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With the changes to first turn and deployment, being able to put units in reserve, screening, loss of entanglement and apparently jump troops being able to move and fire heavy weapons will DE be a good 5e army? Agonisers also don't count as powerfists and as such aren't affected by the PF nerf.

Firstly by placing Raiders/Ravagers in reserve they will be able to do something before being shot to death. They are also more resilient with a 5+ cover save. This sounds minor but if partial template hits count as full I'm thinking Dissies/Terrorfex/Horrorfex/Haem Destructors will be pretty good.

DE are currently a very powerful army in 4th edition.

They get even better in 5th.

Webways are still nice for a good deployment and also the raider force not having to be on the table for a 1st turn slaughter. Wych Cults will turn from good to sick being only 1 KP and basically being a hunter of troop choices against other armies.

It will be nice to use scourages again.

If you know that you are going to go first, a unit of Wyches with Lelith is guaranteed to have a first turn charge as long as they start in a raider. If I knew I was going to go first, I think I would start with all of my DE units on the table.

Darrian

Actually I was thinking of

Lelith
Archite w/usual stuff
Some Warriors for Lances
Wyches + Raiders
Warp Beasts
Ravagers

So basically everything starts on the table if i go first. If I go 2nd then just the lance squads and Warp Beasts start on the table with the rest coming in reserves.

Dark Eldar will not suffer rivals, you have two archites in your army, and you can only have one.

Hmm drachite then if only to get 2 shadowfields.

The leaked pdf changes to templates were bad for my disintegrators and horrofex shots in playtesting. BS4 is a lot more reliable than a scatter + highest of two d6, even with no partials.

However the removal of auto-entanglement, the sick brokenness of assault, and the cover saves for vehicles did plenty of good.

Still doesn't have a build that could possibly compete with good orks though.

Can't have 2 shadowfields either.

Moz wrote:The leaked pdf changes to templates were bad for my disintegrators and horrofex shots in playtesting. BS4 is a lot more reliable than a scatter + highest of two d6, even with no partials.

However the removal of auto-entanglement, the sick brokenness of assault, and the cover saves for vehicles did plenty of good.

Still doesn't have a build that could possibly compete with good orks though.

As someone who plays against a very skilled DE player fairly regularly, I suspect the full on Wytch Cult will do just fine against the Boyz.

Wytches kill Boyz dead, even in large Mobz. Pack in the Wytches into troops and you'll do just fine.

Moz wrote:The leaked pdf changes to templates were bad for my disintegrators and horrofex shots in playtesting. BS4 is a lot more reliable than a scatter + highest of two d6, even with no partials.

However the removal of auto-entanglement, the sick brokenness of assault, and the cover saves for vehicles did plenty of good.

Still doesn't have a build that could possibly compete with good orks though.

Really?

I love the changes, I don't miss with disintegrators anymore.

I can't agree with you on a build that beats orks. My standard army and my WWP army both have a field day with Orks (and everyone else, for that matter.)

Stelek wrote:Can't have 2 shadowfields either.

Hmm I thought special character items did not count towards the wargear limit? So you would get one for the Drachite and Lelith has her 2+ invuln.

It was FAQ'd. 1 shadowfield per army, regardless of it's source.

DE have always been a viable army - it's just that the models are ugly as sin which is why not many folks play 'em. But as others here have said, they'll get even better in 5th ed., for sure.

My fear is lots of 30 man shoota squads, but I can't say I've actually run it, so I don't have the experience against a good new codex ork horde. It just seems like wyches would be outclassed against regular boyz for the price, even when just assuming they get the +Str drug for the best matchup. You're double the price for what boils down to a 4+ save vs. a 6+ in combat.

But there's a lot of mobility in Deldar, never to be underestimated.

Bring lots of warriors.

Not lots of wyches.

As long as you use your raider cleverly, you should be able to pounce on the ork mobs and always get the charge. That, and enough attacks at high I mean you can at least mostly clear the killzone.
If I was you I'd be more worried about the trukk mobs, which could actually bring the fight to you on their terms.

I run my DE against a very competent ork player quite frequently and Especially considering I give one wyche squad an animus vitae/agonizer after alls said and done those orks point for point dont do so well at all, in fact ive never done worse than a draw with him.

Stelek wrote:Bring lots of warriors.

Not lots of wyches.

Quoted for truth.

As much as the Dark Eldar seem to get panned I still believe that the basic Dark Eldar Warrior is just about the best 8 points you can spend in 40k.

Stelek wrote:Bring lots of warriors.

Not lots of wyches.

I'd love to hear an explanation as to why Warriors are going to be better than Wytches, especially in dealing with Orks.

Orks will outshoot the Warriors, easily. I know, I've done it.

Wythces on the other hand will be able to get the drop on the Orks with their transports and do stand a great chance of consistently putting them down in assault, even in big mobz. You can put more than enough Wytches in Raiders in a normal list to put a horde army to worry.

Accuracy by Volume wrote:Especially considering I give one wyche squad an animus vitae/agonizer

??

You lost me. What is +1 Str and +1 Ws doing for you on a succubus with a wounds on 4+ power weapon?

When the DE have more bodies than you do, it changes the game for Orks--especially mobile Orks. Orks will win the CC, but with a few select units to countercharge with the DE can break the back of Ork charges. You do realize the DE are the only race with superior mobility vs the Orks, right?

Yes, I don't think anybody was disputing that.

I've never seen the matchup played, but looking at both codexes I think the Orks have a the game in a basket. I don't think the DE have any kind of chance vs. an Ork horde army. Even a counter-horde, like Stelek is suggesting, doesn't seem like it would work to me. Each DE is more expensive than an Ork, and infinitely worse at shooting, fighting and morale.

I guess I'm confused.

Orks and DE hit each other on 4+.
Orks shoot on 5+, DE shoot on 3+.
Orks are fearless until there's less than 11 of them, and their LD bottoms out at 7--while DE have 8, 9, and 10 LD; just as good as space marines.
DE even have a better save...

How is this infinitely worse? Orks get more CC attacks, so that's the infinite part I guess.

As far as I'm concerned DE are the perfect army
Let me count the reasons:

1. DE warriors are an excellent buy (the Stats of an aspect warrior)
2. Great equipment (agonizers, dark shields, dark lances, splinter cannons, ect)
3. Wytches
4. Incubi
5. Cheap open-topped skimmers
6. Fast Moving Hard hitting units.

The second their line gets re-done I'll be throw everything else on the back burner. The bastard are jsut so damn ugly with their spikes a 2nd ed neckless bodies.

Well Orks are cheaper than warriors, tougher and have a better gun and furious charge. They get 5+ saves from KFF too.

A typical scenario would be roughly 20 boyz against 15 warriors. You get 15 shots at 24'' from the Warriors that = 10 hits = 10/3 wounds. With KFF this becomes 20/9 or roughly 2. 18 boyz fire 36 shots with 12 hits = 8 wounds. Naturally the following 2 turns will be warriors using rapid fire followed by the shootas shooting and charging but I'm sure you can see the math works in favour of the boyz.

With Wyches charging tho I think the math does favour them. Unfortunately one would have to play a rather boring 6+ Raider list with Wyches to beat a Horde tho.

The only advantage to playing the Kabal list now imo is to field something like Vect.

Man, their Ld is 8 across the board. The fact that 2 ICs can start with Ld9, and the rest of the army (if they take an upgrade character with a Trophy rack) can get +1 Ld after killing something in CC does not a space marine LD make.

I wouldn't say the DEldar warrior is infinitely worse. I just don't think they are on even ground.
If you play it by numbers on an open field:
Shootas walk into 24"
Warriors fire at 24"
Shootas walk into 18" and fire
Warriors fire at 18"
Shootas advance to 12" fire
Minimum squads needed to lock shootas advance and assault, the rest of the squads rapidfire.


I'm bored, so lets assume 6x20 warriors (I'll give em 2xSplinter cannons each just to help em out and make them = to 30 boyz) vs. 6x30 shoota boyz.

Ork 1: Advance within 24"
180 Boyz

Deldar 1: Fire!
120 warriors fire
48 Splintercannon shots : avg 15 boyz
108 rifle shots : avg 23 boyz

Ork 2: Advance within 18" & Fire
142 (180-23-15) boyz move and fire:
284 shoota shots : 30 warriors

Deldar 2: Fire!
90 (120-30) warriors fire:
40 splintercannon : 13 boyz
80 rifle : 17

Ork 3: Advance within 12" & fire
112 (142-13-17) boyz
224 shots : 24 warriors

Deldar 3: Minimum squads needed to lock shootas advance and assault, the rest of the squads rapidfire.
66 (90-24) warriors, 8 splinter cannons remain. We'll say 2 squads (40) approach and assault. The rest hold and rapidfire.
32 Splinter cannon: 11 boyz
44 rifle: 10 boyz
80 charge attacks: 11 boyz
Lets say that was the killzone. 40 warriors are stuck in with 80 boyz, 26 are out.

Ork 4:
80 boyz (112-11-10-11) stuck in with 40 warriors
40 warrior swings: 6 boyz
148 remaining boyz swings: 32 warriors
Assume 8 remaining warriors run to give Dark Eldar the best chance still. 72 Orks consolidate within 12" of remaining warriors.

Deldar 4:
26 warriors w/4 splintercannons advance to assault
16 splinter cannon: 5 boyz
52 warrior swings in assault: 7 boyz
Assume killzone sweep again. 26 warriors stuck in 60 boyz.

Ork 5:
60 (72-5-7)
26 Warrior swings: 4 boyz
112 boyz swings: 24 warriors
Assume 2 remaining warriors break.

56 Boyz remaining.

Assumptions:
No cover saves for boyz
Boyz fearless
Boyz are always charged
Deldar fearless except in assault
Deldar only lose splinter cannons at 19th and 20th kills per squad.
Deldar tie up 2:1 boyz to warrior ratio on turn 4
Deldar sweep killzone in all assaults
Deldar break only on the ork turn
All models in range at appropriate range steps
No difficult terrain checks for either side

Now, this isn't a HUGE margin, so dice could make it go either way. However I do think I made enough assumptions favoring the dark eldar to really show that warriors alone are really not the answer to shoota boyz. Adding big factors in like the ubiquitous KFF, or Dark eldar breaking on 7's at 11 casualties without chance to rally I think would really push it over the edge.

Well Orks are cheaper than warriors, tougher and have a better gun and furious charge. They get 5+ saves from KFF too.

A typical scenario would be roughly 20 boyz against 15 warriors. You get 15 shots at 24'' from the Warriors that = 10 hits = 10/3 wounds. With KFF this becomes 20/9 or roughly 2. 18 boyz fire 36 shots with 12 hits = 8 wounds. Naturally the following 2 turns will be warriors using rapid fire followed by the shootas shooting and charging but I'm sure you can see the math works in favour of the boyz.

With Wyches charging tho I think the math does favour them. Unfortunately one would have to play a rather boring 6+ Raider list with Wyches to beat a Horde tho.

The only advantage to playing the Kabal list now imo is to field something like Vect.

Your comparing Orks warriors to DE warriors but the Orks have a KFF. WTF? Then you say firlding Vect would be a advantage? Vect is an absolute points sink as any DE general will testify.

The reason I used KFF was because the KFF cost is going to be spread across a large number of models in a horde list. Once you divide it by the number of boyz the cost doesn't become that significant. As for Vect I meant that in 5e he might actually be decent.