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I run a Imperial Guard list trying to make them Death Korps of Krieg as many of you have probley read my post in the past.

I'm thinking of running 3 8 man Death Rider squads (Rough Riders) but debating that as opposed to 2 Hell Hounds and a Death Rider Squad... Which to take? I am very fluff based in my armies unfortunately even including Commissars...

Dont cry. Death Korps is the best list you can get for IG, no question.

As far as doctrines are concerned you get Iron Discipline, that is all that really matters. Rough Riders are a good bonus. However what really makes the list even above other armiers with Iron Discipline is the ability to replace your lacklustre Elites choices with superb Heavy Mortars.

Have you got Heavy Mortars in your list. Account for therm, and your heavy support. Your advantage is that you can spam out some pie plates while still keeping your heavy support free, so fill up there, no IG army should go light on heavy support, it makes your list work. Once you have paid for both and got some mandatory H.Q and troops work out how much you have left for Fast Attack.

The good news for IG, or bad news from a preparation point of view, is that all the fast attack options are decent and worth taking.

Rough Riders are the best counterattack you can get, take 6-10 give them all lances. the only thought (other than whether you can take them at all) is whether you go cheap at 11pts each or take a vet sgt with power weapon (and lance).

Hellhounds are nasty, and Sentinels are cheap mobile heavy weapons and en effective tarpit against horde.

I think the main issue is how many visible tanks you have, another reason to prepare your heavy support first. Indirect artillery doesn't count but Russes are good to screen your rough riders (until they get screened by the guardsmen in 5th) also Hellhounds have good synergy with Russes as the more Av you place on the table the better your army works.

If you don't take many tanks take Sentinels instead, or nothing, or wait until 5th edition for screenable Rough Riders. Both Hellhounds and Rough Riders on their own will get slaughtered before they are much help. Sentinels will too, but are potentially plentiful, expendible and cheap enough to absorb the losses.

Either way buy Heavy Mortars first, with them you are a very hefty stone to the ork scissors.

On the subject of Guard fast attack choices what does everyone think about sentinels? I am playing a mechanized list (lots of Chimeras and Leman Russes) and I was thinking about adding a few sentinels in to squeeze in a few more mobile heavy weapons without having to pay the full points for another squad plus Chimera of having to buy a very vulnerable fire support team for my HQ. I've messed around with them in one game and was pretty impressed. The fact that they always start on the board plus the scout move came in very handy.

What does everyone else think about these guys and in particular their usefulness in a mechanized list?

Sentinels are good for mechanised as screening units either to be screened or to screen depending on the S of whatis out there. They are also a good tarpit if the enemy is short on powerfists.

If you want Sentinels in a mechanised list for firepower, pay extra for lascannon. You are paying a lot for your Chimera and they provide plenty of medium strength shooting, while you ability to take squad lascannon drops. Sentinels become your cheapest lascannon options, but also your most vulnerable. It all depends how many you can afford after your Chimera units and your crucial heavy support options.

Orlanth wrote:Dont cry. Death Korps is the best list you can get for IG, no question.

Please quantify this statement.

BYE

If you can't do that, at least qualify it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Dont cry. Death Korps is the best list you can get for IG, no question.

Please quantify this statement.

BYE

I did. Death Korps have IIRC seven doctrines, six in the IG codex and one from Forgeworld. Here are two critically important ones.

elite Heavy Mortars - unique to them making crap IG elites slots into multiple indirect fire pie plate emitters.
Iron Discipline - best doctrine, the only 'must take' though shared with others armies.

Rough Riders - Decent but not essential, they get an honourable mention (except when mentioning Forgeworld prices) as they help rather than hinder.
Heavy Weapons Platoons - Good if you want an all infantry army, excellent synergy with heavy mortars as you can replace, up to a point, the artillery tanks while retaining an entirely infantry army and still take up to 3 heavy weapons platoons.

The other weaker doctrines are wasted slots, but are not mandatory for any unit so they dont actually weaken the list. Die Hards and Hardened Fighters are worthless, Stormtroopers are near worthless ansd have value only as a change in a static and potentially 'boring' army, though Grenadiers would have been better as they wont take away an elites slot you need for your light artillery.
Past threads on IG doctrines place them into three categories, Iron Discipline, those possibly worth taking and those you should never take. In general any army without Iron Discipline as one of its doctrines should be played vanilla.
Hence Death Korps have adequate standard doctrines, the addition of Heavy Mortars places them in their own category above all other doctrine guard options.
If Spaceworlverine suddenly develops a taste for Ogryn models or otherwise wants a change he can play his Death Korps vanilla and still take heavy mortars as heavy support like everyone else.

H.B.M.C. your quality of advice regarding guard is well known, so if you beleive I am in error here please explain why.

I think that in an infantry and indirect fire heavy army, benefits most from the rough riders. As a defensive list, the sheer volume of indirect plates you can throw at him will force him to come to you. Typically when an enemy sends out people (Skimmers, Fast Attack, Deep Strikers) they will be units that are pretty elite. Rough riders are at their best when fighting elite units like Terminators or Immortals. A bit of softening up with shooting, followed by a charge of one or two rough rider squads can see off most threats. I'd say rough riders over hellhounds in this list.

Thanks, Also the DKoK are not legal in tournament play which is what I'm aiming towards. I play for fun although I know I wont have a lot of fun with at a tournament with some armies out there because I am playing a less competative army but I just love to game and have a good time. Even if I face the Eldar Mech army from I dont care. Diffrent people have a diffrent out look on gaming. But theres no problem in asking what others think with the Death Rider vs Hell hound. I always take advice from some of the other gamers on the boards because I may have over looked something.

Death Korps are always legal in tourney, as standard IG, or Death Korps IG doctrines. You will lose the Forgeworld abilities in some tourneys though.
However if you dont mind me asking, if are not after their nice toys why do you want Death Korps?

As far as Deathrider vs Hellhound, like I posted in my original reply it depends on what else you are taking. Rerally we need to see you troops and heavy support, which are more important, so you can tailor the correct fast attack to help you. That decision doesn't exist in a vacuum.

I love there fluff, I dont play to cheese out and win, I play to have fun/competative to a extent as well as being able to look on the table and say wow that looks awesome. Also there figures are outstanding.

I think the Death Korps list is fun and fluffy, but the best list out there? No heavy weapons in line squads, more expensive standard guardsman and limited tanks detracts just as much as the Heavy Mortars, 6+ save for RR's and preliminary bombardment helps.

The no heavy weapons only occurs in the IIRC Siege of Vraks list.

The isolated heavy mortars entry, not in Siege of Vraks, doesnt have that disadvantage. They are listed as: a battery of 1-3 heavy mortars is HS at 50pts each in standard IG, and can be taken as elites in Death Korps armies.

So if you are not on Vraks you can have lascannon, and heavy mortars as the Vraks book doesnt disenfranchise the standard Codex entry.

Forgive my ignorance but where did you find the Heavy Mortars entry other than in Imp. Armor V?

Hmmm. I always find threads talking up Iron Discipline to be informative.

Drop Troops, Sharpshooters, and Light Infantry over ID every day. Death to the enemy! Not 'sending a son home to Momma'!

No one in their right mind will allow you to play the FW rules, they're not allowed in GW tournaments because they aren't playtested they're just mad thoughts from the FW team.

And this from GW, themselves known for extremely poor playtesting.

At best, Death Korps is a viable list as it exists.

It is not 'the best' by any means. Mech lists will run you over. It is quite amusing watching the riders charge flame-bake sisters rhinos cause there's too many vehicles and not enough anti-tank in DKoK.

At worst, DK is a alternative list relying heavily on FW rules to produce a competitive list. Since those rules are banned at most tournaments worthy of the name 'tournament' I'd say it's quite likely you are better served making up your own rules using the doctrines and subbing in the Death Korps models where appropriate.

Whitescar wrote:Forgive my ignorance but where did you find the Heavy Mortars entry other than in Imp. Armor V?

Forgeworld released downloadable rules.

Stelek wrote:Hmmm. I always find threads talking up Iron Discipline to be informative.

Me too. If you want to know more HBMC and Janthkin summed it up very well why Iron discipline is 'mandatory' for any choice of five doctrines. Do a search for the old doctrine threads.

Stelek wrote:Drop Troops, Sharpshooters, and Light Infantry over ID every day. Death to the enemy! Not 'sending a son home to Momma'!

Drop Troops. Ok - they can be very very good, if you take the right second donctrines. ALWAYS take special weapons squads with them. Drop Troops with demo charges > drop troops without.
Sharpshooters give Bs3.5 good for 10pts in an anti tank squad, otherwise forget it. I would take this only if I had the slot remaining and anti tank squads, its not a lemon choice though. I give you that.
Light Infantry is another potentially good one, but generally incompatible with Drop troops unless you want to split up your army. However a good IG infantry list is a static list, all this rerolling movement isnt too much use if you want to sit back with heavy weapons. And replacing your precious lascannon slot with a sniper rifle if outright folly. For a better light infantryman take Cameleoline instead. I saw a very shooty Tau army bounce off cameleoline guard in buildings, they are potentially tougher to crack than marines.

In any event, you will always have room for Iron discipline with any of those three taken. The weakness of guard is their rekowned ability to run away. Iron Discipline deals with this major problem in a very cost efficient manner. Also in a nutshell: falling back squads dont get to fire their lascannon anymore. With Iron Discipline they do.

Stelek wrote:No one in their right mind will allow you to play the FW rules, they're not allowed in GW tournaments because they aren't playtested they're just mad thoughts from the FW team.

GW dont allow Forgeworld in tournaments because they are incompetent and for no other reason. Most Forgeworld stuff is overpriced in the rules as much as the models, there are very few exceptions. Namely Heavy Mortars, Vanquishers, Trygons and Cyclops, and none of those I would put to be underpriced. Had they allowed Forgeworld access to tourneys it would sell more.

Stelek wrote:At best, Death Korps is a viable list as it exists.

It is not 'the best' by any means. Mech lists will run you over. It is quite amusing watching the riders charge flame-bake sisters rhinos cause there's too many vehicles and not enough anti-tank in DKoK.

At worst, DK is a alternative list relying heavily on FW rules to produce a competitive list. Since those rules are banned at most tournaments worthy of the name 'tournament' I'd say it's quite likely you are better served making up your own rules using the doctrines and subbing in the Death Korps models where appropriate.

I would agree, but if you take Death Korps the lack of tourney access will already have beern thought through; Death Korps are way too expensive an investment to simply blindly collect.


In any rate we are straying far off topic, so this is my last word on this thread.

Orlanth wrote:

Whitescar wrote:Forgive my ignorance but where did you find the Heavy Mortars entry other than in Imp. Armor V?

Forgeworld released downloadable rules.

Which if I'm not mistaken, the downloadable rules are experimental and are eclipsed by the relevant Imperial Armor book. If this is the case then they are an Elite choices in a standard IG army and not just for a Vraks list.

Is this so?
Then I have to withdraw my words, with regards to the best IG list. It will also mean that Cadians > Krieg, as they have a far better range of core doctrines. maybe this was what H.B.M.C. was getting at, he never responded so -?

If I can have elite heavy mortars in my Cadian army I will be very very happy.

ive heard different things as far as the legality of FW rules. SOme places say its cool with some exceptions, but I cant speak for the tournament circuit. Also, this is what is cool about apoc. Almost anything goes.