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I haven't played against Dark Angels in years. Some Dakka posters regard them as a 'weak' Codex. But, I saw a tournament winner or two in the Bat Reps section and don't understand how they are weaker than ordinary marines-which is what I usually play. What I saw in their list was las-plas squads-that can't be too awful. They have a character named Samuel with what seems to be a flying Landraider!, and in the Bat Rep they put a tooled up assault squad/character in an actual Landraider. This is controversial -the old one hit and you're done thing, but I've seen Chaos armies plunk down 2 Landraiders at 1500 points and win some games.

Personally, I would usually support my Ultramarine Las Plas squads with Terminators and Landspeeders (Assault Cannons good....), or might try Ed Maule's ancient suggestion for 3 Whirlwinds.

Couldn't the Dark Angels do something similar, or are they restricted to having their Terminators all in one company, ditto for Speeders or some other bizarre codex restrictions.

Thanks

1) Dark Angels don't have "Las/Plas Squads". Las/Plas Squads in the traditional sense are 6 man. Dark Angels squads are 10 man and must include a Veteran Sergeant. You can split them into Combat Squads (5 man), but then you're still only getting 1/2 the firepower of a Marine SAFH list.

2) The RW Master is great, but it's not really a flying Land Raider. No transport capacity and less firepower. It's solid, but not game-breaking.

3) The Land Raider trick is down (I use a Crusader and a DW Assault Squad), but it's nothing regular Marines can't do, and it's not really a great tactic. You'll win some games, but it's not all that reliable.

4) 3 Whirlwinds is fine, and Dark Angels have other strong HS like cheap Predator Annihilators.

They're not that 'weak', but they're certainly much weaker than a no-holds-barred C: SM list. Once Space Marines get redone with 10 man / Combat Squads, not traits, etc., DA won't look as bad in comparison.

The reason is that they're basically a "Marine army", except they lack all the things that currently make a Marine army strong enough to win against other strong armies:

Cheap Assault Cannon Speeders
6 Man Las/Plas
Cheap Drop Pods
2 Assault cannons per Terminator Squad
Cheap Power Fists
Variable Squad sizes, which especially hurts units like Assault Squads who want 8 guys in a unit instead of 10.

Their Librarian powers are pretty terrible, the lack of vet skills for their terminators or veteran squads, Elite Scouts.

That's why they're generally considered a "weak" list, because just about anything you'd try to make with them you could do a better version of it, for less points, with the normal Codex: Space Marines.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The reason is that they're basically a "Marine army", except they lack all the things that currently make a Marine army strong enough to win against other strong armies:

Cheap Assault Cannon Speeders
6 Man Las/Plas
Cheap Drop Pods
2 Assault cannons per Terminator Squad
Cheap Power Fists
Variable Squad sizes, which especially hurts units like Assault Squads who want 8 guys in a unit instead of 10.

Their Librarian powers are pretty terrible, the lack of vet skills for their terminators or veteran squads, Elite Scouts.

That's why they're generally considered a "weak" list, because just about anything you'd try to make with them you could do a better version of it, for less points, with the normal Codex: Space Marines.

You are correct that DA are weak at the moment compared to Vanilla Marines, but this is only temporary. I imagine that the new SM codex that is due around the release of 5th Ed. is going to erase all the advantages that you listed.

Thanks for the info. Yes, I see Vanilla Marines and Dark Angels are winning so many Grand Tournaments with perfect 100 point battle scores that GW just has to tone them down-I think the phrase I'm looking for is laughs out loud..... Good thing I've got my Lord of the Rings armies painted.....

Xigris wrote:
You are correct that DA are weak at the moment compared to Vanilla Marines, but this is only temporary. I imagine that the new SM codex that is due around the release of 5th Ed. is going to erase all the advantages that you listed.

From what I've managed to infer from my sources (which are moderately reliable), space marines will not be the first 5th edition codex. Its looking like they will be the 3rd or 4th after things like IG and Dark Eldar which never got a 4th edition codex and really need some love. So while the space marines will get their nerf sooner or later, it's going to be a couple of years (2-3) before it happens, so don't hold your breath.

DA are weak because they require 10 man tactical squads to get 1 shot across the board.

Ravenwing/Deathwing by themselves are weak. Combination forces work slightly better, but are still weaker overall than say a Lysander list.

Phoenix wrote:

Xigris wrote:
You are correct that DA are weak at the moment compared to Vanilla Marines, but this is only temporary. I imagine that the new SM codex that is due around the release of 5th Ed. is going to erase all the advantages that you listed.

From what I've managed to infer from my sources (which are moderately reliable), space marines will not be the first 5th edition codex. Its looking like they will be the 3rd or 4th after things like IG and Dark Eldar which never got a 4th edition codex and really need some love. So while the space marines will get their nerf sooner or later, it's going to be a couple of years (2-3) before it happens, so don't hold your breath.

I do not know who you source is, but mine is Bell of Lost Souls and they say October for SM Codex (but who is their source?). However, i do agree that IG, DE, and DH need updates very badly.

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/02/rumors-brought-to-community-by-warseers.html

All the frigging codexes should be updated on a yearly basis in PDF format on the website, for frick's sakes. this codex release schedule is a stinking joke. Charge for it if you have to, but it's slowed.

Man, this is going to be my new angry topic. Codex updates. Waiting FOUR YEARS for your codex to get updated. How can a company run a business like that?

Because we're used to it? Because we have low expectations?
Because they have no real competition!
Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby and will probably stay in it for the duration, but when you think about it the level of support and product is pretty awful. Think of Forgeworld, great stuff by most peple's opinions but you get their product unbuilt, unpainted, needing to be washed/fixed and often bent into shape. Thats almost criminal fr the money you pay. The alternative scenario probably involves a succesfull competitor for GW, which with their current financial situation would probably mean the end of our hobby. I guess we suck it up.

Anyhow, back on topic... I love the DA but unless you're going Deathwing/Ravenwing everything can be done better vanilla. There do seem to be a fair number of events cropping up though that have DA near to te top or winning so there must be some decent builds there. I suspect that into 5th ed DA will climb from the bottom of the 'weak list' pile up into the 'middle of the road, can be competitive' list more and more as new lists come out and older ones are updated.

People aren't quite used to the RW/DW combo yet.

Once they get used to it, it'll be bottom of the barrel for the DA again.

That's all it is in my opinion.

Well with scoring units only being troops in 5th ed, and DA/BA being able to put out more troops than other marine armies (thanks to Combat Squads) they will be competitive.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozy alot of people seem to believe combat squads in 5th edition will make up for the sucktitude that is the current state of DA.

I can assure you, it won't.

For BA, well the jump pack troops choices don't have alot of flexibility in them so you won't be getting much bang for your buck by splitting them up.

i think having both tactical and assault squads score is pretty good already, forget splitting them.

same for ravenwing troops. it's not going to turn everything on it's head, but fast scoring units are going to be hard to come by in 5th.

the angels of death will be better of than they are now at any rate.

Ozymandias wrote:Well with scoring units only being troops in 5th ed, and DA/BA being able to put out more troops than other marine armies (thanks to Combat Squads) they will be competitive.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Incorrect.

Anything more than 3 max tac squads, assuming you give them wargear to make them effective, will be dumping too many points into units that cant get enough firepower/HtH power to balance the tacticals utility.

In short, the list will be weak.

Combat squad rule is only really useful with Ravenwing squadrons really...and then only marginally.

...this is all considering 1750-1850pts of course.

Dear Longshot,

I apologize for going off topic in my own thread. But, the 4 year cycle for codexes makes sense in a cynical way. Player buys army, new codex appears, player must restructure army. New codex for other army appears and player's original army becomes 'middle of the pack' or worse. So, player must buy new army. Year 3, new codex appears for second army, player must restructure army 2. Year 4, new codex appears and first two armies are now 'weak', player must buy yet another army. Year 5. New codex for first army appears along with new models which player must buy to be competitive.....Year 6. New version of rules appears and player must now retool three armies to conform with WYSIWYG.

My rant is that for all the good features of vanilla marines, NONE of them are making top scores on the GT circut. Ditto Imperial Guard. Warhammer 40k is really XENO 40k- a game for people who enjoy dying their skins green, attaching little pointy vulcan ears or imitating cicadas.

?
Because orks got so much attention for the last decade. Ditto Dark Eldar.
C'mon. 40K is all about space marines. But Phil Kelly seems to write the Xenos codices that have come out for 4th, and he's left them flexible. Flexible = potentially powerful. Space Marines do alright in tournies with Las plas and assault cannon spam. The problem is that they are so numerous that everyone metagames against them.
Imperial Guard on the other hand could really do with another look. I reckon they'd be hard to do well with in tournaments because they can easily give away a lot of points, even in a victory and even played well.

All of this aside: I have played against Dark Angels only the once, and they seemed grand enough to me. I don't understand why they need their own codex though, the layout was pretty much exactly the same as codex marines.

Dark Angels are surprisingly effective, if you forget what you know about Space Marines and start building from the ground up.

I have been playing various lists since July, and have actually found that Pure Ravenwing Lists are the most competitive. They are tricky to Master however, so the inherent value of this list isn't really visable in theory hammer.

Stelek, you are dead wrong about the Ravenwing / Deathwing Combo. I have found that it is one of the worst list out of the codex, you either have too few Terminators, or too few Bikes. Tis a shame because I would really like to get that to work.

AS an almost exclusive DA player since da had a codex..i find the DA good.
I have won my share of games and placed well (2nd and 3rd) at many RTT's have entered, but alas..yes never the grail..yet.

If you play to the lists strengths they can be very strong...

TROOPS... TROOPS... did i say troops?

Ok fine.. most SM armys take 5 man sqauds.. and can feild 2x the heavy weapons...

but since DA can only take 10 man sqauds.. i feild between 50-60 marines (3-4 tacs and 1-2 devs, all 10 man)
sqauds average about 210 to 260 with transports... I spend 300 on my command and i reound out my points with a pred Annialator and dread.
in a 1850 game ill usualy dropa dev sqaud.

a 10 man sqaud will take down a 5 man sqaud every day ..and forget about trying to unseat a 10 man plasma cannon sqaud in cover... Bolters rock, learn to love the bolter and it will server you well!...especialy if you combine firepower on one target.

In a DA list dont go for toys.. put boots on the ground and you will see , that is where the DA list excels.

Now... after all this FANBOY rheteric.. the do have one down fall.. they are missing that HTH..UMPH! that other armys seem to have unless your deathwinging it in a crusader...

The problem with a list like that, AtraAngelis, is that you're playing a very vanilla list (and the cheaper dreads and weapons for C:SM bypasses our reduced transport and predator costs)

The list you mention is exactly the kind of list a DA player should take if he wants to do well in RTTs and GTs on a regular basis. The problem is, that's a vanilla army and not a DA one. When C:SM does get redone, blueberries will have all those same options.

The problem with the DA codex isn't that it doesn't win, it's that it doesn't win enough when you actually use the things you play DA for, such as Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Marines under this new format are pushed into an almost elite army status rather than a generalist army. The lower in points you go the more glaring it is. You can grab bodies or firepower, but not both, unless you have a large point value to work with. Add super-expensive bikes and terminators to the list, and you're just compounding the issue.

I applaud your success with that army, but I wouldn't look at such a list and think for a second that you played Dark Angels.

As a side note, we do lack some of the HTH oomph of furious charge assault marines, but for the time being our veterans are much cheaper than their vanilla counterparts and pack quite a punch in melee. Doesn't help them terribly much against elite melee units like genestealers and harlies if you can't set up the charge, but they are our best option for it.

I field a pure Deathwing army (nothing but terminators: 25 in 1500pts with 2 characters), and though I only play in a friendly environment, I've never lost.

IMO Dark Angels are not 'weak' they just have to realize that if you want to play like a regular Space Marine, grab the SM codex, if your a Dark Angel, pull out all the fancy crap in your Codex. With 5 squads of Terminators in my DW army I can vouch for the Deathwing Assault rule, as it makes them really really effective and allows you to catch them off guard and blow 'em away before they can reposition.

All in all, I think as long as the DA take advantage of the Deathwing and Ravenwing they should be fine.

I have a good friend who plays DA probably better than anyone I have seen. He basically plays with a balanced list with two tacs, jump troops, preds, and various other mis and matches. Problem is you can build the same force using the marine dex with the same effect. He has tried the various Ravenwing/Deathwing forces combo's and just can't seem to find the synergy. That my friends is why the DA dex is just lame because the things that make them unique in thier options are just not as effective as they should be IMO. BA are much the same as far as battle squads but have more flexibility in some of thier unit options choices (mainly DC,assault squads as troops, great characters and Baal preds) although this was written after the DA dex so maybe they learned a few things with all the teeth nashing about the DA dex from veteren players.

I agree with Lady Canoness,
I use typically two Ravenwing squads in every army that I build of DA, and these squads are exceptional as well as unique to the DA.
Back them up with cheap preds, venerable dreads, and a tac squad or two, then you have a strong army that still retains the uniqueness of DA.

Btw, my record with DA lists is exceptional, and thats playing many different builds that aren't typical of vanilla marines lists.

Funny thing is DA used to be the shooty marine list.
Just wish that aspect would of made it into the new dex.

I occasionally play Marines configured as Blood Angels, and I'm surprised no one here is gushing about Devastator Combat Squads - which I really really love.

Devestator combat squads are good, they're one of the better units in the next dexes. Personally, I'd rather have tankhunting missle devs or a cheap compact heavy bolter dev team, but YMMV.

All deathwing currently don't have enough firepower to actually wipe out anything: one assault cannon is nice, but it'll be hard pressed to break an IG squad, let alone anything harder. If your opponents learn how to react to deathwing, you've got 5 big slow scoring units that can't assault the turn they appear, and don't present enough firepower to really be a threat.

My buddy plays them from time to time, and my SAFH marines and IG just wipe him out. being able to shoot them every time before they assault makes them very vulnerable, while their speed means the expensive units can avoid them.

You don't have to take an Assault cannon. There's the Cyclone Missile Launcher, whose blast template whll be very handy, or the Heavy Flamethrower which goes really well in Terminator squads configured as Assault Terminators.

I hope that was supposed to be a joke.

Someone is going to have to present a better arguement than "I always win with it" if they want to try and make deathwing appear viable.

What.

You think a heavy flamer template, 2-3 lightning claw terminators and 1-2 thunderhammer terminators can't wipe out an IG squad?

If so, I guess I'm missing the joke.

Because a normal terminator squad can already do that, and it maintains effectiveness against most other targets. Something lightning claws and heavy flamers cannot do.