Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is the carapace doctrine worth taking to give Imperial Guardsmen a 4+ save?

I guess that this depends on the build of the army list, but I just wanted to get people's impression of this Doctrine in general.

I tried this but still found that they died just as quick. Spend points on more troops etc...

Jeff

It is generally considered a waste of points, because most armies have a lot of squads and it adds up fast.

If you dont uparmour everyone the opponent cherry picks what units fire at what.

The biggest gype of the carapace armor is that you have to pay 20pts per squad, regardless of the size of the squad. So a command squad with 5 models still pays the same as a full squad of 10 models.

On another note, I recently started my 40king again... but I can't find the box I stowed the rule books in.... So if you see them, give me a call please.

Hmm... I believe I've posted on this topic about a thousand times, so rather than writing out my responce again and again, lemme find one of my previous posts... hold on... Ah! Here it is:


Special Equipment:

The Special Equipment section is a great example of what GW is always failing at - great concept, bad execution. The idea of giving squads a bonus for a few points is fantastic, but the fact that you have to apply which ever ones you choose to your entire army makes them prohibitive. If you applied them on a platoon by platoon basis, then they'd work, but they don't.

To add insult to injury, most of these you will never use anyway as they're junk options.

...

Cameleoline & Carapace Armour: I'm going to lump these two together as they're the only two Special Equipment Doctrines you'll ever take so must be compared to one another pretty closely.

Cameleoline is an exceptional Doctrine and is truly the only worthwhile Special Equipment Doctrine. Cameleoline is a prime example of playing towards a strength rather than to a weakness. It can get a bit pricey though as you have to give it to everyone. Cameleoline also has a good place in Mechanised forces, where model counts are smaller and therefore each individual Guardsman becomes slightly more important. You'll have less squads so you'll want them to survive for longer. Guard rely on cover saves more than anything, so Cameleoline enhances that meaning that your few troops survive for longer, perfect for a Mechanised force.

Carapace Armour is extremely expensive, but does make your guys immune to Bolters. If you are playing an all Drop Troop army and you intend to Deep Strike your entire army whenever you get the chance, then Carapace Armour can come in handy, otherwise stick to Cameleoline.

Now, to compare the two:

When looking at Doctrines like Carapace Armour and even cheaper ones like Cameleoline, always weight the benefits of having 30 men with 4+ armour saves (240 points before weapons) vs having 40 men with 5+ saves (also 240 points before weapons). As I've said in the past, most Guard players will opt for the 'more men' option because it's more beneficial to have a bigger model count than expensive Guardsmen.

Another reason I don't take Carapace Armour is because, like Hardened Fighters, taking Carapace Armour is playing to a weakness rather than a strength. Guard are weak, Guard are expendable. Guard belong in cover. Carapace Armour increases their armour save when most of the time Guard are taking cover saves not armour saves. It's a 33.33% increase in the cost of the squad to make up for a weakness in the Guard army.

Now, as I said, throwing points at a weakness in the hope that the weakness will 'go away' once each Guardsman gets expensive enough is a really bad idea. What you should be doing is putting points towards your strengths. Guard, as I said above, should be in cover. Guard often rely on the strength of the cover they are in, getting nice 4+ cover saves against whatever evil nasty guns the enemy can fire against them. So, what do you do? Well, for half the cost of Carapace Armour you can give them Cameleoline. This is an example of throwing points at a strength rather than a weakness. You're in cover already, so why pay 20 points for an increased armour save? Pay half that and get an increased cover save - something you're using all the time - and make your squads even tougher (3+ in 4th Ed with 4+ now being the standard).

It's also far easier to weigh up the benefits vs costs with Cameleoline than it is with Carapace Armour:

5 Squads w/Cameleoline = 350 points before weapons = 50 models with a 3+ cover save.
6 Squads w/o Cameleoline = 360 points before weapons = 60 models with a 4+ cover save.

I'll leave it to you to work out what you like more.

Carapace Armour is a Doctrine you should avoid unless you're doing that All Drop Troops army. Cameleoline is a fantastic Doctrine that should be taken if you can justify the cost. 10 points a squad will catch up to you, and if you find yourself spending over 100 points on it you must take a fresh look at your army and decide if an increased cover save is worth more than an extra 20+ men.


And that's all I have to say on this topic for the time being.

BYE

As you stated carapace armor widely depends on the actual build of your army, and in general the only way it is worth it is if you run an elite guard army. That being said the only two ways I can see it being worth the points would be to either take grenadiers or if you ran drop troops. With grenadiers you can take 2x special weapons, bs4, ap5 weapons, pre-measure distance, better LD, and get carapace armour. Otherwise id say it makes far more sense to run cameleoline.

Almost every IG army i see that hugs cover becomes a biznitch to take out when you add in camoline a leadership boost of somekind(either vox net or nearby officer) and iron dicipline. you can shoot at them all day and they never break, get marine like saves and have 3 times times your numbers.

All of which you need with the flashli.... I mean lasfire small arms.

Is it worth taking?
Thats a very strange way to put it as there isn't any previous value that's applied.
I would suggest figuring out how you want your guard to play and then select doctrines that go accordingly.

In my opinion, the most useful, HANDS DOWN Doctrine is... Chem-Inhalers.
No negative modifiers to LD that includes HtH. That is incredibly useful as guard die a lot, hence a lot of morale checks, hence not taking modifiers is huge. In low morale armies I find you lose troops to running away and getting massacred in HtH.

I find looking at the doctrines as offensive/defensive helps me to determine which ones i want to take on what day.

My favorite random combo is Mechanized+Jungle fighters. Flamer+Hvy Flamer. Jump out of a tank, get a 4+ in the woods, and burn em out. Came real close to winning an RTT with em.

I would also recommend that you put together a list with a play style in mind and have those critique it.

Yea Carapace not a good idea unless you need points eaten up fast... Camoline with a gun line is brutal....untell one guy gets into combat ......But i like Chem inhalers personally great upgrade with Close Order Drill with my Deep Strikeing Guard it works well