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Because building one new army at a time isn't enough... What are the general thoughts on Guard armies now days? My first thoughts are I love the Kasrikin (sp?) figs and the idea of running a Grenadier and Storm Trooper heavy army could be interesting.

Well the IG are a more numberous foe now, with the armies usuallt based on puttin as many humans on the board as the points cost allows.
I think stormtrooper heavy armies are very interesting, they have great Bs and their saves are not terrible. They just stand and shoot, unless you add the hardened fighters doctrine in which the ws goes up to 4.

Guard armies tend to come in three flavors these days. I'd say they're all equally competitive, although drop-troop guard, being the gimmicky choice, are probably the least so. That said, none of these armies are likely to win on a consistent basis against the newer 'dexes. We'll see what 5th edition brings...

1) Inquisitors+Guard. You can do some really, really cool stuff by combining your imperial guard as either a core for a heavily DH/WH army or using DH/WH in conjunction with your primarily IG force. Both options expand the universe for IG, because suddenly doing things like having a land raider running around with your three lemans, or having the most bada$$ terminators in the game standing in for counter-assault or shock attack in your IG gunline... Obviously, I'm a big fan of this combo. These armies can turn out beautiful on the tabletop too!

2) Your standard Tanks+Guard. Armor is emphasized in this list, and generally speaking, the more the better. Often seen in these lists are multiple hellhounds, always 3 russes, a handful of sentinels and usually a few stormtrooper/grenadier/armored fist squads in chimeras. Some players opt to drop the chimeras and go with more footsoldiers backed up by the rock-hard armor. At this point it's mostly preference. A very consistent, if not overpowerful, army.

3) The all-infantry guard. The only way for this list to really be competitive at this point is to make good use of deep-striking veteran squads armed to the teeth with special weaponry. The more traditional "heh...try and kill my 180 odd guys" army is probably the weakest choice, competitively speaking, but many diehards still stick with this.

4) I didn't intend to include them, but as I was typing I remembered the Catachans. They're a wacky list, and I have no idea how available their models are now, but I see them broken out for the odd friendly game... (edit: Honestly, are catachans even valid at GW tourneys anymore? I never bothered to check...)

Mech guard with three squads of grenadiers has performed pretty well. should work better with filth.

gdurant wrote:Mech guard with three squads of grenadiers has performed pretty well. should work better with filth.

Everything works better with filth.

Dead Horse wrote:

gdurant wrote:Mech guard with three squads of grenadiers has performed pretty well. should work better with filth.

Everything works better with filth.

Except Nurgle, which is kind of counter intuitive, since you would think he'd work the best of anyone with more of it, but for some reason it's just not true.

All-Infantry Guard armies are gimmick armies, but they're a gimmick that keeps on working.

You throw 170-220 models on the table, and your opponent will have to use their Lascannons, Bright Lances and Railguns to kill 6 point Guardsmen all game. Not effective for them, wonderful for you.

And you have so many damned models that you can survive casualties. Who cares if you take 90% casualties if you meet your objectives. The only thing you do need for an AIG army is Drop Troops, so that you have some ability to manouvre. So come the next Guard Codex in 2-3 years, that ability will be gone.


Mixed armies are still probably the best, just because they can handle anything and most people are so utterly petrified by Russes that they forget that there's far more dangerous things hidden inside the squads.

MechInf is fun, but you've got to know what you're doing. You'll probably have 5 squads + 2 Command, and that's a lot of points. The MathHammer is easier to work out for MechInf, but you have to know how to play more than you do with regular Guard. Not an easy army to come to grips with.

Inquisition/Guard is fun, but I prefer my pure Inquisition army. 6 squads of Stormies in Chimeras may not be any good, but damn is it fun!

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote: Who cares if you take 90% casualties if you meet your objectives.

I find this very amusing when combined with your avatar pic.

H.B.M.C. wrote: Inquisition/Guard is fun, but I prefer my pure Inquisition army. 6 squads of Stormies in Chimeras may not be any good, but damn is it fun!

I've not done up much math yet, but my general thoughts on starting points were 3 units of DS/Infiltrating Storm Troopers, 3 units of Grenadiers, and 2 units of Inquistorial Storm Troopers in Rhinos. Gives some good mobility for the basic troopers, and should leave room for the HQ and Heavy Support, although I'd like to try to squeeze in a Rough Riders squad, just to I can model em as Storm Troopers on Bikes.

@Bartholomew001 i don't think fighters doctrine well apply to stormtroops or grenadier ?? i could be wrong
@Aduro i like the grenadiers as troops i have been using these set up for a couple months and i like it, add a a couple AC squads or HB squad to a HQ there is some more fire power down range my 2 cents

I love playing IG, they are a very fun army.

I like to go with a tank heavy list with drop troops. I have had a lot of success going that route. With Gaurd if you are going to do anything, you have to have lots of that thing. For example, if you want tanks, take 6 or dont take any. Imperial tanks suck in 4th and so you need to have a lot of them to get any reuslts out of them. However when you do take a bunch of them, you overload your opponants ability to destroy them and so you can really deliver a solid blow turn after turn.

drop troops are flipping awesome. I have won so many games on turn three when the majority of my army drops in and just anihilates everything. You hit your opponant so hard the turn you drop in that they often cant do anything back. The only problem with this is that if you scatter poorly or have units come in one at a time or in small groups, you dont get even close to the same effect. but if you can use your impoved comms to get a majority drop on turn two or three you can put down so many special weapons that the results can be devastating.

as for using DH allies, the inquisitor is a must for the pyschic hood, emperor's tarrot and the assasin. The callidus is worth her weight in gold. the ability to move a unit is just great and neutralizing one key enemy unit in a game is just too good.

if the rumors are true about 5th edition, Gaurd will kick ass until the new dex comes out. Knowing if you will go first or second is a HUGE benefit for gaurd. if you know you will go first you can cover all firing lanes knowing that you wont get hammered on the first go. Or, if you are going second you can keep your boys in reserve and drop everything and drive your tanks on as you please, which helps a ton. The only draw back would be only infantry scoring as in my experiance, most of my infantry dont survive the game and my tanks usually end up taking the objectives. Hopefully GW wont get rid of doctrines compeltely and still allow abilities like drop troops and hardened vets in some fashion.

I agree with you thatt the harskin models are brilliant, but hardened vets are just flat out better. I would just use the karskins as hardened vets if i was you.

I have the guard codex, but not an inquisition one, so I was wondering how good a vindicare assassin is. And what else do I need to take them (do I need inquisitors or something)?

I'm starting a themed guard army based on the Soviet union. Storm troopers= spetsnaz, commisars= kommisariats, using valhallan figures because they look the same as russian uniforms etc.
My idea is that the Vindicare is a russian secret agent, and inquisitors could be the politovskis or whatever they were called who made sure that the army did what the party wanted.

But I'm rambling. Great topic, helpful for us newbies.

You need an Inq Lord to take an Assassin. (An Elite Inq unlocks it, but then you have no slot to take the Assassin.)

The Vindicare itself is pretty meh. He can produce some amazing results, but with only as many shots as there are turns, and with his normal shots only wounding on a 4+, it's quite a gamble.

See Stelek's two recent posts on Guard Armies on the Army Lists forum. Guard Armies have not been posting good battle scores on the GT circut in the past year.

Problems

1. Objectives vs. Points for killing the enemy: It matters if you take 90% casualties if there are no points, or minimal points for objectives.

2. Tanks: Outranged by Tau. Not as mobile as skimmers. AV 14 is great, but you may see Eldar packing 3 fire prisms for just that reason...

3. Tanks: not as mobile as skimmers, you are less likely to get first shot.

4. Las Gun vs. Fleeting Units- at one time the phrase 'las gun love' was used to indicate the killing power of 120-180 lasguns firing at enemy units as they came in. You can test the theory by taking a few units of Gaunts or Genestealers and seeing if the gun line can hold. I don't think the gun line holds even if there is little terrain.

5.Tau Pirhana-bye bye armored fist squads.

6. Armored Company not always tournament legal.

So, what's left?
1. Realize that Heavy Weapons kill troops.

1. Wait for 5th edition. If the penetration rules are changed, then your tanks may be harder to kill. I'm not sure yet what the final 'screening' rules will be. Will you be able to do a 'Texas Two Step', screen your heavy weapons behind conscripts in the enemy turn, then unveil them in your turn?

2. Pseudo Armor Company-see Stelek's post. Two inquisitor Landraiders, 3 LR battle tanks, 3 Hellhounds....

3. Last Chancers-I don't own the most recent codex, but apparently you CAN get 10 missile launchers in a Last Chancer unit...

4. All Infantry and Drop Troops with Last Chancers and drop troops-posted by Stelek. Amazing amounts of heavy weapons. Stelek says that in general 'gimmick armies don't work in 40k', and I hate to say it, but this looks like a gimmick army to me. Quesiton, are yougoing to use it at a GT, where players may not have considered the possibility vs.your FLGS where opponents will realize over a few months that this is what you usually bring.

Personally I think the 2 Land Raider, 3 LRus. tanks looks interesting under either edition......

Aduro wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote: Who cares if you take 90% casualties if you meet your objectives.

I find this very amusing when combined with your avatar pic.

I like to imagine that HBMC IS in fact the fellow in his avatar pic. I envision him striding around the FLGS of Australia, packing the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the Departmento Munitorum's Guide and a bolt pistol he uses to execute for cowardice any IG players who consider giving up IG in favor of 'nizilla.

For the Emperor!

How viable is using 2 LRs, 3 Russes and a few hell hounds or something do you think HBMC? I was thinking I wanted to have a melee Inquisitor with power weapon packed retinue in a landraider pimp sled, then maybe some GK termies in another, then use all sorts of guard type tanks. Sort of silly, but maybe a lot of fun too. (At least the game would be over fast...) Is this at all viable pre-filth? I never really used Russes before, or had them used much against me, so I don't know how well they could stand up before the second turn charge etc.

There is no such thing as a melee inquisitor.

Really. S3 isn't melee, it's

"hope-I-wound-and-I-better-go-first"


Which you generally don't with your retinue, so you get your face owned. :(

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You need an Inq Lord to take an Assassin. (An Elite Inq unlocks it, but then you have no slot to take the Assassin.)

I've seen plenty of witchhunter inquisitors bringing demonhunter assassins. That'd be 2 elite slots.


I was just on a really big guard kick... got really tired of playing around with an old codex that wasn't really even powerful the day it came out at the end of 3rd edition.

I'm in agreement mostly with elios, although HBMCs counter-point about all infantry guard I agree with more...

I see guard as...

Standard Guard - 5 tanks, no transports, the rest in infantry platoons (las/plas recommended). With some light deep striking from special weapon squads and unneeded command squads

That type of list is solid and consistent. You'll never win more than 3 games at a GT with a decent turnout, unless you happen to get very lucky on matchups.

Standard Guard with tricks - Same list but lighter on infantry and adding an inquisitor with a hood and a callidus assassin

slightly better. Will run a lot better in tourneys. Still low tier on power level.

All Infantry guard - no doctrine, no dropping, heavy weapons platoons spam. 30+ heavy weapons and 160+ models.

I used to run this, and have run it at RTTs. It's very tough for some armies to counter. It has some serious weaknesses to certain objective based games. Worth thinking about if you have seen the tourneys objectives prior to the games.

All Infantry with tricks - slightly less guard, slightly less heavy weapons, cheap drop troops more for objective grabbing than for killing

Same list as above, just less shooty and less succeptable to losing purely based on mobility missions.

Mechanized infantry - 5 chimeras, 2 hellhounds, 3 russes, and some inconsequential infantry units

this one I've never tried. Conceptually it makes sense. but I haven't seen a lot of the regular guard players here raving about it. which leads me to believe that it isn't magically a top tier army. Other than that, I can't speak to its effectiveness.


I am looking forward to revisiting the guard tactica when they get a new book. Until then they are a really fun and successful apocalypse army for me. And look pretty on my shelf. I'm not all that enthusiastic on how they will translate into 5th edition. Transports and assault got just enough of a boost to really just laugh at the ALREADY overcosted and under-gunned guardsmen.

Sorry for the grim assessment. But i'm hoping their might still be time to save you from going down a dark road.

Shep:

I've seen plenty of witchhunter inquisitors bringing demonhunter assassins. That'd be 2 elite slots.

Really? Yeah, I see plenty of cheating, too.

Seriously though, there's a case to be made both ways, but I find that when you actually want to play a game, your time is better spent playing the game than having an unnecessary argument that will in all likelihood end in accusations of cheating anyway. Better to accept the extra cost and use the 100% guaranteed legal option IMO.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Shep:

I've seen plenty of witchhunter inquisitors bringing demonhunter assassins. That'd be 2 elite slots.

Really? Yeah, I see plenty of cheating, too.

Seriously though, there's a case to be made both ways, but I find that when you actually want to play a game, your time is better spent playing the game than having an unnecessary argument that will in all likelihood end in accusations of cheating anyway. Better to accept the extra cost and use the 100% guaranteed legal option IMO.

Agreed... Although you and I may be a minority in being opposed to gaming the system and using rules interpretations as an advantage. I'd never do it... And I wouldn't dock anyone for doing it either. Guard needs all the love it can get.

Stelek wrote:There is no such thing as a melee inquisitor.

Really. S3 isn't melee, it's

"hope-I-wound-and-I-better-go-first"


Which you generally don't with your retinue, so you get your face owned. :(

In general I agree with you, but I am trying something new since I got some cool models. The general plan is:
Inq Lord with Power Stake (power weapon, wounds psykers on 2+)
Familier
2 Acolytes with Mancatcher, Carapace armor
1 Acolyte with ccw, combi flamer (maybe... late spur of the moment adition)
1-2 CC Servitor with Powerfist and CCW
1-2 Crusader hencmen (power weapon, ccw, 4+ inv. save)
2 Medics

General idea is to pop out, remove two attacks by way of the acolytes, then have 7 or so St3 power weapon attacks, then 10 St3 non power weapon attacks, then ~6 St6 power weapon attacks. 1 wound on the Inq can be ignored by way of the medics, and the Acolyte with the combi-flamer can take another in the face. If the enemy is a psyker, well, they are in trouble.

Like I said, not super scary, but it should be fun a bit. Plus, I get a landraider, which just looks like a lot of fun.

Medics don't work in CC is the general rule of thumb.

Marines will simply beat you down with I4 attacks before you attack.

Xenos armies will cripple you as most of those are I5.

It's not a good unit because it's so damn slow and does nothing to T5+ creatures except make them laugh at you.

So, have fun but keep in mind what I said.

Apothecaries work if they are not in base to base. Medics don't make any distinctions between in or our of CC.

Inq. Lord with Familer = I5. (still not too exciting though.)
Xenos: yea screwed. Fortunately 90% of my Xenos games are tau.

Not too slow when it pops out of a Landraider.

Target priority is important though, and T5=EEEEK RUN! (Unless it is a DP with psychic powers. Then it is go time.)

So, it seems I'd have to conform to a template to have a viable guard army. Bugger that, I'll stick with my theme and get my arse handed to me. Losing FTW!

I heard somewhere you could, for the hell of it, take a culexus assassin and all the last chancer psykers possible to power him up.

Teh_K42 wrote:Losing FTW!

Teh_K42, you just made my morning with that quote!

Yea, you can spit out like 18 shots with the Culexus with the Last Chancers. Takes like 250 points or something just in Chancer's though. I don't remember off hand, but it is a good bit, but probably a lot of fun in Apoc when you can have say 4 Culexus to benefit

A stormtrooper army, will be pretty expensive aswell. But other than that, there are a lot of advantages. You can use it along with Inqisitors, and you do not have to paint a painfull lot of guys. Not to mention that most of your units will have a great statline, superior weapons, and weapon options (Plasmaguns, anyone?).
Mount them in Chimeras, to make up for the lack of HW, and your good to go.

I hate the amount of Guard, IG players have to paint!
I love stormtroopers, they have pretty good arma and their weapons are some much better than Lasguns.

The best thing i did, for my Inquisitors i made was make a non-GK army, with about 30 stormtroopers. LOL