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Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






With imperial guard heavy weapons teams is the imperial player aloud to slide wounds around to avoid removing the heavy weapons? I know with most things this isnt allowed but my opponet stated that an imperial weapons team is just a squad of six imperial guard with three special/heavy weapons and three lasguns and as for the rules in the BGB the defending player is allowed to choose which models in the squad he gets to take the wounds on.

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Why wouldn't it be allowed?

The 6 man Heavy Weapons squad is made up of 3 teams of 2 models. To silence each weapon, you need to kill both crew for that weapon... but since they are all part of the same squad, the owning player is indeed allowed to take casualties in the unit from wherever he likes (following the usual casualty removal rules, of course).

So if the unit takes 3 casualties, it's perfectly legal to remove the 3 lasgun-toting models and keep firing with all 3 heavies.

 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






yeah i suppose your right...it just doesnt seem right for a moment. why take a team if one man can operate the gun just fine on his own? you know? they should at least be immoble. lets face it a little guardsman cant lug around a big old lascannon on his own . thanks for clearing it up though

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/02/25 03:11:36


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Hades wrote:why take a team if one man can operate the gun just fine on his own?


Because it makes them a little more durable. You have to kill two guys to silence the weapon instead of the usual one.

 
   
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NJ

Hades wrote:lets face it a little guardsman cant lug around a big old lascannon on his own


That's why there's 2 in a team
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Actually, rules-wise, a little Guardsman is more than capable of lugging around a big old Lascannon on his own.

That's why there is no reduction in efficiency when things get down to 1 man per gun.

But the stupid Administratum decreed that each Lascannon is a 2-man team.

So that is why there are 2 men per gun.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Actually a heavy weapons team is 2 lasgun toting guardsmen, 1 heavy weapon and a coupple of spare ammo packs.

Thus a unit of 3 teams that move may catually fire 6 lasgun shots.

The reason for the teams being teams of two is that while one guardsman is capable of lugging the weapon on his own the other one is carrying spare ammo.

Naturally for the purpouses of a game the weapon has enough ammo to last the whole battle but remember that an IG army does not neccesarilly go back to base and have a cup of coco and put up their feet between battles...

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Navigator




Great Land of the British Empire

Actually there is only one guardsmen in the team that actually has a lasgun. And if you move a heavy weapon team, you can only fire one lasgun per team.
The other model carrying ammo is a spotter and loader, and the amount of ammo fired in a single engagment would completely dwarf the ammo on the models.

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Bartholomew001 wrote:Actually there is only one guardsmen in the team that actually has a lasgun.


The Codex disagrees with you.


The Squad comes with lasguns. Each team is then equipped with a heavy weapon. No mention is made of this weapon replacing either of the model's lasguns.

 
   
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Woodbridge, VA

insaniak wrote:
Bartholomew001 wrote:Actually there is only one guardsmen in the team that actually has a lasgun.


The Codex disagrees with you.


The Squad comes with lasguns. Each team is then equipped with a heavy weapon. No mention is made of this weapon replacing either of the model's lasguns.


But the UK WD (#306) FAQ agrees with him...........

Also interesting to note from that same FAQ, if a Vindicare or Mindwar targets the heavy weapon carrying guardsman, the other model will contimue to fire the heavy weapon.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Long Beach, CA

I hate this argument. I used to have MAJOR problems with this in games. One person even told me that the bases could be insta killed. >( THere are NO teams in the heavy weapon squads. In the regular platoons there are "teams" in heavy weapon squads THERE ARE NO TEAMS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LOADER OR SPOTTER (Except for the last chancers the word loader is not even in the codex). For heavy weapon squads it says 6 guardsmen with 3 heavy wpns. It does not say anything about teams. You all are thinking about the infantry platoon squads where it says two guys make a team. A heavy weapon squad is not an infantry platoon so they are not teams. They are 6 guys with 3 heavy weapons and I would say 3 lasguns. It does not take 2 to move or fire otherwise it would say so; PPL who say that, are taking fluff and trying to call it rules. If IG is not stong enough for a single model to carry the HW then why can sisters do it when they are S3 as well? One answer I heard was that "thier power armor holds is up" LMAO

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/14 18:46:41


"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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I addition, dont let people give you strife if you wanna mount your hvy wpn squads on small bases. The FAQ says "treat them as separate models" the larger base is included ONLY FOR EASE OF MOVEMENT.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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smart_alex wrote: In the regular platoons there are "teams" in heavy weapon squads THERE ARE NO TEAMS.


I'm curious as to how you reach that conclusion.



THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LOADER OR SPOTTER


That much at least is correct.


smart_alex wrote:I addition, dont let people give you strife if you wanna mount your hvy wpn squads on small bases. The FAQ says "treat them as separate models" the larger base is included ONLY FOR EASE OF MOVEMENT.


Can you provide a rule that states that models based together for convenience of movement may ignore the usual base size rules?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/14 18:59:05


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Long Beach, CA

Here is a still of the FAQ


So in order to treat them as separate models you must count each as having a 1" base.


Also, have you read the codex recently. I will re read it again just to make double sure i dont put my foot in my mouth. I would now but its out in my trunk. I am almost sure that it mentions two making a team in the infantry platoon section. Where as in the wpn squads it says 6 guards men with 3 hvy wpns.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

Because I'm waiting for paint to dry and have my IG codex on my desk:

Pg. 38, IG Codex: "Number/squad: Six Guardsmen forming three heavy weapon crews."

That's under each Support Squad(Fire Support, Anti-Tank, Mortar) type on pg. 38. Pg. 39, with the Special Weapons Support Squad, says: "Number/squad: Six Guardsmen."

Also, pg. 44, under Infantry Squads: "Options: Two Guardsmen may form a single heavy weapon crew."

Both form Heavy Weapon Crews.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2008/03/15 23:44:51


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





But you could have 2 one man crews and 1 four man crew
   
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smart_alex wrote:So in order to treat them as separate models you must count each as having a 1" base.



...

Sorry, you've lost me.

How does 'treat them as seperate models' equal 'treat them as seperate models on 1" bases'?


And once again, can you provide a rule that states that models based together for convenience of movement may ignore the usual base size rules?


Also, have you read the codex recently.


Yes. Unless it's something that I'm absolutely sure about, I generally make a point of checking the rule in question before contradicting someone.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Long Beach, CA



What other size base would they have if they were separate models? It says they are based together for convenience of movement, meaning it still doesnt count as thier base. Becuase its used for conveniece of movement. Similar to the way the rule in the ork book adresses decorative models. THis is only for convenience.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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smart_alex wrote:What other size base would they have if they were separate models?


The one they are provided with.


It says they are based together for convenience of movement,


Yes... not 'only convenience of movement'... which is what you appear to be reading it as saying.


meaning it still doesnt count as thier base.


Why not?


Becuase its used for conveniece of movement.


How does them giving a reason for having a particular base (which is not given as the only reason, just as a reason) over-ride the usual base size rules?

If GW had said that Dreadnoughts are based on a 60mm base just because they wouldn't fit on a smaller base, would that make it legal to base them on a smaller base if you model them with one leg up in the air?

Obviously not.

The reason for a model to have a particular base is completely irrelevant. The rules make no exception for models supplied with a particular base for any specific reason. If the model is supplied with a 60mm base then a 60mm base is, so far as the rules are concerned, the smallest base on which that model may be placed.


THis is only for convenience.


And again, the word 'only' does not appear in that FAQ answer.

 
   
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Stalwart Skittari




Wit' dem umies in da good battle

... why do they put 2 guys behind the lascannon if just 1 can opperate it... I dont get it... I'll stick with ''Da Good old rulez ''

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insaniak wrote:
smart_alex wrote:So in order to treat them as separate models you must count each as having a 1" base.



...

Sorry, you've lost me.

How does 'treat them as seperate models' equal 'treat them as seperate models on 1" bases'?


And once again, can you provide a rule that states that models based together for convenience of movement may ignore the usual base size rules?
I LOST IT TOO!

Also, have you read the codex recently.


Yes. Unless it's something that I'm absolutely sure about, I generally make a point of checking the rule in question before contradicting someone.

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Long Beach, CA

well then what is your definition of treating them as separate models? Separate models have different bases do they or do they not? Does the FAQ say to treat them as separate models or not?

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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smart_alex wrote:well then what is your definition of treating them as separate models? Separate models have different bases do they or do they not? Does the FAQ say to treat them as separate models or not?



For myself, treating them as separate models means they are two independent entities with separate characteristics that are both mounted on the same base. This is in contrast to swarm bases which have multiple models on a single base but only a single set of characteristics.

That means stuff like: if the Heavy Weapon base is in base contact with the enemy than both models count as being in base contact. If the Heavy Weapon base is fully covered by a blast than both models count as being fully covered, if the base is only partially covered then both models count as being partially covered by the blast, etc.


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smart_alex wrote:well then what is your definition of treating them as separate models?


It means that they are treated as seperate models. Yakface summed up what this means rules-wise.


Separate models have different bases do they or do they not?


There's no particular reason for them to have seperate bases, no. And actually putting them on seperate bases forces you to create house rules to govern how the team actually works... see the argument a little while back on Eldar Heavies and coherency for a look at the problems this sort of thing causes.

Basing them together gets around those problems nicely.

 
   
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Long Beach, CA

Well whatever. Having them on separate bases has solved more problems than it has caused. This way when I remove models people dont look as perplexed as to why I am killing the lasgunners. When I put them on the large bases like I used to people would look at me funny when I would put a wound marker on each base. Then the arguement would always ensue that I need to remove models, blah blah.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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Ah, one of the great 40k debates. Bases. Especially amongst the IG models. GW has been pretty inconsistant with base sizes. They say "the base it comes with" but they have many different bases coming with the same basic model/option. For instance, the old Cadian missile launchers come with one long square base and one round base, then the Steel Legion missile launcher team comes with two round bases while the new Cadian and Catachan missile launchers come with the massive round base. Then the old heavy weapons (still available from GW, but the old style) such as mortars, heavy bolters, autocannons, and lasscannons do not come with a base at all!

Pretty much, at my local hobby shop, we say "what ever fits." You wouldn't try to put and Ogryn on a 25mm, but you can put them on the massive bases if you want. With other armies, such as Space Marine Terminators, they allow the little bases or the medium ones, most people opt for the little bases as they fit in boxes better and move on the board better. But, GW wants them on the medium bases.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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Richmond, VA

Okay, so gist of the rule: IG Heavy Weapons Squads must be on one 60mm base?
   
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There is no actual standing to make you go out an buy big bases for your models, there is also no standing to stop you from putting them on seperate smaller bases. The large bases are an option for you to use for ease of movement.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Long Beach, CA

exactly, I even said that at an RTT once when a table haunter showed up and said it was illegal what I was doing. Then I said what if they were steel legieon. Why do thier ML have the small bases? He said that those were illegal now. WTF?! I really believe that the only reason that the HW are on large bases is because some designer thought it would look cool. No other reason. Then now after the fact they have realized the problems it was caused due to the whole "bases supplied must be used" thing.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
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Since GW supplies a multitude of bases for the same units, the option is open to you. Using the large bases is allowed, using the small bases is allowed, and using the long rectangle bases are also allowed. That is, if you follow the rule book.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
 
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