors when my transports go down due to the reroll failed wounds when moving fast. I'm not sure this will change the use of transports in and of itself though.

They took out the rule for rerolling the wounds for transports blowing up if you are moving fast (or at least I can't find anything of the sort in the leaked pdf). And like I said, its only on a damage roll of 6+ that you even take damage to your guys, blowing up due to being immobolized or due to rolling a 5 on the chart means your guys get out of the transport with no wounds (just a pin check).

Phoenix wrote:9) Foot slogging horde armies. While the gaunt horde was fairly viable in 4th, I never actually saw it on the battle field. With the new rules, the new orc codex, and similar such factors, I think foot based horde armies will see a lot more use.

Agreed. And my Tau aren't too happy about it. I won't be able to play VP denial. I won't be able to play gun line as several of my units will have blocked LoS when the horde comes in and my poor LD will virtually guarantee a gun line will run off the board. I can't tailor my troops choices to overcome hordes so again I'll likely counter with cheap troops units to serve as speedbumps. The only indirect fire my army has is a special issue wargear item. Since my hammerhead doesn't benefit from using markerlights to improve submunition rounds anymore I'll have to rely on sheer luck to have them do much. I suppose I could spend the ~50 points for a crisis suit with a flamer template. Otherwise I'm SOL when it comes to hordes. I've always struggled against hordes however with Tau so it could just be I'm a crappy player.

I would figure that tau would do well against horde armies. All of your troops have a 30" range so you should be able to pour firepower into their front lines from round 1. Things only get uglier when they get close and you can rapid fire. They can't hide or screen their important stuff from smart missiles and you can lob sub munitions into their ranks and be sure to hit something since you scatter instead of rolling to hit. Maybe it doesn't play out as well as I would like to think on the field, but it seems like you should have the tools to deal with it.

Phoenix: Good points. I'm coming to the conclusion that I just suck as a player.

My thinking is that 2 larger units are more likely to block LoS simply because they will consume more area on the table. If I were to add the Devilfish, that would also block LoS. I may run 6 units but if I lose 3 I still have 3 scoring units, right? You may be right though.

I understand that the reroll for penn'ed vehicles aren't in the PDF we all know. I poorly said that I don't see entanglement on marines any more than I do my own lists.

My problem with hordes is I can't kill them fast enough. I could do this more effectively in 4th edition with the rapid fire changes, but I still had issues as a non-moving Tau army will usually end up in HTH turn 2-3. Winning Tau armies move and I don't see how they'll move fast enough to keep out of the reach of hordes. Using the SMS means more points spent on transports. It really is the screen rules that concern me the most when completing against hordes or fast moving assault squads.

For example, a 30 ork squad within 12" of a rapid firing 12 Tau squad will likely remove all orks within 12" (ie charge range). If I understand the rumored rules correctly, the Ork player can simply remove figures from the back ranks (beyond 12") which will ensure the Orks reach HTH whereupon the Fire Warriors melt like a witch in water. I don't see how facing 3-5 of those kinds of blocks will be possible for a gunline with no counterassault capability to compete.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Phoenix: Good points. I'm coming to the conclusion that I just suck as a player.

No one starts out as a great player, it just takes some time and effort to get there. If you keep comming here, you'll get pleanty of help along the way to being better if you want it.

My thinking is that 2 larger units are more likely to block LoS simply because they will consume more area on the table. If I were to add the Devilfish, that would also block LoS. I may run 6 units but if I lose 3 I still have 3 scoring units, right? You may be right though.

A point to note is that in 5ht (according to the pdf that may very well change), non vehicle units that are troop choices are scoring. The only real thing that makes them not scoring is if they break and run. Otherwise, they remain scoring. So if you start with a 10 man unit and you have one guy left at the end of the game...he's still scoring. If you start with 2 squads of 5 and one squad is wiped out and one is reduced to 1 guy, you have 1 scoring unit still. The big differences is that with the 2 squads, you've given up a kill point in the process and your squads have to make break tests more often. On the plus side, you can split their fire and if one gets assaulted, the other doesn't always go down with it. There are arguments for both sides. I would recommend trying them both out and seeing what really works better for you on the field.

Using the SMS means more points spent on transports. It really is the screen rules that concern me the most when completing against hordes or fast moving assault squads.

With the smart missiles, you ignore screening since screening blocks line of sight and the smart missiles don't require line of sight. Seems like these things just got even better.

For example, a 30 ork squad within 12" of a rapid firing 12 Tau squad will likely remove all orks within 12" (ie charge range). If I understand the rumored rules correctly, the Ork player can simply remove figures from the back ranks (beyond 12") which will ensure the Orks reach HTH whereupon the Fire Warriors melt like a witch in water. I don't see how facing 3-5 of those kinds of blocks will be possible for a gunline with no counterassault capability to compete.

You do have a very valid point there. It may just be that orcs are the paper to the tau's rock. I haven't tryed to play that match up so I really can't say.