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In this edition Tyranids are considered top tier.
5th edition will bring some changes.

- Marching mean that CC monstrous creatures might be competitive.
- Venom cannon will no longer kill most vehicles, best you can hope for is an immobilized, or blowing the crap out of the thing and making it useless.
- Screening means that horde armies are viable. Warriors can provide synapse and hide behind gaunts.
- Scuttling gene stealers can pull off wicked flank manurers.
- Genestealers were hurt a little by the rending nerf.
- Two TL deathspitters can be taken on elite fexes.

Big Problems:
Small bugs just aren't that great at holding objectives. They'll die in droves to bolter fire and if they CAN fire back the shooting is weak a best.
Nids also don't have any great ways of dealing with armor. They can handle av 12 okay but AV 14 is nigh invincible.

any other thoughts?

How do twin linked blast weapons, like a twin linked plasma cannon for example work now that they dont have to roll to hit, just scatter . Is it more points for nothing now?

I believe twinlinked templates reroll wound rolls (possibly reroll penetration rolls too but I am not sure).

I think a fex with two TL deathspitters would be viable, since it's S7 and doesn't need enhanced senses anymore.

The thing people forget about the not having to roll to hit though, is that scattering with a small blast template is basically equivalent to BS2. With a large blast template it's not much better.

If you get to reroll pen rolls, two S7 deathspitters would be decent light antitank and decent light antitroop, I think. Possibly

The 24" range sure is attractive.

IMO, Zoans are getting even more useful.

1. They provide a decent medium range anti-tank capability.

2. They can now run.

3.They provide synapse.

4. They can be screened (not sure abiout this one)

5. They still cant grab objectives, but that is now true for any heavy choice, so we dont care.

Why couldn't they be screened? They aren't vehicles nor montrous. Their heads a bit bit funny looking, but they are special tyranids, no need to discriminate them via shooting them first.

I like how my Armies run our with 5th.

Eldar: no change needed
Tyranids: just got better!

Maybe I can even drop EC on Genestealers, but with rending toned down, I need every stealer staying in the fight...

The Broodlord sounds a bit nastier, too. Give him feeder tendrils and he can run (literally now) along his buddies via infiltrate or flank march with re-roll to-hit (good for rending btw).

Greets
Schepp himself

Correct me if I'm wrong but since the death spitters are TL you can reroll scatter. I don't know how viable they are, just bringing it up.

Why couldn't they be screened? They aren't vehicles nor montrous. Their heads a bit bit funny looking, but they are special tyranids, no need to discriminate them via shooting them first.

At the time, I was unsure about the exact rules.

The Broodlord sounds a bit nastier, too. Give him feeder tendrils and he can run (literally now) along his buddies via infiltrate or flank march with re-roll to-hit (good for rending btw).

Yes, he seems better now (for the reasons that you mentionned) but I'm still not sure if it is worthed to drop one tyran for him. Both the flying tyrant and the walking one still good.

I'm not sure if a walking tyrant is up to snuff anymore.
You can gear him up for CC but then he doesn't do much.
As for shooting the VC as nice range and rate of fire but isn't great for anti tank.
Devourers are nice but shoot ranged. Death Spitters seem a little unreliable.

I think the walkrant is great because he denies KPs -- he's very unlikely to die with 2-3 tyrant guard.


He's still great at popping light tanks with a dakkafex/vc -- another reliable guy at putting a glance on something when necessary.

The v4 confiigurations seem to remain good (vc + talons or VC+ devourer).

Yes, the Vc is less good in v5 but the nids still need long range anti-tank capabilitie (the zoans will finish the job later)

With run and 2-3 guards, you have a solid hth unit and a solid synapse unit (winged tyran and broodlord go down more faster)

The Venom Cannon is fine for dealing with vehicles. Cumulative Damage (Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized) will result in Destroyed (Wrecked) vehicles. And it's possible to score one hit kills on Open-topped Vehicles.

gdurant wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but since the death spitters are TL you can reroll scatter. I don't know how viable they are, just bringing it up.

That's what happens when you guide Eldar Support Weapons. eg D-Cannons and Shadow Weavers

Cheap warriors with toxin sacs, deathspitter and scytals FTW. They march behind / amongst gaunts, getting 4+ cover saves (no need for carapace) and shooting a barrage of S6 AP4 templates (no need for enhanced senses...) over the heads of the gaunts at 24". Possibly include one barbed strangler in the mix.

Also, lurking termagaunts with 3+ cover save in woods...

Genestealers with scuttling to come on via flanks for a 13-18" unsafe zone. The broodlord, with no fleet, still gets left on the shelf IMO. It's all about getting the assault the same turn you come on the board.

Antitank will be rough, but gunfex VCs are still S10 and will reliably glance tanks that aren't in cover, until the Zoeys can get into range (screened by gaunts, natch) and unload the pens. Tanks sitting in cover will get their back hatches torn open by scuttling stealers: 6 stealers will get 18 autohits on the charge against an unmoving ground tank (ie one sitting in cover and firing everything), which is three rends with the new rending rules...

Skimmers will still be hard to deal with, though Zoeys and Carnifex barbed stranglers can now pen them on the move. Landraiders will also be tricky, though somewhat vulnerable to stealer assault and Zoey Warp Blasts.

Now that stuff can be screened again, how long until we see a return of Shoot The Big Ones First?

With the rending nerf, stealers can no longer damage a land raider: st4+d6+d3 (if rending) is not enough.

Leto2 wrote:With the rending nerf, stealers can no longer damage a land raider: st4+d6+d3 (if rending) is not enough.

Currently the number of times my Genestealers have killed a Land Raider is:

Zero.

Expected number of times any of my Tyranids will CC a Land Raider to death is:

Zero.

Well, screening goes both ways, just for the record. So blasting warriors behind a gaunt screen won't happen.

And Monstrous creatures can be shot at, even over screens of non monstrous or vehicles.

Stealer can indeed only glance a raider with toxin sacs giving them S5+6(roll)+D3 (rending).

The possibilities I see with a Broodlord and his gang are that you have to move away from them, but if you still want to shoot, you move slower than them. They will get you. In the last edition you could simply move 6" and blast them without any chance to ever get caught (theoretically).

Greets
Schepp himself

Your right, stealers can glance with toxin sacs ( i forgot this option since (imo) it's to expensive on them.

Yeah, the broodlord will be better for sure, but like Iwas saying, I'm not sure that he is enough important to take a tyrant slot.

I dont know if I'm lucky or something, but at the moment, my stealers are vey good agains armor.

Btw, here's a visual about how it is very possible to destroy a land raider with stealers. Just check at the middle-left of the image. We can see that my stealers (green bugs) just destroyed a land raider.

Yes with the prefered enemy buff, the rending nerf has hurt stealers very little.

The real nerf is to venom cannons. Gun fexs are not really very good anti tank anymore.

Zoans are alright i guess but same screen that protects them also prevents them from shooting. They are also very short ranged and vulnerable to hoods etc...

Antiarmor is the puzzle of the moment for Nids to solve in the leaked rules.

I prefer to add toxin sacs to my warriors, the cost is the same as for stealers but warriors with rending bio plasma, followed by rending scything talons get at least a faint chance at killing the new static tanks and the cost per attack is much lower for warriors.

I was thinking for my HQ using a Scream tyrant with Strangler and TL devourers and 3 Guard. Combine with 3 Scream Zoanthropes, and 2 VC/BS Fexes, and that's alot of pinned units, with the buff to templates.

Granted, this is assuming that the rumored cumulative -1 to pinning for every extra casualty caused is there too.

Does anyone think that being able to run will make close combat carnifexes viable, or is this just wishful thinking on my part?

Stelek wrote:

Leto2 wrote:With the rending nerf, stealers can no longer damage a land raider: st4+d6+d3 (if rending) is not enough.

Currently the number of times my Genestealers have killed a Land Raider is:

Zero.

Expected number of times any of my Tyranids will CC a Land Raider to death is:

Zero.

I killed a Land Raider with a Ripper in CC once... I miss mutations.

Does anyone think that being able to run will make close combat carnifexes viable, or is this just wishful thinking on my part?

They certianly are worth a second look. however with run they are now 3rd turn (as opposed to 4th turn) assault units.
Still a bit slow for a unit with no screening and still meat for power fists.

Though HtH fexs might make good cheap screens for stealers to follow behind....

Longshot wrote:I believe twinlinked templates reroll wound rolls (possibly reroll penetration rolls too but I am not sure).

Yes, but GW doesnt describe the small and round blast template as a 'template'. You reroll scatter with a twin linked scattering weapon.

Sorry you cannot replace a Dakkafex with two twin linked deathspitters. It costs 115pts without any other upgrades, and the elites cap is less than 115pts.

However I do intend to take a barbed strangler and scything talons for 113pts.
One 36" ranged S8 pie is good for me. You have a good rerach for those units that can avoid your horde, and don't have to worry about where the shot scatters so much.

New Tyranid Hotspots. My theories.

H.Q.

1. Fltyrant. There is nothing wrong with it, so it will remain, 2x scytal and 2x devourer versions both extant.

2. Broodlord. With feeder tendrils as standard equipment. When it can run, there is little excuse not to have one.

The walking tyrant and guard will be relegated to dedicated choir lists, and those in existing armies that already have the models and wont replace them. They have not lost any potency, but screened warriors now do the same job for less.

Elites.

1. Warriors. Outfitted with deathspitter and scytalons 26pts basic, with biomorphs added on as points allow. Cheap with a S5 template and 3 attacks warriors form a shooty base for your line.

2. Dakkafex. If it aint broke....

3. Blasterfex. Barbed strangler and scytalons. Cheap and complementary to the dakkafex, both have their roles.

Troops.

1. Genestealers. 20pts basic with scuttlers and feeder tendrils as standard, only Broodlord retinue omit both these upogrades. One or two small broods of genestealers without scuttlers will for feeder tendril 'synapse' for the second wave of a warrior heavy army otherwise genestealers willl be held in reserve. Add 4pt carapace to taste.

2. Hormagaunts. Screening is good, but getting into close combat sooner and blocking fire for the second wave ias a nif tactic that wont dry out.

3. Ripper swarms. Rippers are the new gaunts, 10pts basic or 14pts leaping. Because of the run rule there is no advantage in taking spinegaunts over rippers except in lists without TMC's. Rippers get a cover save and are resilient to all firepower except S6+ guns, flamers and large templates. The instant death and small targets rule can hurt them however if you have TMC's your opponent simply cannot afford to direct S6 or better shooting at rippers. Flamers are short range weapons any of your ablative bugs are going to have to run through, and will likely outdistance and large templates will be better fired at the second wave behind the screen. Because of the 40mm base rippers are actually more resilinnt to small blasts than gaunts in 5th as they can afford proper spacing.
Against small arms fire, and in close combat your rippers are far superior to gaunts in a per point and per base level.

4. Termagants/Devourergaunts. I think we need to take a second look at these, if rippers are taking up the ablative role it pays to by a better quality of bug for shooty gaunt swarms.

F.A.

1. Raveners. Now you can screen them before their mad rush raveners make a perfect second wave unit.

H.S.

1. Zoanthropes. With warp blast as standard. Nids will need the firepower of the warp blast to counter venom cannon nerf They can now get closer more consistenly with zoanthropes so the short range is no longer a handicap. I see these as mandatory.

2. Carnifex. Barbed stranglers and/or deathspitters on close combat capable monsters, talonms on remaining arms. Chitin, as normal, but now with tusks and maybe a mace tail. The question of whether to run or shoot will be taken on a turn by turn basis.

I would add a Trygon to list of viable H.S. choices, but it isnt strictly in the codex, evwen though it is legal for standard games in one detachment.

Armies.

Inhuman wave.
First rank of rippers followed by the second rank of broodlord and retinue, one feeder tendril stealer unit and massed deathspitter warriors and raveners. Zoanthropes take rearguard. Steamrollers the enemy under a tide of minor attacks, deathspitters andv then a gheneral pile in. Zoanthropes and rending deal with tanks.

Pincer.
Scutling stealers arrive on whichever flank fate chooses, the mandatory deployment consists of hormagaunts, screened warriors and Raveners trying a forward rush to tie up units for when the steaslers arrive. Flyrant in reserve.

Nidzilla Mk2.
Massed rippers followed by 2x dakkafex and 3x blasterfex, warriors as H.Q., zoanthropes for tank killing and flyrant. Whichever carnies end up H.S. get chitin and tusks.




What do you think of this.

Pretty good summary there.

A few things though.

Rippers can't scuttle so they are not a good screen for scuttle stealers. Also with their str 6+ and template weakness 5pt spine guants may well be the better screen in any case.

Venom Cannon nerf hurts big time but i don't see Zoans as giving enough anti armor to allow us to replace the VC on the 2 remaining sniper fexs. though weakened VC BS snipers fexs remain I think.

Also Zoans running with the gaunts suffer from being blocked by the same screen that protects them, while the Sniper fex's can shoot over head.

Rippers are not there to screen stealers except the broodlord retinue, which is supporting a line of advancing warriors and not scuttling.

The scuttling stealers are in reserve and enter on the flanks of the opponents deployment zone. No screening can help them, but running scuttlers can get into combat and tie up things for the stealer pincer move to make the deathblow.

You are correct on the Zoans being blocked except that they are there to fire on tanks, so they fire over the screen. As they are running behind the wave most of the time thety will be closing for the 18" blast. You will have to suck up tank firepower until then with gun fexes or not. Frankly I think they are too expensive just to stun tanks.

Scuttlers can come on short board edges? I thought only infiltrators could do that... Also the edge is randomly assigned I believe, meaning the stealers could be high and dry when they do come in. I would much rather scout them and get turn 2 assault myself.

I see your point about shooting tanks over the screen, nice idea...


Here is a list based on your ideas..

3 zoans with blast and scream 195

1 Dakka fly rant 196

3 units of 3 ravenors w rending 360

10 rippers 100

10 rippers 100

12 Gene Stealers w Feeders 204

12 Gene Stealers w Feeders 204

12 Gene Stealers w Feeders 204

8 Gene Stealers w Feeders 136

total 1699

I Still think it's short on anti tank and perhapses not enough synapse for the ravenors...