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It doesn't seem too many people play the Captured Standards and BSB's that is detailed in the rulebook.

AMP187 wrote:It doesn't seem too many people play the Captured Standards and BSB's that is detailed in the rulebook.

You mean the 100 pts per captured standard? We do that at my store. Not many people use BSB's so it hasn't really come up.

AMP187 wrote:It doesn't seem too many people play the Captured Standards and BSB's that is detailed in the rulebook.

Well, yeah we do. Why wouldn't they use Captured Standards rule? Any
specific reason?

We capture standards all the time. I love it when a new player puts a standard in a unit of ten missle troops. And we are usually trying to kill the BSB, if for no other reason than to get rid of that annoying re-roll on the break tests.

I dunno, where I play that rule is almost never used

I guess people just think its a pain in the *** o.O

Why is it a pain? You just add 100 points to the final total
at the end.

Do you guys not play with victory points at all?

The 100 VPS is supposed to discourage taking a banner every time. They are a double edged sword, and one of the reasons elite infantry units pay more for their standards than cheap fodder units.

They should be considered first and foremost after raw victory points. I see banners as just as vital/exciting about general's deaths.

I've never seen anyone not play with the capture standards = 100 victory points rule. It makes standards still useful but much less of a no brainer.

Vampire Counts now have a standard that causes wounds if you capture it. You can just drop it to prevent it eating you alvie. (Kind of an expensive kick in the teeth, add the standard's cost plus the unit you lost, just to deny the enemy 100 victory points...) so it'll likely come into style if you aren't using it and you have anyone playing VC.

Personally I'm not sure how you can play without 'captured standards'. They can litterally make or break the game. In fact, I've had more than a couple games where the standards have been the deciding factor on whether a draw became a marginal victory, or a solid victory became a massacre.

It's also why you shouldn't bring standards on small, hit and run units, like Fast Cav, a prime example being Glade Riders. Man I'd love it if they could take a standard and not just give the enemy an easy 100 vp. They might last longer than 2 turns that way...

That being said I do forget the table quarters rule quite often. Usually they're just all contested.

AlexCage wrote: Usually they're just all contested.

Often because you know that you can't necessarily win by focusing all your
attacks on a single enemy block at a time. Focused hand to hand doesn't
work if it spreads you out too thin. You understand the table quarters
rule on some level subliminally, and you play your game to make use
of it.

what a stupid rule.
i dont even remember it in 6th edition until i started playing in tournaments. its a fluff rule that pushed its way into the game and needs to leave.

now you may only see 1 or 2 banners on a table at a tournament, it looks stupid as hell,its effect is to remove banners on all but the most resilient blocks of troops, where there should be banner on just about every block of troops. especially considering there would be limited communication on the battlefield.

it punishes army's that rely on sacrificing weak troops to win, like skaven and goblins.while squads that have high strength/multi attacks dont need the +1 battle res to win combat.

its a childish rule that was not well though out. i would love to see a tournament organizer with enough balls to create a scenario that somehow punishes a unit that left its banner at home. something like "shame to fly your colors"

So it's new in 7th? I just started actually playing Fantasy
in 7th edition.

Pretty sure this was in 6th too, I've known about capturing standard for years now. And I like the rule, makes sense to me and part of the risk involved in taking standards.

As to scenarios, I read about a scenario that DOUBLES the points that standards are worth if captured, and gives a -200 VP penalty if your army has 0 standards to have captured ...

- Salvage

it punishes army's that rely on sacrificing weak troops to win, like skaven and goblins.while squads that have high strength/multi attacks dont need the +1 battle res to win combat.

I play scaven and everyone that can take a standard usually does. The same goes for my orc and goblin friends.

Standards are necessary for armies that rely on combat res to win.

They are a very cheep way to add +1 to a unit's combat res. They should have a downside.

The only guys that dont take standards are sacrificial units because with the downside it isnt worth it.

I'm with Cypher. Every block unit in all my armies that can take them, do. Small shooty units, no, but every ranked unit does.

Me and my friends use the rules used by most of the Europe mainland GTs.

1) At the end of the battle the player with the most captured banners gets +100 VP (BSB bonus VP still apply)

2) At the end of the battle the player with the most table quarters gets +250 VP

It makes Massacres really special instead of a rather common occurence and eliminates the negative points raised by jeremycobert.

Banners make an army look good and help out weedy troops, it's good to stimulate people taking them.

If we remember to think about, we play with the standard rules too. Eventhough I think capturing a banner shouldn't give too much points where the BSB seems more important. That said, I've seen many cases where they forgot things like banners and tablequarters.

I enjoy the way the rules work now. It means the option to buy a standard is just that, an option, and not a requirement. Punishing people for not taking standards would suck, and at that point you should just increase the cost of every unit and make them come with a banner automatically.

I mean, do you honestly expect the small unit of fast cav to be carrying a big bulky banner? I don't think they want to draw attention to themselves with a big flag saying "Hey! We're over here!".

That being said I absolutely LOVE that Brettonian Peasant standards don't count for victory points. Bahaha. Everyone gets a standard! Unit of 5 archers? STANDARD! Unit of sacrificial yeomen? STANDARD!

Goblin and skaven units should likely be the same way... but then again they are usually BETTER than peasants.

The 100vps for a standard has been that way at least since 6th edition. I think it was the same in 5th, though the current VP system was a variant back then.

I've never previously heard of anyone NOT using it.

The whole idea of ignoring standards is bizarre to me. That +1 CR can be HUGE. So the VP tradeoff/risk is very important.

In fun games I rarely use it just because VP are less important. And this thread actually reminds me that had I remembered to count captured Standards I would have beaten a Thorek Gunline at a tournament yesterday instead of marking it a tie. 3 captured banners to his 1 when the margin had been 50 pts. Damn I need to play fantasy more often to remember this.

Wait...

You mean to tell me there is a way to play the game other than wiping out all the other guys models ?!?

AlexCage wrote:I mean, do you honestly expect the small unit of fast cav to be carrying a big bulky banner? I don't think they want to draw attention to themselves with a big flag saying "Hey! We're over here!".

no matter where they are on the table, i can still see them with or without a banner... or are you talking about fluff reasons ? if so, then yes i think they should use banners to identify themselves so the general can tell where they are and when they are in position.
more fluff reasons against: do you really think a skaven general would be upset if a unit of slaves lost their raggedy non-magical banner ? i doubt it, as they were supposed to die anyway.

we play this game in part because of the aesthetics, banners just make the armies look much better.we're certainly not playing for the well designed rules and if you don't care how the game looks then you should be playing battleground http://www.yourmovegames.com/battleground_index.html

there needs to be a better way to add fluff into rules. 100 points per banner is fluffy nonsense.

If however the victory points were awarded based off of a % of the units cost (say 10% to make the math easy), i would be more open to the debate. a 20 man night goblin banner should not deliver that same points that a 40 man phoenix guard with a banner of sorcery does. or even some type of differential for magical/non-magical banners.

that complicates things way too much. you yourself can play that way with your gaming group, if they agree to it but overall it's a good rule. Also the reason that all banners are the same extra VP's is due to the fact that the enemy may not know how to use a magic banner of the foe, or it might not just work for them, and non magic banner all look the same to an enemy who isn't looking for differences. it's a way of the enemy saying, ha i have something that is special to you, and am holding it hostage for ransom or just simple pleasure.

I even put banners in some small shooty units like handgunners. If I know I'm going to get charged by something that will beat me, I'm dead anyway and just flee instead, die, and give up no banner.

But all sorts of stuff suddenly has that much more to think about when they charge you. Take a simple exhaulted daemon. Now he need to do 3 wounds to beat you. Not impossible with 4 attacks, but suddenly not as attractive an option. A unit of fast cav you've sniped down to 4 models has to worry about charging you.

Bastirous666 wrote:that complicates things way too much.

this is WFB not 40k, i think most of us can drop the last digit.

Bastirous666 wrote:Also the reason that all banners are the same extra VP's is due to the fact that the enemy may not know how to use a magic banner of the foe, or it might not just work for them, and non magic banner all look the same to an enemy who isn't looking for differences. it's a way of the enemy saying, ha i have something that is special to you, and am holding it hostage for ransom or just simple pleasure.

again, this is a fluff reason for a tournament rule. the truth is that we dont know why the game designers picked 100 points/per banner.i just don't believe it was very well thought out in regards to game/scenario balance.

sorry to go so far OT.

I f you don't like the rule, use a scenario instead. Not everything needs to be pitched battle.

Remember, too, that you can recapture your banners, which is great fun. I make banner markers to place near enemy units carrying my banners so I can target them.

exactly, not every game has to have banner count as VP's you could play scenarios that use objectives and such.

Recapturing banners or just killing the units which captured yours is great fun, and adds an extra tactical dimension.

Killing that unit of Blood Knights or Chosen Chaos Knights becomes even more attractive when you're not just getting the 200-300vps for killing them, but denying your opponent 100, 200, or even more points for the banners they've captured.

mauleed wrote:I even put banners in some small shooty units like handgunners. If I know I'm going to get charged by something that will beat me, I'm dead anyway and just flee instead, die, and give up no banner.

But all sorts of stuff suddenly has that much more to think about when they charge you. Take a simple exhaulted daemon. Now he need to do 3 wounds to beat you. Not impossible with 4 attacks, but suddenly not as attractive an option. A unit of fast cav you've sniped down to 4 models has to worry about charging you.

That's clever. I've thought about putting standards in my Glade Guard units as they are susceptible to even weak hth units. If they get charged by light cav or single models they can stand an take it and if they get charged by Heavy Cav they can just flee as they'd be dead anyway.

I may have to try this out...

Thanks!

Ozymandias, King of Kings