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I played this list yesterday (for the second time) versus a godzilla list (7 MC/2 thropes and 32 genestealers) @1750 and lost. The elite devourer fexes really chewed me up. I think the problem was that I held 2 term squads in reserve and they didn't come in until round three. I also did not get the first turn in either game. I am going to give the list another go as I made some mistakes that I can easily correct and learned some strategy during the game I didn't realize before.

Would it be better to just place all the termies and move up to shoot? What is the sounder tactic, too deep strike or not to deep strike? My original plan is to place the HQ and deep strike the elites.

@1750
Master
Term. armor/pair of lightning claws/teleport homer
Term. Command squad 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2

Epistolary
Term. armor/storm shield/teleport homer/FoTA/VoT
Term/ Command 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Tac 1x6
lascannon

Tac 1x6
lascannon

Tac 1x6
lascannon

Pretty clear that you shouldn't DS. Those ACs are your primary means of taking out MCs at range. Losing multiple rounds of shooting with 4 of those ACs is unacceptable, and DSing is not really much of a help when it comes to getting those Termies into CC--you'd need to land within 6" to actually get to assault them!

Here's what I recommend, if possible: Dump the Space Marine Codex and get yourself the Dark Angels book. Then dump all those Terminators, and break out full Devastator squads with Multi-Meltas. Before the game break these squads down into Combat Squads, with two Multi-Meltas in each. This will give you six units of two Multi-Meltas that you can use to erase his Carnifexes. Concentrate your fire on each Carnifex in turn and kill it before moving onto the next. Having two Multi-Meltas in each squad will let you avoid over-kill and help you to dispose of the Monstrous Creatures quickly and efficiently.

Similarly take full Tactical Squads, with a Lascannon and Flamethrower. Break these down into Combat Squads, and send a Combat Squad with the Flamethrower forwards to roast the Genestealers, while keeping the Veteran Sergeant back with the Lascannon.

What kind of bs advice is that? I'm not going to touch whether or not it would work, but you've basically told him to throw out his entire army and replace it with another army, and not just another army, but an army constructed from another codex. You might as well tell him to switch to Eldar or Tau.

Well, if you think about the difference between the sort of army that I proposed in my advice and the army that he took, you can see the advice about tactics that I gave him.

For your convenience, let me restate it: In dealing with any Warhammer 40k army you want to be able to distribute your firepower effectively and efficiently, so that you don't waste weapons against things that they are ineffective against, and you don't over-use effective weapons. Likewise forcing your opponent to distribute their firepower ineffectively and inefficiently is good, and maximizing the number of units that you take does this.

One of the problems with Deep Strike, to complement one of its bonuses, is that Deep Striking units are not on the board for the first turn and perhaps several turns after that. While they're not on the board they cannot be harmed, but they also cannot harm. Monstrous Creatures have good stamina against harm, and so you need to start chiseling away at them from the start. While the squads with Lascannons are a good start, the squads themselves are small and vulnerable to the sort of firepower that a 'Dakkafex' can put out.

Combat Squads are likewise vulnerable to this firepower, but they have the advantage of adding a unit to your total, and allowing you to effeciently distribute your firepower to the targets it will be effective against. Five guys with a Lascannon can sit back at the board edge and shell the advancing Monstrous Creatures, while the other five guys can deal with any Infiltrating nasties like the Genestealers, unlike a full squad that might have to ignore one for the other but resist the return attacks better.

If he's going to use the Terminators, then he needs to have them on the board from the start and should mix up the Assault Cannons with Cyclone so that he can start hurting the Monstrous Creatures before they advance into Assault Cannon range. If the Terminators move forward the first turn or two to around 20"-23" away from the lead Monstrous Creatures, then they can backpedal towards the stationary Lascannon squads, while the Flamethrower squads sacrifice themselves dealing with the Genestealers.

By the the time the Monstrous Creatures get into range for shooting and assaults, he should have reduced the Monstrous Creatures by two or three.

So given that he cannot take the army that I recommend, he can still employ the same tactics, by being able to engage the Tyranids on Turn 1 with long range firepower, killing them one by one with concentrated fire (no too much concentrated fire, else some of it will go to waste), and using small units to dissipate the efficiency of return fire and assaults.

Something that he can do, for example and besides switching up one Assault Cannon per Terminator Squad with a Cyclone Launcher, is ditch the Teleport Homers, and fancy close-combat weapons such as the Lightening Claws and Storm Shield, and the extra men in his Troop squads so that he can afford another couple of small troop squads armed with Flamethrowers to toast the Genestealers. He doesn't need the Teleport Homers because nothing would be Deep Striking, and he doesn't need the close-combat knick-knacks because the strategy is based around out-shooting the Tyranids.

Just top out your las-plasma combo against the MC armies.. 6 man las-plas some devastator teams with lascannon-missile launcher-plasma gun.

And top it off with terminators instead, maybe just 1 squad. Wich you dont DS but just try to get as many shots off from as possible and then finish it with your PFs if things go bad.

Kallbrand wrote:Just top out your las-plasma combo against the MC armies.. 6 man las-plas some devastator teams with lascannon-missile launcher-plasma gun.

And top it off with terminators instead, maybe just 1 squad. Wich you dont DS but just try to get as many shots off from as possible and then finish it with your PFs if things go bad.

OMG!!!11!! Boolshiat!!11! He mite as wel throw owt his armeee for Eldars!!!111!!eleventy!

Meh, just kidding.

Personally, you have a pretty decent list for taking out his. I would have made sure I chewed up the stealers with the AC's first, and had the lascannons chew up the dakkafexes. Once the stealers are gone, you should just assault the fexes with the termies.

Nurglitch, dissemble more? Let's look at your first post:

Here's what I recommend, if possible: Dump the Space Marine Codex and get yourself the Dark Angels book.

Transferability to his list: 0

Then dump all those Terminators, and break out full Devastator squads with Multi-Meltas.

Transferability: 0

Before the game break these squads down into Combat Squads, with two Multi-Meltas in each.

Transferability: 0

This will give you six units of two Multi-Meltas that you can use to erase his Carnifexes.

Transferability: 0

Concentrate your fire on each Carnifex in turn and kill it before moving onto the next.

Dingdingding, we have a winner. Too bad it is so obvious that you don't even need to have played 40k to realise the soundness of this advice.

Having two Multi-Meltas in each squad will let you avoid over-kill and help you to dispose of the Monstrous Creatures quickly and efficiently.

Transferability: 0

Similarly take full Tactical Squads, with a Lascannon and Flamethrower.

Transferability: 0

Break these down into Combat Squads, and send a Combat Squad with the Flamethrower forwards to roast the Genestealers, while keeping the Veteran Sergeant back with the Lascannon.

Transferability: 0

Waffle all you like. Your reply was useless.

And yes, Kallbrand's was just as bad.

Kudos, though, for actually saying something in your latest post that had some bearing on the list dornsfist stated that he was using and will continue to use.

Combat Squads are likewise vulnerable to this firepower, but they have the advantage of adding a unit to your total, and allowing you to effeciently distribute your firepower to the targets it will be effective against.

dornsfist's squads are jsut as capable of distributing their firepower efficiently. They are 6-man squads with a lascannon and no special. What is your point?

As for "adding a unit to your total", this would only be relevant if you were short of Troops slots, and dornsfist is not. If he wants to add to his unit count, he can simply purchase another squad.

If he's going to use the Terminators, then he needs to have them on the board from the start and should mix up the Assault Cannons with Cyclone so that he can start hurting the Monstrous Creatures before they advance into Assault Cannon range. If the Terminators move forward the first turn or two to around 20"-23" away from the lead Monstrous Creatures, then they can backpedal towards the stationary Lascannon squads, while the Flamethrower squads sacrifice themselves dealing with the Genestealers.

He should certainly start them on the board, but I don't see the need for Cyclones. They're less effective against fexes and even less effective against stealers (relevant in case you take down a fex that was screening stealers, giving you a shot at them), and they're almost useless against Warp Fielded Flyrants.

As for backpedalling, a 36" range AC is just as suited to kiting dakkafexes as a 48" range ML is, and you don't need to kite gunfexes because of their relatively low lethality vs Termies.

Something that he can do, for example and besides switching up one Assault Cannon per Terminator Squad with a Cyclone Launcher, is ditch the Teleport Homers, and fancy close-combat weapons such as the Lightening Claws and Storm Shield, and the extra men in his Troop squads so that he can afford another couple of small troop squads armed with Flamethrowers to toast the Genestealers. He doesn't need the Teleport Homers because nothing would be Deep Striking, and he doesn't need the close-combat knick-knacks because the strategy is based around out-shooting the Tyranids.

I agree with dropping the homers and CCWs, but I doubt the utility of the footslogging flamer squads, at least if they're sent forward the way you suggest. If I were the 'nid player, I would kill one squad with dakkafex fire (it willt ake one turn) and use the other squad as a safe CC waypoint for my Flyrant.

I have to agree with teagus-cromis, Nurglitch. I am going to use the list again and I am in no way inclined to dump my entire codex and army to start another one.

I stated that I felt the decision to DS was the reason it failed, but I was not sure because in the two games I played, the worst case scenario for DS'ing occured (I didn't get first turn, and none of them came in until round three). I posted to benefit from others experience due to my lack of playability to assess it quantitatively (did that make sense?).

Anyway, since I am going to use the list again, and using the advice given thusfar and from I what I learned in playing 2 games, please evaluate the strategy for soundness of execution. The original plan follows skyth's to the letter, except that I would target the winged HT first, then the dakkafexes, but that might prove to be flawed.

1) Do not DS, place everything on the board
2) Focus the lascannons on the winged HT, then the elite fexes.
3) Walk the termies toward the nearest fex while shooting at the stealers to eliminate their hth threat.
4) Move forward to assault the fexes ASAP.

Concerns:
Will 2 rounds of shooting termies at stealers reduce them to a non-viable threat?
Can one round of lascannon fire ensure that the termies can finish a winged HT when they get charged?
Can I afford not to give the HQ cc weapons?
And if so, would combi-plasma be an appropriate choice?

dornsfist: That's alright, I wasn't expecting you to dump your list and take a new one. I was just offering the list as an example of the tactical principles I recommend using.

You're certainly correct that taking your Terminators, and the bulk of your firepower, out of action for so long was probably a bad idea (then again, had you gotten lucky, it might have worked). The Devastator-based list I described doesn't give you the same temptation to Deep Strike, while giving you the same two-heavy weapon in five-man squads as your Terminators. The principles being to extend your reach over space (range) as well as time (turns spent on the board shooting), while dividing your firepower efficiently amongst your forces.

Your tactical priorities seem okay, but I think you need to think about #2-4 in slightly greater detail like you do in #1. You may also want to think about the order in which squads will attack his creatures, because your Assault Cannons will be marginally more effective against his Hive Tyrants than against his Carnifexes, particularly one that flies and against which you'll need volume more than power to shut it down in the small window of opportunity your opponent will give you before it charges. In particular taking out his Synapse creatures will make life easier for you (besides not having them chewing on your troops).

That's why I suggest taking the small Flamethrower-based Tactical Squads, to deal with the Genestealers while your Terminators and their Heavy Weapons focus on the big fish. Five Space Marines with Bolters and a Flamethrower will be almost as threatening to Genestealers, especially Scuttlers, as the same size squad of Terminators, and the Flamethrower will help you roast them in the cover they will be using to get into assault range. Genestealers will continue to be a threat to your squads as long as they live, as they can tie up your firepower in assaults, giving the Monstrous Creatures time to close.

In that vein I think you'd be better off just having your Head Quarters tote Storm Bolters for dealing with any Genestealers that get close, particularly if you're going to stick the Terminators on Genestealer duty - better to deal with them at range than at arm's length.

Knocking out the synapse will do next to nothing against the army posted.

FYI if you run against a shieldwall army, with a line of MC backed up by stealers and some gaunts coming up to tie you up in CC...

Well, I'd walk all over you if you actually advanced towards me.

If you are going to play vanilla marines, having some way to keep your AC alive while they work the fexes over is key.

You are correct in the assumption that you should not DS with this list against nidzilla.

I'll see what I can come up with in 1750, points are really tight for a good list at this level.

Well, it's an idea. Makes the list a little more viable against enemy vehicle armies, and adds a little more survivability for your terminators. Being able to keep 2 AC going is critical.

If you get swamped by gaunts or stealers on your line of terminators, you can still save them from non-PW hits.

Might not seem like much, but 3 termies saved per turn and becoming fearless vs shooting wounds will also help quite a bit.

1750 Pts - Space Marines Roster

1 Captain @ 290 Pts
Storm Bolter; Terminator Command Squad
1 Terminator Armor @ [25] Pts
3 Terminator Command Squad @ [200] Pts
Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

1 Captain @ 290 Pts
Storm Bolter; Terminator Command Squad
1 Terminator Armor @ [25] Pts
3 Terminator Command Squad @ [200] Pts
Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

4 Tactical Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Apothecary @ [63] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunters; Terminator Honors
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Apothecary @ [63] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunters; Terminator Honors
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Tactical Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1); Tank Hunters
1 Apothecary @ [63] Pts
Upgrade to Apothecary; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunters; Terminator Honors
1 Narthecium @ [0] Pts
1 Reductor @ [0] Pts

4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

Total Roster Cost: 1750

dornsfist:

Will 2 rounds of shooting termies at stealers reduce them to a non-viable threat?

Yes--if you get two rounds of shooting at them. Difficult.

Can one round of lascannon fire ensure that the termies can finish a winged HT when they get charged?

You mean a full squad of Termies? Yes, if it's a shooty Flyrant. Probably not, if it has dual scytals. More importantly, how can you expect to get him to charge a full squad? He will pick a weaker one, and he has the mobility to do it.

Nurglitch:

Genestealers will continue to be a threat to your squads as long as they live, as they can tie up your firepower in assaults, giving the Monstrous Creatures time to close.

You have it the wrong way around. The MCs serve to let the stealers close. Either that, or the stealers serve to ward of CC troops that would threaten the MCs. MCs except the Flyrant will or should never be interested in getting closer than 18".

A question for Nurglitch, regarding flamers against genestealers:

How have you been able to get those working for you? I'm a newbie, but it's always seemed to me that, since they charge from >12" away, it's hard to hit more than one genestealer (two at the most) with the flamer template... and you have to advance toward them to do it. With that and the flamer wounding on 4+, and many genestealers having a 4+ save, it's just never struck me as an effective tool for killing stealers. Does your experience say otherwise? Or do you have a trick to lure the stealers in close enough to toast the squad without them charging?

In Nurglitch's defence, the flamer squad could work because if it's a 5-man squad and tightly packed, the stealers are pretty much guaranteed to wipe them out on the turn they charge, leaving them open for the Termies to eliminate. This means the nid player will probably have to find some other way of removing them than charging them with stealers.

Very interesting idea with the apothecary trait. I can't complain about the expensiveness of the sergeant because if each one saves one termie, it is worth it.

So how does it work? You attach the 3 tac squads to the 3 elite term squads and then attach the HQ to 2 of the now ten man squads? Sit in some terrain and let them come to you or until it's viable to break from the lascannon anchors to move? Or do the nartheciums have some sort of range. I am under the impression that they must be attached to the squad benefitting from the narth. I could be wrong, I don't have my codex in front of me.

My only real complaint, as the list is structured exactly the same as mine, minus the apoths, you lose the master rites of battle (10 leadership) and having captains is cheap, but useles for the squads as they all have veteran sergeants (Ld9). Also, the librarians ability FoTA to hit the stealers hidden behind the gun wall/terrain and the psychic hood negating the focused warp blasts seems like a big sacrifice. This is my intial feeling. I could be wrong. Thanks for the feedback. I gotta chew on it some more:

Basically, go with the same list, but lose the rites of battle leadership 10 protection and lose the psychic hood and FoTA for 3 apothecaries. Very interesting!

Heavy flamers work vs stealers IF you deepstrike.

Joe, I think you were 100% right that Deep Striking was a serious error, and handicapped you badly. Against Nidzilla you so need those guns going right from turn 1. You do not want to move up to assault ASAP. You just want to be close enough to shoot at 1-2 MCs per turn, and any stealers you can expose behind them. Moving forward too quickly will give the stealers a much better chance to assault you.

Stelek’s list is pretty solid. The narthecium works on a friendly model within 6”, so it can indeed help the termies, though it limits their mobility a bit. With only 24” range on the ACs, you will sometimes need want them moving.

I do like your original list pretty well, though. As you noted, Ld10 and the psychic hood are nice things to have, particularly in the larger metagame against Eldar and such. One thing I would do differently, however, is to drop a single marine from all of your tac squads (dropping them to 5, but you’ll keep them in the back anyway), to buy Tank Hunter on three of your Terminator squads. This will be a huge help against Eldar grav tanks (from the front or side) and Tau Devilfish (from the front), literally doubling the number of glances you get.

Mobility is limited, as you need to keep the apothecaries near your AC termies. Against Nidzilla though, you are guaranteed that they will come to you, so mobility isn't as big a deal as it could be versus other lists.

How does that Combat Squad thing work? I just had my first, albeit brief, look at the Dark Angels Codex and I didn't see anything about splitting up a 10 man squad into two 5 man squads. It was actually take a 5 man, and upgrade them to 10 man. Unless I missed a rule on some page that let you split the squad up then, you'd have to have a full 10 man squad to have that las cannon.

You did miss it. Near the front, look again. Same area as the DA modified ATSKNF rule.

Dire Wombat: It's not really a trick, and remember that the squad also has four Bolters in it (although they don't negate the cover save). Basically a Genestealer brood has to have a model starting within 13" of a model in the Marine squad in order to guarantee a charge, and within 18" for a charge to be possible. And the Flamethrower toting Marine needs to be within 8" to hope of getting one of the Genestealers touched by the Template.

Here's what I do: Form a rough wedge with your Space Marines with the Flamethrower armed Marine on point. Advance to 19"-20" away from the closest Genestealer (closer if there's Difficult Terrain between you and them). They will attempt to charge using their Fleet of Claw. If you measured it right, then you have a good 4/6 or 5/6 chance of having your Flamethrower armed marine within 9"-10" of the leading Genestealer, supposing they moved directly forward. In the following turn you can advance and subject them to eight Bolter shots and a Flamethrower at a convenient range.

Now, obviously the Genestealers may not move directly towards your Flamethrower squad. They may simply shift to a position with better cover out of range of your Flamethrower. That's okay, because you can still shoot them with your Bolters, or simply move back out to 19"+ and engage a more pressing target. Hopefully there will be a unit in your army with the range, firepower, and lack of more pressing targets to hammer the Genestealers some more.

Incidentally this can be done better, if more expensively, by a squad of Terminators toting a Heavy Flamethrower.

Nurglitch, who are you playing against who just leaves their genestealers out in the open to get shot? This should only happen in a stealer shock list. In nidzilla, which is the topic at hand, stealers hide behind MCs if the player knows what they're doing.

Uh, where do I say the Genestealers get left out in the open to get shot? The whole point of the Flamethrower is that the Genestealers will be hugging cover the whole time.

Nurglitch wrote:If he's going to use the Terminators, then he needs to have them on the board from the start and should mix up the Assault Cannons with Cyclone so that he can start hurting the Monstrous Creatures before they advance into Assault Cannon range. If the Terminators move forward the first turn or two to around 20"-23" away from the lead Monstrous Creatures, then they can backpedal towards the stationary Lascannon squads, while the Flamethrower squads sacrifice themselves dealing with the Genestealers.

While he may have made some other ire raising codex swaping sugestions, Nurglitch certainly has it right with this (and a few other unquoted bits) piece of tactical advice. Start the terminators on the board, get to the point where you are just bairly in range, and start shooting. Then back up and keep shooting as necessary. Use flamer units (or the terminators if you have to) to deal with the little bugs that are comming up to threaten you. Also keep in mind that a carnifex that has just 1 wound left fights and shoots just as well as one that's not hurt at all, so concentrate your fire on one till it's dead, then move on. Never pass up a chance to shoot a wounded one if you have the shot.

Uh, where do I say the Genestealers get left out in the open to get shot?

Now, obviously the Genestealers may not move directly towards your Flamethrower squad. They may simply shift to a position with better cover out of range of your Flamethrower. That's okay, because you can still shoot them with your Bolters. . . . Hopefully there will be a unit in your army with the range, firepower, and lack of more pressing targets to hammer the Genestealers some more.

That's where.

Oh, and something I didn't notice earlier:

Advance to 19"-20" away from the closest Genestealer (closer if there's Difficult Terrain between you and them). They will attempt to charge using their Fleet of Claw.

Hilarious. You assume that your opponent cannot judge range--why? Presumably, we're talking about an opponent equally skilled or better; advice and help is not needed against an inferior player. Further, you assume that your opponent has a reason to feel threatened by a flamer that's 19"-20" away and mvoes 6" a turn--why? Why would s/he not simply inch towards you, leaving your flamer at a still impotent range?

i play both ultras and big nid armies.
the majority of the advice you are recieving is good.
if i were you i would deffinately take some very mobile flamers. either 5 man assault squads w/ 2 flamers each or 3 man bike squads w/ 2 flamers each. the bikers are 14 pts cheaper and do give you a little more mobility though not necessarilly more survivability.
Ditch the expensive HQ. i think the points spent on just one HQ unit need to be spent to actually do something. Librarians have forceweapons. IF they live to deal a blow to your foes big critters, then they are worth the points. i like the commander more for facing big nids just cause your leadership is higher.
I wouldnt rely on quite so many terminator squads. maybe take less termi units and more las plas tactical squads. does your foe use extended carapace on the big nids in his list. if he does then more ap 2 is what you need.
this is just a suggested list based on yours. and i have had pretty good luck beating my foes who play nidzilla, the key is to kill one big nid at a time, and get the stealers before they get you.
@1750
Master
Term. armor/pair of lightning claws/teleport homer
Term. Command squad 1x4 w/ assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Term. squad 1x5
assault cannon x2

Tac 1x6
lascannon plasmarifle

Tac 1x6
lascannon plasmarifle

Tac 1x6
lascannon plasmarifle

3 bikes w/ 2 flamers

10 Dev w/ 4 ML

this list has 3 more rapid firing plasma guns at close range and 4 more ML for long range hitting fire power, the ML can drop a dakka fex with a little luck every turn. you also get the fast deployment flamers for stealers that need to die.
i would even recommend dropping the terminator command squad for a

master with powerfist and BP.
6 man command squad with apothecary, 2 plasmarifles, and vet sgt with fist.
this leaves you 96 pts you could use to
upgrade one biker to vet sgt with a fist and add a attack bike with a multi melta.
this gives you more maneuverable fire power and the ability to charge a wounded fex to take it down. just my two cents.

Disagree strongly with dropping the libby. FotA is pretty much the only thing that can chip at the hidden stealers no matter what the other guy does. Between the Ld. reroll and that, I'll take FotA any time. Ld. is almost irrelevant against non-choir nidzilla anyway.