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The rumored "Run" rule (any unit of infantry may move d6 inches in the shooting phase instead of shooting, but cannot assault out of a run) sounds nasty when used with large horde armies such as Orks. Imagine 180 Orks (6 x 30) lining up 12 inches onto a table top. Turn 1 they move 6" forward during movement and then d6" during the shooting phase. Turn 2 they move forward 6" and then Waaaagh! in the shooting phase, thus gaining fleet-of-foot. They fleet d6" and then assault another 6" during the assault phase. Effectively 180 Orks have travelled 20" at minimum up to 30" maximum to get into assault on turn 2.

Granted, the smart player sees 180 Orks and sets up as deep into his deployment zone as possible hoping to get as many rounds of shooting as possible. It is still 180 Orks moving potentially 30" in 2 turns.

How does one stop this?

Combine this with the rumored assault casualty removal coming from anywhere in the unit (thus negating high initiative figs from killing all enemies within a killzone to reduce strikes back) and you have what is effectively fearless units (until they get below 10) and even shooting seems pointless.

Am I mis-interpreting the rule hear or possibly over exagerating the potential?

Well, you are overestimating their speed. If all 6 units roll 6s every fleet roll (which is what you proposed), then they're still only slightly past halfway across the board. With more average rolls, we're definitely looking at more of a third/fourth turn charge. Not to mention, logistically, It will be almost impossible for the Ork player to bring all 6 squads to bear simultaneously.

I do think they'll be 'top tier'. But it's more to do with the new missions than run.

-Leo037

Well it's a combination of the new missions AND run.

Basically they will be able to get Turn 2 charges if the opponent is also moving forward to capture objectives.

You could always try a mechanized approach to negate some of this. Set up broadwise, high tail it to a flank, deal with the units piecemeal.

That is why I like Lash of Submission so much. Just push the 2nd and 3rd closest mobs back 2d6 inches each turn and shoot up/assault away one mob at a time.

The problem I see with run is that the d6 distance per unit will cause your units to get strung out which results in:
1. Hitting the enemy line piecemeal
2. Spending a turn sitting within rapid fire range to get all your units on line for the charge

Well, I believe that this will be negated by the Ork weakness against vehicles compounded by the new glancing rules. Armies will be able to use transports like rhinos to block charges with less risk, and tough vehicles like Land Raiders will be pretty much invincible bringers of pain to any horde army.

So what's a good counter for

2 Bike Warbosses w/upgrades and PK
6x30 Shoota Boyz, 3 Rokkits, Nob w/PK

18 S8 AP3 shots, 312 S4 shots with an effective range of 24''. Will drop 24 Marines in one round of shooting on average.

I think Horde Orks will be better as shoota boyz tho. They still out CC most armies and will also outshoot them too on a pts basis. Will rely on power klaws for anything that isn't killed by the shooting.

ummm well how bout 1 autrauch and as many 10 man direavenger squads with transports that get out unleash 30 shots each get back in and run off followed by rinse and repeat kinda thing

I realize that 5th ed is not out yet but in the tourney this weekend I faced an all ork horde with my KOS orks list and being able to dictate where and when any assault/charge happend was huge! I believe that at first you will see a large number of ork hordes at tourneys and do fairly well (more to do with troops being able to hold objectives then the run rule IMO) but the numbers will quickly taper off as who wants to lose two buckets of sweat on a saturday? lol but that just my 2 cents..

All hordes have the same weaknesses, lack of mobility.

Compound that with mobile armies often having alot of firepower, and you will see canny players taking the fight to only part of the enemy horde.

It's called 'defeat in detail' for the wannabe strategist out there. Look it up, it'll do ya a world of good!

except vehicles are getting a major reduction in mobility (especially those that like to shoot) while infantry are getting a boost.

IntoTheRain wrote:except vehicles are getting a major reduction in mobility (especially those that like to shoot) while infantry are getting a boost.

Hmmm, let me see.

If I have a fast open-topped vehicle with a rokkit, and I move 12 inches, can I:

Move 12" and fire my rokkit.
Dismount and assault with my boyz.

4th edition answer: Yes to both.
5th edition answer: Yes to both.

Wait a minute--do you mean Imperial vehicles got the nerf bat?

Oh, don't care. The few I own aren't affected (Hellhounds and Leman Russes).

So the reality is, slowpoke assault troops are getting a boost...sort of.

Will this mean much in the grand scheme of things?

For Tyranid warrior swarms, yes.
For blood angels players, yes.

For most other players and armies? Not really.

As much as things change, they remain the same.

Horde has a few major weaknesses. First, the large footprint means you spend most of the game slogging through difficult terrain. Second, the need to spread out to avoid templates means you are on a very broad front, and a canny opponent can use refused flank on you easily. Third, it's quite hard, when that spread out to get mobs to support each other.
None of these things mean that the horde is weak, just that it is less powerful than people tend to think.
What is more significant for the horde is the change to the unit firing rules to allow the entire unit to fire if any of them are in range (if I'm reading it right). Before, that was problem number 4: All the maths assume the entire mob will be in range, which rarely happens, and almost never with an intact mob. With that change, it looks like Ork mob's large footprint will actuallly be an advantage, spreading their threat area quite significantly.

Although it seems like in the UK GT hordes of shootas are never going to be top tier: They ain't letting them take power klaws with shoota boys.

Alot of my math was based around the new unit firing rules actually and not giving them a PK nob is actually quite a big nerf to the shoota horde as now they might actually lose to marines in CC.

It's a big relief for my Plague Marines tho. There was previously no way to outshoot or outassault them pts for pts. Now they can outshoot the sluggas and outassault the shootas.

Da Boss wrote:
What is more significant for the horde is the change to the unit firing rules to allow the entire unit to fire if any of them are in range (if I'm reading it right).

You are incorrect. Models still have to be in range and line of sight to shoot. What has changed is that models don't have to be in range or line of sight ot be removed as casualties from a squad. So if I can see 1 guy in an enemy squad, all my models with line of sight and range to that 1 guy can fire, but the entire squad that guy is in can be killed. Makes it a lot harder to minimize casualties via blockign line of sight. On the other hand, it eliminates range and line of sight snipeing.

Don't forget you will also be running into yourselves. Units can't pass through other units. If the unit in the front only gets a 1 or a 2 for their "run", the unit behind them will also only be allowed that 1 or 2 inches as they can't pass through the unit in front of them. Especially how close large units tend to stick together.

While this may not always be the case, I can see a large bottleneck happening in most games. Especially if the opposing player really concentrates on one side of the table.

Well I'm not sure how much of the rumored Kill point changes are true but if that's not in consideration having Snikrot, Lootas and Stormboyz really cuts horde size down to manageable levels.

IntoTheRain wrote:except vehicles are getting a major reduction in mobility (especially those that like to shoot) while infantry are getting a boost.

Agreed. It's a relative nerf to vehicles from both sides. It's freaking ridiculous to see infantry running as fast as tanks. I don't care if rolling 6 is rare- even two turns of 3" extra movement breaks the ruleset on a 6'x4' table. I'm definitely playing on 4'x8' in 5th, as it's the only way to compensate for infantry that are at least 50% more mobile than they used to be. Vehicles should be worth something more than their armor value, damnit.

As Stelek points out, the Run rule doesn't really hurt Ork vehicles that badly (oddly enough, just like every rule in 5th edition with the possible exception of blast templates). Everyone else but Necrons is getting screwed. And IG tanks lists who don't mind sitting there... being boring... for a whole game.

On a tangential note, I still hate the "I can see one model, and can thus kill the other 34" shooting rule that Pheonix and Da Boss are discussing. Sniping wasn't that much of a problem, and was pretty much allowed for in the rules with the otherwise over-protective rules for special troopers within squads.

These rules are two more reasons for a relatively simple rules patch for 5th to be worked up by fans as soon as the likely-sucktastic rules come out. If that patch gets put into an edited scan of the rulebook and distributed widely on the internet to screw GW for releasing crappy rules (by persons unscrupulous and awesome), so much the better. Not that I would advocate for such a thing on a well-behaved forum like Dakka, but wouldn't it be interesting if that happened.

Hmm I will be looking forward to the 5e Ork list with

KFF Mek
9 Kans
Snikrot Kommandos
90 Boyz

Everything can run and the kans have 5+ invuln and are immune to bolters .

Won't it be funny when we have to use Comp scores at tourneys to _force_ people to take elite units that add some character back into the game?

I'm not looking forward to every game involving 100+ identical models, and an entire extra phase for rolling Run moves.

Damnit 6 maxed out troop choices. How beardy lol.