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A buddy of mine plays orks in a rather orky fashion - he doesn't much care for min-maxing and just takes what he likes. Unfortunately, he likes massive hordes of boyz, so his army core consists of little to no vehicles, but 2 mobs of 30 boyz and a mob of 20 or so stormboyz.

Now, I play swarm 'nids with a focus on close-combat, but with the new ork codex I feel like... what's the point? I can't out-swarm an ork player, and point-for-point, his boyz are vastly superior to the tyranid point equivalent, the termagaunt. I love fielding hormagaunts, but they cost twice as much as his boyz, with less attacks. All other close-combat units feel like overkill. Genestealers rending ability is great, but kind of wasted against footsloggers with a 6+ armor save. Same goes for raveners or close-combat warriors. Last time I played, I took a winged cc-tyrant with me, only to have it get killed by an energy klaw in the second round of fighting.

So, I've been looking for ways to counteract the horde. So far I've come up with using a winged tyrant with 2x TL-Devourers, a sniperfex with barbed strangler and a group of warriors armed with the same to thin out the ranks, but it's not enough. I feel as if my close-combat troops are hopefully outclassed, and the only thing I've got going for me is speed. Surely, there must be something I'm missing. Right?

luebbi,

just played a game against the bugs over the weekend.

he played a mostly MC list
Flyrant
Shooty tyrant
2 elite fex
2 heavy fex
1 zoanthrope
2 squads genestealers
1 squad gaunts

I took
warboss on bike
big mek
15 lootas
3 trukks of boyz
11 bikes
20 stormboyz
battlewagon

his gaunts (30) got massacred by 11 bikes due to their good shooting then assault.
his genestealers ate up 2 of the trukk squads entirely, 1/2 a mob of stormboyz. I'm pretty sure they made their points back

the fex's throwing down that non scattering large template wiped out my stormboyz and pinned my bikes.

in the end I did win by like 300 points but it was damn bloody. his zoanthrope didn't have offensive spells.. if it had I probably would have lost. his only play mistake I feel.

genestealers are good. they can clear a killzone before the orks get to attack at all.

if I were you.. increase the shootyness by upping the monsterous creature count and hold the stealers and such as counter assault. or send in a squad or two as shock troops.

NaZ

2 words...Psi Scream. If you can work out the psi chior with your nids (several zonethropes with psi scream and a tyrant with it too) he's going to be makeing all his leadership tests on a significantly reduced number. This will help you out in a couple of ways. First, it means if you win hand to hand with something like steelers, the orcs are virtualy gaurenteed to break. It also means you can effectively pin them with barbed stranglers from both fexes and from warriors.

Phoenix wrote:2 words...Psi Scream. If you can work out the psi chior with your nids (several zonethropes with psi scream and a tyrant with it too) he's going to be makeing all his leadership tests on a significantly reduced number. This will help you out in a couple of ways. First, it means if you win hand to hand with something like steelers, the orcs are virtualy gaurenteed to break. It also means you can effectively pin them with barbed stranglers from both fexes and from warriors.

I thought orks don't take LD tests unless they've got 10 or less models?

They don't, you have to kill 20 models in a 30 man mob to force a ld check.

If you want to out mob orks you need 192 4pt spinegaunts.
that six 32 man broods. For 768 pts

Barbed stranglers on you gunfexes help too. If he's not taking vehicles then shoot into his mobs.

Spinegaunts cost 5 points per model. I prefer Termagaunts though, because the +1S and re-roll to wound actually means they aren't completely rubbish, while Spinegaunts are nothing more than mobile walls in my experience. I actually had a bit of luck with using my termagaunts to shoot up the boyz last time we played.

Um, shootaboytz will outshoot termagaunts and range to 18"

You need at least a couple of Dakkafexes and a flying Tyrant with x2 TL Devourers. That should kill about 20 boys a turn and even things out for you.

If you give 'em all 2+ saves your opponent will soon be screaming bloody hell that he can't beat your Tyranids.

ahh thats what massed klaws are for

yeah.. you need as many fex as you can cram into your army. its brutal to deal with. but I managed better than I expected to.

NaZ

I think barbed stranglers and devourers are the big deal with shooting. For hand to hand, you have two advantages: Your guys are faster, in both initiative and movement, and you have higher strength.

If you hit him with stealers you should make a horrible mess of a 30 strong mob. Just make sure you hit him so you're sure you'll kill the nob in the first round. Hourmies backed up by something else should do a number on big mobs too. Beware the power claw nob. He is our answer to your MCs. MCs should not go near a mob in close combat until it has been whittled to below 12 models by your other broods.

Yeah, using killzone sniping to take out klaw nobs is a good idea. Looks like Stealer-backed Dakkafexes are your best bet.

you could model one strangleweb armed model for each brood of gaunts. its legal and that way you can at least slap down one flamer template per brood to take maximum advantage of the killy stuff. also... you could think about taking some ripper swarms with extended carapace. they are cheap and they take a while to kill. while he deals with killing these cheap tar pits you can focus on killing his more important stuff.

Savnock,

What do you mean by killzone sniping to take out Klaw nobs???
Could you explain....

Darth Balls: "Kill-zone sniping" is local jargon for killing everything in a unit that might be able to attack back. All you need to do is co-ordinate your movement phase movement, shooting, and assault movement so that your troops assaulting enemy units end up in positions where their attacks overwhelm the models that are engaged in close combat and thus either kill them by volume or use torrent of blows to pick out so-called 'hidden' models.

It's a great way to control the enemy in CC - especially Orks with their poor saves. It takes careful manuvering to pull off, but you can isolate whole sections of an enemy unit through kill-zone sniping.

Unfortunately, this won't work in the (rumored) 5th edition. So enjoy it while you can!

Actually I think that something similar might work in 5th edition. Although casualties aren't necessarily selected from engaged models, only models that are engaged at the beginning of the combat will be able to fight. This emphasizes the necessity of careful manoeuvering; to either avoid getting engaged with the harder-hitting members of the unit or to maximize the number of attacks against the unit so that the unit is an entire 'kill-zone'. In the latter case the distribution of one hit per model means that you may inflict enough hits on the unit so that dangerous models have the opportunity to fail at least one saving throw. Considering the quality of Ork saving throws this might work if you have enough attacks.

In terms of Tyranids backing up your heavy hitters like Carnifex and Genestealers with expendable assault troops like Hormugaunts to load on the attacks. The Hormugaunts move in and thin out the enemy troops, thereby allowing the lower initiative but harder hitting creatures to smash the tougher stuff left over like Nobz with Powerklaws. And remember to give your Carnifex a +1I Adrenal Gland so it hits before those Powerklaws!

I have to agree with Yakface on taking Dakkafexes. However you want swarm nids so you are trying to avoid taking 'unfair' numbers of fexes, yes?

If not go with the suggestion and erode him with massed Dakkafex attacks. The ork lack of armour save will really hurt against this, as its the Dakkafex's only weakness. Its clearly the best way.

Some alternatives if you want to avoid massed 'fexes:

1. One or two barbed strangler 'fexes, or warriors with same, and deathspitters.

2. Rippers, you CAN out horde him if you add enough. At 3.3pts per wound they are great for tying up orks, he has big mobs so you can avoid the klaw by charging in some rippers alongside the gaunts/stealers of your choice. Thus keeping the rippers out of klaw contact.

3. Biovores. Actually suprisingly good at anti horde.

Orlanth wrote:I have to agree with Yakface on taking Dakkafexes. However you want swarm nids so you are trying to avoid taking 'unfair' numbers of fexes, yes?

Exactly. I've been playing against this guy for 10 years now, we usually don't try to out-cheese each other. We're both at 1.000 points right now, and I'm already packing two monstrous creatures, I think a second carnifex would raise some eyebrows at that point level

The dakkafex is indeed great, though. Last time we played I took one and also gave him spinebanks for an ungodly amount of fire. For my new army list, I use a standard sniperfex instead, though, because I want to try the barbed strangler some. I've got one with the fex and another with the warriors. We'll be playing again this sunday, I'll see how it pans out.

If you give your hormagaunts toxin sacs you might find them to be surprisingly more effective.

20 S3 Hormies on the charge kill just over 8.
20 S4 Hormies on the charge kill 12.5

33% improvement for 20% more points. They're fast enough to be sure to charge. You'll notice it, believe me, and hopefully the I4 will give them an edge.

200 Spinegaunts ... cost 1000pts. no more orks.
i prefer 100 Termagaunts +1S, re-roll to wound and they come back over and over... cost 900pts
100 hormagaunts with toxin sacs ... cost 1200pts and do nothing if the ork are in cover. pick your gaunts very carefully

Yes in my experiences with the nids it is simple Genestealers with scything talons and implant attacks if he has his hordes stay together when he attacks you you jsut go from 1 to the next with you ungodly amount of attacks that inflict 2 wounds per hit

btw if you throw in a broodlord thing just get inhumanly destructive against anything

I agree with scything talons, as orks dont have enough rerlasible shooting to cut down youir stealers before they get into combat. The shooting they do have is horribly effective, but you can screen against the odd unit. stealers should be able to get through gun range more easily against orks than with other races, thus combat upgrades have a chance to kick in over larger broods.

Its still a tad risky though and I still think you will get more bite for your points with rippers and cheap gaunts than stealers against orks - though I do accept talons would be worthwhile in this case.

The remaining problem, and the clincher is that normally I would not recommend talosn so firmly that I wouldnt recommend modelling up stealers this way unless you have plenty of bugs to spare. Naked, carapace, or scuttling are the ones you need in general, talons come way down the list of priorities.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:200 Spinegaunts ... cost 1000pts. no more orks.
i prefer 100 Termagaunts +1S, re-roll to wound and they come back over and over... cost 900pts
100 hormagaunts with toxin sacs ... cost 1200pts and do nothing if the ork are in cover. pick your gaunts very carefully

Lol for 1000 pts you can get 167 Shootas. 334 shots approx 111 hits = 74 dead Gaunts per turn on average. I doubt the remaining 26 Termagaunts will win in CC. Luckily few people field such a big horde.

yorkskargrimironklaw:

200 Spinegaunts ... cost 1000pts. no more orks.

As zaqzaq said, you're dreaming. Spinegaunts can never outshoot an equal points' worth of Shootaboyz, nor can they out-assault them. Fielding mass gaunts (of any sort) against Orks is insta-lose IMO.

Insta-lose, not necessarily. Gaunts like boyz are components of a whole. You need to team up the gaunts with other things, but it never hurts to have a healthy number of them.

I wouldnt take 200 spinegaunts against anything though, they just get in the way.

I actually fancy the chances of devourergaunt shooting, spines and rippers for the tie up against horde orks. Or temagants for both roles. Invest 500pts in that and back them up with good synpse and a monster or two and you are in or one hell of a battle of attrition.

I played Orks VS Bugs quite a few times and frankly I'm really surprised by your post.

Bugs have a lot on orks even if you go with a horde of gaunts. They have a higher initiative, just as many attacks, and a strength to wound orks easily. You get the charge off and you're going to win. I would pick 20 Hormagaunts in HTH over 30 Orks in HTH anyday.

Leaping + Strength and you have it.

If you let him go first he will be moving forward to try to get in range of shooting only a few will be in range, with move + fleet + 12" charge you will nail him.

I think the math respectfully disagrees.

I'm correcting the person that said take genestealers with implant attacks. That just does 2 wounds to a multi-wound model, it will not take down two boys with one failed save.