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Made in us
Been Around the Block




My 30 man Shoota squad has 1 boy in base contact with an enemy dark reaper. Inside of the 2 inch killzone, there are 6 boys, that leaves 24 boys not able to fight. My opponent said he is able to shoot the boys not locked in combat. Can he do this? It was my understanding that once a model from a unit becomes engaged, the entire unit counts as in close combat, therefore, cannot be shot at.

He based his claim on page 44 of the BGB.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




P. 38. The rest of the unit (those models not "engaged," i.e., in the kill zone) is locked.

And as per the very page your opponent pointed out, locked units cannot be targeted normally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/02/13 07:14:09


"I didn't say I was ATTACKING the Umber Hulk. I said I was THINKING about it." -- Jimbo Jones as one of "The 12 Types of Fantasy Gamers" in "Comic Book Guy's Book of Pop Culture" 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




In third edition models outside of the kill zone could be targeted by shooting and even shoot themselves I seem to recall.

In fourth edition the term kill zone has been removed and is replaced by the term "engaged" moreover the entire unit with atleast one engaged model is considered "locked", thus if even one model in a unit is in BtB with an oponent then the whole unit is considered locked but only models within 2" of that model are considered engaged (in the kill zone).

Looking at the shooting phase rules for choosing a target I cant seem to find any rules for what targets may not be chosen as targets, the section of target priority however states that you may automatically ignore units you may not shoot at as for example units with all models engaged in CC.

Aparently your friend was not using this passage.

After that LOS rules start and as far as I can see being allowed to target locked/engaged models are not covered there, just that locked models are considered to block LOS.

Thus, I jump to CC rules.
And finally I found the rule. page 44, Shooting into & out of CC, really should have simply gone to page 44 as listed in your post at once

You may not directly target any model locked in CC, the only way to cause "shooting" casualties in a unit locked in CC is to shoot a template weapon at a target close by and have that template weapon scatter into the locked/engaged models.

It seems like your friend has missunderstood the terminology of engaged/locked and mixed in flashbacks from 3rd edition.

The term killzone is not used in the 4th edition rules and just like you belive once a single model becomes engaged (a feet that is only possible in 1 model units but...) then the whole unit becomes locked and can not be directly targeted for shooting.

Remember here that while only a small portion of a unit may be engaged all models in the unit are locked even those that are also engaged.

Stelek wrote:Dude, you cannot FNP MC CC attacks. I don't care how you "read" the rules. I even don't care if you are correct and GW says you can. lol
In short GW rulings are void!  
   
Made in gb
Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot






Worcester, UK

Yes, your oppponent seems to be a bit confused. Models in assualt are all considered to be "engaged" regardless of wether they can physically fight or not in that combat round and therefore are unable to shoot or be shot at until the combat is over.

Additionally, the whole mass of models friend and foe also block line of sight for shooting purposes of other units.

 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




hellsguardian316, do not confuse engaged with locked.

Engaged models are only those within 2" of a model in BtB with an oponent model.
Engaged models fight in close combat and thus can kill and be killed.

If even one model in the unit is engaged then the whole unit is locked, a unit that is locked in combat blocks LOS and man not be chosen as a ranged fire target, you may not even place a template or blast marker so that it even partially covers a locked model.

I know Im a bit of a stickler here but its important to separate the terminology as a bluring of it will cause problems for you, if you for example claim an entire unit is engaged a person can pick upp the rulebook and point out that only models within 2" of a BtB model are considered engaged and thus this would allow... well whatever.

Stelek wrote:Dude, you cannot FNP MC CC attacks. I don't care how you "read" the rules. I even don't care if you are correct and GW says you can. lol
In short GW rulings are void!  
   
Made in gb
Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot






Worcester, UK

Ah yes, your quite right Fester, It should have read "Locked" instead of "Engaged"
I got muddled up typed the wrong one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/02/13 12:48:16


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Well thanks everybody, glad thats sorted out.
   
 
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