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could someone please refresh me on what the tournament (i.e. Adepticon, GD tournies, etc) standards are for determining LOS? for example, can an infantry model shoot a "level 3" vehicle behind another "level 3" vehicle if he can see it's pintle-mounted storm bolter peeking over, and if so, where on the infantry model do you draw LOS from to determine this?

also, if there are different standards used for various "official" tournaments, i'd like to know this too.

thx! ^^

According to the main rulebook, you need to be able to trace your line of sight to "the body" of the target model, in order to prevent penalizing players who create unique looking models.

Generally, when targeting any vehicle, you need to have LOS to a part of the vehicle's hull. Weapons don't count for this purpose.

ColonelEllios wrote:According to the main rulebook, you need to be able to trace your line of sight to "the body" of the target model, in order to prevent penalizing players who create unique looking models.

Just a quick question to touch on this statement. If I remember right, range is measured from the gun barrel on a tank/vehicle. Is LOS also determined from the gun barrel as well? If so, predators can shoot over rhinos but can't be shot back at, since the hull of the predator is out of LOS. Not saying I play this way at all tho

Read page 20 of the rule book "Line of sight", the first paragraph. It says something along the lines of you use true line of sight from the model (it even specifically says you should bend over the table and put your head down next to the model to see what it can see) whenever you are trying to determine if line of sight exists. The only exception to this rule is when you are shooting into or through area terrain.

The next portion of the rules that are important for this is that vehicles are vehicles, not area terrain. When vehicles are destroyed, they become wrecks, and wrecks are area terrain so at that point, the line of sight rules change so you can't shoot over a level 3 wreck. I actualy played in a game recently where I went to great lengths to not kill my opponent's rhinos because while they were alive, I could shoot over them, but if they were destroyed, they all of a sudden would have blocked all my line of sight over them (guess its the smoke billowing out or something).

The final portion of useful rules is the vehicle shooting rules that state that range (and possibly line of sight, you'll need to check it in the rules) is determined from the barrel of the weapon being fired.

Now if the tournament organizers change the rules (or doesn't know them) then things might be different, but that's how things work in the rule book.

Phoenix wrote: I actualy played in a game recently where I went to great lengths to not kill my opponent's rhinos because while they were alive, I could shoot over them, but if they were destroyed, they all of a sudden would have blocked all my line of sight over them (guess its the smoke billowing out or something).

That opponent was me...damn you for knowing the rules and not using them to MY advantage!

Wrecks are not defined as Area Terrain in the rulebook. They block LOS per the vehicle's profile just like the vehicle does when it's alive. The same sentence on page 20 which tells you that you can shoot over vehicles specifically mentions wrecks as well.

LOS from a vehicle is traced from the weapon mount. The main rulebook tells us that range is measured to and from the vehicle's hull, but GW decided that's too counterintuitive, so the main rulebook FAQ changed it to being measured from the weapon.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/40k_rulebook_faq.pdf

The Independent National/Adepticon FAQ is clear about how they're ruling LOS. See page 5 of the FAQ. It references the relevant pages.

http://www.adepticon.org/files/INAT_FAQ.pdf

Yak wrote a very detailed article breaking down LOS in 40k, the confusing elements of it, and a couple of common interpretations. You can check it out here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/185970.page#186172

I've never been able to play someone who doesn't use the magic cylinder approach. This is playing in tournaments in several different areas.

Hmm, sounds like Mannahnin is correct. Seems like Phoenix and I were playing incorrectly. Per the rulebook for Wrecks on p. 68, 'Unless stated otherwise, a wrecked vehicle should be marked with some cotton wool smoke and flames and left on the table. It continues to block line of sight as if it were intact but counts as difficult terrain for infantry movement.'

skyth wrote:I've never been able to play someone who doesn't use the magic cylinder approach. This is playing in tournaments in several different areas.

Use page 20 to correct them. 'All vehicles, vehicle wrecks, monstrous creatures and artillery, friend or foe block line of sight. A line of sight can still be drawn over or past such models, but not through them. Use a model's eye view to determine if you can see past them.'

Stop debating what LOS is supposed to be and answer the question: "What do the major tournaments consider it to be?"

Mannahnin and skyth have the only applicable input so far. I haven't played in a major tournament myself due to location and lack of wanting to travel.

Why come into the thread just to complain about what we're discussing? You said yourself you haven't played in a major tournament. Sounds like you don't have much to contribute. Considering we're still discussing LOS rules, I don't see how they don't fit into the thread, since I would expect major tournaments to follow the rules.

Lormax wrote:Hmm, sounds like Mannahnin is correct. Seems like Phoenix and I were playing incorrectly. Per the rulebook for Wrecks on p. 68, 'Unless stated otherwise, a wrecked vehicle should be marked with some cotton wool smoke and flames and left on the table. It continues to block line of sight as if it were intact but counts as difficult terrain for infantry movement.'

Good to know. I'll have to log that in perminant memory.

Most tournaments (like GTs) don't have a set standard and just rely on the main rules. This means you get a wide variety of different standards depending on the player you face, as you can see in this poll:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/103057.page


As for Adepticon, we went with essentially the 'friendly model's eye view' approach (it's in the FAQ).

Major tournaments tend to follow the rules as written - line of sight from models eye view, except for area terrain. What defines the body as sopposed to a wing or gun or some other superflous piece? Thats for you and your opponent to argue about endlessly. What do you do when "models eye view" to one person is half an inch too high, or for the other it's half an inch too low, or the model is in the middle of the table and 28mm so how the hell do you actually get your eye down there to see if you can see the carnifex over the rhino? You...get the judge.

But most of the time players at tournaments are pretty friendly and line of sight is obvious. You also get a lot of people who want to declare every piece of terrain on the board as area terrain of a size (like uh...me) just to avoid arguments (or to conveniently hide their skimmers on turn 1). But don't expect to play magic cylinder. And do expect to get into arguments when you point out that wrecks aren't area terrain...the rule pointed out here is probably the rule people most commonly either play purposefully wrong because it's easier, or just don't know because of the way the vehicles and wrecks rules are written and organized.

Lormax wrote:

skyth wrote:I've never been able to play someone who doesn't use the magic cylinder approach. This is playing in tournaments in several different areas.

Use page 20 to correct them. 'All vehicles, vehicle wrecks, monstrous creatures and artillery, friend or foe block line of sight. A line of sight can still be drawn over or past such models, but not through them. Use a model's eye view to determine if you can see past them.'

Doesn't help any. The TO's admit what the rules say, but don't want to follow them on account of the hypothetical crouching wraithlord.

If they can shoot over it, you can shoot back.

thanks for the replies guys, especially those who linked me to the proper FAQs ^^

question: when it says you measure LOS from the "model's eye view", where exactly on the model (let's say a space marine) do you draw that line from? if you say "the eyes", then what do you do if the model is instead a converted chaos lord with twelve heads situated all over the body? if you say "anywhere on the body of the model", can you measure from a space marine's banner (and lets assume it reaches higher than a rhino is tall)?

And what if they don't have eyes, like a Wraithlord?

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:question: when it says you measure LOS from the "model's eye view", where exactly on the model (let's say a space marine) do you draw that line from? if you say "the eyes", then what do you do if the model is instead a converted chaos lord with twelve heads situated all over the body? if you say "anywhere on the body of the model", can you measure from a space marine's banner (and lets assume it reaches higher than a rhino is tall)?

I won't be able to respond to all of this post, but the BGB does say you cannot target the antenna, banners, etc of a model. If you can't target it, you shouldn't be able to shoot from it, otherwise you run into the issue of what I mentioned above (predators shooting over rhinos).

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:thanks for the replies guys, especially those who linked me to the proper FAQs ^^

question: when it says you measure LOS from the "model's eye view", where exactly on the model (let's say a space marine) do you draw that line from? if you say "the eyes", then what do you do if the model is instead a converted chaos lord with twelve heads situated all over the body? if you say "anywhere on the body of the model", can you measure from a space marine's banner (and lets assume it reaches higher than a rhino is tall)?

You should be taking a model's eye view from the model's eyes/head as best you can. Converted or weird looking models can definitely make this a bit tricky but just discussing it with your opponent really quick should let you guys come to a fair conclusion. Drawing LOS from a really tall banner would definitely not be taking the perspective of the model's eye view, though.

I'd suggest you make sure you discuss it with your opponents before deployment. At Adepticon a few years ago, I had a DH player want to add the 'height' of a hill (size 3) to the 'height' of his models (2) to be size 5 and see over forests. Fortunately, we discussed it pre-game and just settled on something (my teammate and I were of the "forests block LOS, they're area terrain, and trace true LOS from the top of the hill" opinion) - I forget what exactly was agreed upon, but they weren't shooting from hills over the forests and our drop pods (approximately FW size), and that was what mattered.

dietrich wrote:I'd suggest you make sure you discuss it with your opponents before deployment.

Always ALWAYS do this.

It is always better to have a friendly chat pregame to hash out minor details, pregame nither party is influenced in their opinion based on where their models are currently placed or similar and thus you will 99% of the time come to a quick and fair decition.

If you just jump in and get stuck mid game I would sugest to go for the dice if you cant come to an agreement in under 5min.

It simply isnt worth a longer argument, whatever the dice roll decides is the law for the remainder of the game and if you feel it was wrong bring it upp after the game after you have gracefully accepted praise for so utterly destroying your oponent (or congratulated the winner on superior skill).

Try not to make it sound like "I just lost cos of..." but bring it upp somthing like "Now that we have the time I think we should look into ...".

After all noone is having fun in a heated argument that stops the game in its track.

Be sure to get a laser pointer if you don't already own one.

With a steady hand, you can nearly always get LOS to a target.

This is why I think some version of Magic Cylinder should be declared as Tournament Standard.

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:question: when it says you measure LOS from the "model's eye view", where exactly on the model (let's say a space marine) do you draw that line from? if you say "the eyes", then what do you do if the model is instead a converted chaos lord with twelve heads situated all over the body? if you say "anywhere on the body of the model", can you measure from a space marine's banner (and lets assume it reaches higher than a rhino is tall)?

If you got 12 heads, pick one, it doesn't matter that much. However, remember that seeing the model's head is enough to shoot at them so if a head is in position to draw line of sight to an enemy, that enemy will also be able to draw line of sight back. As far as the banner goes, I doubt that the space marine has eyes on his banner. The easiest way to do this sort of thing is to invest in a $5 laser pointer (the smaller the better) and hold it on the fireing model's shoulders. Anything the laser pointer can hit is in line of sight. Note: you may need someone to hold up something in front of area terrain if any might be getting in the way.

i see, thanks ^^

another more silly question: what do you do in the case where your opponent has models with moving parts? Defiler legs are a lesser example, but what about a conversion of a chaos dreadnought with moving arms, to the point where they can be positioned to fire at things they normally wouldn't be able to? (and then moved back down afterwards...) would you typically try to agree with your opponent that the model must have a "fixed pose" at the start of the game that isn't allowed to change? what if this is too difficult to accomplish (defiler legs are annoying and not well-hinged )? and if you don't agree to that, is it illegal in any way for your opponent to abuse the rules then to his advantage?

*edit* i ask this because i know a person who likes to make realllly wacky Ork conversions, namely dreadnoughts, with all sorts of moving parts.

Moving parts aren't covered by the rules. That means the rules don't allow you to change the shape of your models during the game.

But again, this is something you definitely should discuss with your opponent if you think it will be an issue.

Our Adepticon FAQ specifically prohibits players from changing the shape of their models during the game (except for removing the flying base when a skimmer is immobilized or destroyed).

Moving parts...

I would alow moving parts as long as you do not use them first to gain an advantage and then alter the position to not be exposed.

Thus I would be perfectly ok with a model shifting his weight to get a LOS as long as the model remains shifted untill I can retalitate.

Having played quite a bit of mordheim we simply called this the "if you can shoot you can be shot at" rule and simply meens that you may opt to lean out of a window to fire a weapon but that the model for the oponents turn is considered to remain leaning out and thus can be shot at...

Thus for tournaments I would simply put in the rule Yakface outlines, ie a model may not change during the game.

I should bring up that ,ore common than changing the shape of a model to gain a LOS advantage in games (or tournaments) is the practice of changing the shape of the model to gain extra disembarking distance (such as lowering the back door of a Chimera and then measuring 2" from the back edge of the door).


Again, this isn't supported by the rules and therefore should not be allowed.

What about rotating a turret or sponsoon? Technically this is changing the shape of the model.

skyth wrote:What about rotating a turret or sponsoon? Technically this is changing the shape of the model.

Rotating a turret or sponson is shown in the rulebook as how you determine LOS with the weapon. From the description I think he's talking about leaning an entire model or stretching out an arm past the distance that a simple rotate would accomplish.