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So I’m just now testing dual-lash cheese. I haven’t used it up to this point, partially out of worry that it might annoy, and partially out of a desire to do something different. So far most of my chaos lists with the new list have used a cheap Prince w/wings, and recently adding Warp Time for more assault reliability, but at Adepticon the competition is another step up; the lists I faced in the championship last year were all top-notch, and I think Chaos needs its best trick to really contend. Here’s what I’m testing:


HQ
Lord Igyanul
Daemon Prince () with Wings (), Mark of Slaanesh (), Lash of Submission () = 155

Heretical Librarian Raphael
Sorcerer () with Flight (), Mark of Slaanesh (), Lash of Submission (), Personal Icon () = 150

Elite
Remnants of The Deathwing
3 Terminators (), 1 w/Chainfist () & Heavy Flamer (), 2 w/Power weapon & Combi-Plasma () = 120

Scions of Hatred
5 Chosen () w/Lascannon (), Plasmagun () = 140

Scions of Vengeance
5 Chosen () w/Missile Launcher (), Plasmagun () = 125

Troops
Squadron Alpha
10 Chaos Space Marines (), with Icon of Chaos Glory (), Lascannon (), Flamer (), including Aspiring Champion () with Power Fist () = 225
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight) = 35

Squadron Beta
10 Chaos Space Marines (), with Icon of Chaos Glory (), Missile Launcher (), Meltagun (), including Aspiring Champion () with Power Fist () = 220
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight) = 35

Our Desire Frustrated
5 Lesser Daemons = 65

Fast Attack
Wings of Vengeance
8 Raptors () with 2 Meltaguns (), including Aspiring Champion () with Power Fist () = 220

Heavy Support
Reviled Brother of the Deathwing Brutus
Obliterator = 75

Reviled Brother of the Deathwing Magnus
Obliterator = 75

Squadron Omega
8 Havocs () with Icon of Chaos Glory (), 4 Missile Launchers () = 210


Total: 1850pts

If you aren't going for an Undivided theme you could switch out the CSM's for plague marines or other fearless cult troops, you'd end up with less boots on the ground (or Rhino in this case) but the same amount of special weapons.

Also, it seems to me more likely that the Wings of Vengeance will need that Icon of Chaos Glory than the Havocs.

Oh boy.

This whole list is going to be playtested?

Well...I don't think it's very competitive at all.

Thanks for the feedback.

It is normally an Undivided force. Slaanesh is obviously there for the Lash, and the lesser daemon pack will be a unit of Daemonettes to match.

The icon moving from the Havocs to the Raptors is something I’ve been debating for a while. I do kind of worry about the havocs running off the table, as they’ll be close to it, but the Raptors will usually come under heavier fire. They’ll also be a better summoning point. I just haven’t modeled one with an Icon yet. I probably should, as I can probably make a pretty dramatic conversion with not a lot of work.

You have 7 units that will take 1-3 casaulties and start taking morale checks. They're vulnerable to pinning and tank shock.

Mech armies, especially Eldar ones (who will be there in huge numbers before 5th edition changes them) are going to have a field day running the table on you.

Chaos is not strong as it is, but these choices you are taking weaken it further. *shrug* Even in 5th edition this list will have a bad time of it.

I'm not a fan of giving transports to units that have heavy weapons, conflicts with my expectations of the unit.

i don't see this list working out rather well. Drop the daemons, they lost a lot of effectiveness in the new codex. and the termies need some more man power. Other than that the chosen are out of place, better to combine them into one big unit, and have them be a close combat surprise on the enemy flank. finally if i were you i'd run two units of raptors, just so that way you can do a slight pincer move on the enemy with one unit on each side of the table

Any suggestions using similar units/models?

I’m not averse to reorganizing the list, and buying and painting a few more models if people have some good suggestions.

I’m open to hearing what you recommend. Right now I’ve got 11ish heavy weapons, 11 scoring units, 60 models. It’s a list I’m pretty comfortable with as adapted from prior versions, though I’ve really just thrown in the termies as an experiment, and I’m still getting used to Lash. The couple of test games I’ve tried Lash for have gone pretty well, though I haven’t gotten to test it against nidzilla or mech elder yet.

I’ve basically got a good-sized Dark/Fallen Angels force, which started life in 2004 as an old-school DA/shooty marines army. I’m not looking to change it to a mixed-cult list with a bunch of Plague Marines or Noise Marines; it’s really a pretty straight up Undivided force, though obviously marking the characters and throwing in some lesser daemons allows some more flavor and gives some more visual appeal and contrast.

At Baltimore I ran them using Codex: Marines rules, with the Devastators taken as Elites with Tank Hunter, and multiple six man las/plas teams. I dropped a reasonably close game to a mostly-nidzilla army played by a top tourney player, and another to a completely maxed-out Falcon/harlies army largely thanks to a tactical error on turn 2. I beat up a mixed-powers chaos army, an undivided chaos army, and a mixed mech/dropping IG force. I know this army doesn't bring the guns as well or as cheaply as the marine list, but it's got better HTH and has the Lash.

For painted models presently, I’ve got roughly…

1 winged prince
1 librarian/sorc w/jump pack & power weapon
1 Master/Lord w/jump pack & PW
1 Chaplain/Lord w/jump pack & crozius (have used as undivided daemon weapon)

3 lascannon marines.
2 plasmacannon marines
6 missile launcher marines
4 plasmagun marines
1 meltagun marine
2 flamer marines
~36 bolter or BP&CCW marines (mostly bolters) (I own dozens more unassembled and/or unpainted).
3 icon bearers on foot
3 champs/sgts with fists
10 assault marines/raptors including two plasma pistols, two meltaguns, and a sgt/champ w/fist
3 painted terminators (equipped as above; I own seven more unassembled; a box each of loyalist and chaos)
2 painted oblits (I own 1 or 2 more unassembled)
5 bloodletters
6 daemonettes
8 raptors
2 Rhinos
1 HB Razorback which can double as a Rhino
1 Whirlwind which can double as a Rhino
1 Dread with swappable arms (Las vs AC, ML vs CCW; CCW has magnetic storm bolter or heavy flamer)
1 Twin-Las pred w/las sponsons
1 Vindicator
2 Tornado speeders

Running the core of 2 DP/6 oblits + any of TS, EC, or PM will IMO work better than this list will.

Having extra bodies is nice and all, but you seem to be leaning towards having them play as space marines instead of chaos.

They don't play that way. Nidzilla and Mech (tau or eldar) will cripple you. Orks will have a field day, you just don't have the firepower or resiliency to stop them.

I don't think you need to make a carbon copy of Stelek's list to be successful. Remember you will be judged on more than battle points and this will be a huge tournament with the entire spectrum of armies and players. You can expect one thing, the unexpected.

That being said I think you can make a nice well rounded army that will do well.

Change the winged sorcerer to a bike sorcerer. Give him MOS, Lash, and meltabombs. (+10pts) This will be the only new model you would need to buy and paint.

Change the havocs to 5-man squads with 3 missiles and duplicate the unit. Combine the oblits into a single 2-man squad and you have 3 heavies. (+60pts)

Lose the daemon squad. (-65pts)

Give both troop squads a missile and flamer instead of what they have now. (-15pts) This gives them the tactical flexibilty to help against mech and horde.

Make all three chosen squads 5-man, lascannon and flamer. (+5pts)

Now you have 3 independent lascannons, 2 indy missiles, 2 groups of 3 missiles and 1 group of 2 lascannon/plasmacannon. That's 8 heavy weapons to engage mech anything. The DP and bike sorcerer can also engage vehicles if needed.

The rhino's give you decent mobile cover for the oblits and/or raptors and can be used to shove 20 csm's into the line of static shooting armies.

Against horde lists you have the ability to lash the 2 closest horde units away and concentrate fire on one horde unit at a time. The Las/flamer combo on the chosen seem schizo, but there is method in the madness. With a 100+ person tourney you can expect anything. 200 Orcs or 11 Eldar skimmers. The las/flamer combo gives you a chance against both types of armies.

The bike sorcerer gives you more mobility than the winged sorcerer. You might want to practice with warptime or wind of chaos with this guy. Since you can turbo and get almost anywhere, those close ranged powers might be advantageous, however I think the second lash would be better served as a more effective deterrent against orc horde lists. It is so nice to isolate those orc units and deal with them one at a time as chaos.

Give it a whirl.

Agreed, you don't. I like your suggestions. Not sure about Rhinos doing anything but blowing up, but that's just my experience.

Some interesting suggestions. I am really not sold on flamers taken by any footslogging unit. IME you really need a unit with a flamer to have a transport, a jump pack, or a decent chance of deep striking close to something juicy to get good mileage out of it. 6” move + 8” range does not a horde-killer make. Especially since Orks will be Waaaghing once they get close, and Wyches, Genestealers, and (admittedly now infrequently-seen) gaunts all Fleet anyway. With good use of Lash they might work, but the Adepticon ruling largely prevents bunching units up, so I have little faith in flamers all over the place in place of plasma and my melta.

I'm also probably not going to get a bike librarian built in time.

So, taking otherwise those suggestions into account, what if I did this:

HQ
Lord Igyanul
Daemon Prince () with Wings (), Mark of Slaanesh (), Lash of Submission () = 155

Heretical Librarian Raphael
Sorcerer () with Flight (), Mark of Slaanesh (), Lash of Submission (), Personal Icon () = 150

Elite
Remnants of The Deathwing
3 Terminators (), 1 w/Chainfist () & Heavy Flamer (), 2 w/Power weapon & Combi-Plasma () = 120

Scions of Hatred
5 Chosen () w/Lascannon (), Plasmagun () = 140

Scions of Vengeance
5 Chosen () w/Missile Launcher (), Plasmagun () = 125

Troops
Squadron Alpha
10 Chaos Space Marines (), with Icon of Chaos Glory (), Missile Launcher (), Flamer (), including Aspiring Champion () with Power Fist () = 215
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight) = 35

Squadron Beta
9 Chaos Space Marines (), with Icon of Chaos Glory (), Meltagun (), including Aspiring Champion () with Power Fist () = 195
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight) = 35


Fast Attack
Wings of Vengeance
8 Raptors () with 2 Meltaguns (), Icon of Glory, including Aspiring Champion () with Power Fist () = 230

Heavy Support
Reviled Brothers of the Deathwing Brutus & Magnus
2 Obliterators = 150

Squadron Psi
6 Havocs (90) w/3 Missiles (60) = 150

Squadron Omega
6 Havocs (90) w/3 Missiles (60) = 150

1850

I lose two models and a scoring unit, and gain a heavy. The oblits are tied together, but I have two dedicated shooty missile Havoc squads to pound away at Dakkafexes or Tau/Eldar skimmers. So it’s really five long-ranged dedicated shooty units, two of which Infiltrate, and one of which can Deep Strike if the situation calls for it.

Another thing I could do would be take the 30pts from the sixth guys in the Havoc squads, and buy a 4th terminator to give them a little more staying power. Optionally I could also strip the 9th marine from my second CSM squad to give him a powerfist and another combi-plasma. How does that sound?

4 obliterators will do you better 99% of the time than 12 havocs with 6 missile launchers. they kills tanks easier, they kill genestrealers and MCs easier and, most importantly, they kill MEQs far far better. even at large tournaments the majority of players will be bringing some sort of MEQ.

im not sold on the sorcerer. for 5 points more you could have annother demon prince, which is better in all respects. loosing the icon isnt much of a problem because deepstriking terminators is usually a waste of a couple of turns of shooting (preferably with a RA).

it does seem like you're trying to play evil and spiky space marines, which dosent work. chaos marines are worse than loyalist marines most of the time because if they take too many casualties they will run away and you'll never see them again. Chaos' biggest strength lies in cult marines, supported by demon princes, oblits and maybe some termies and raptors. rhinos are bad in 4th because if you dont get the first turn they WILL get shot. thats free points to your enemy and then hell be free to shoot your marines while theyre pinned. missile launchers are bad. autocannon are better at killing light vehicles than missile launchers are at killing heavy vehicles, for which you should have lots of lascannon anyway.

im not the biggest fan of chosen, only because they are so expensive for what they are. some more terminators with an icon of tzneetch or nurgle would probably be better.

I'd replace the Havocs by 2x2 Obliterators.
Moreover, the Chosen will have little impact.
Drop them and take 2x3 Termies with reaper autocannons and combi-plasmas.

Okay, I dug through my stuff and confirmed I do have two more Oblits.

How does this one look?

HQ
Lord Igyanul
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission = 155

Heretical Librarian Raphael
Sorcerer with Flight, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Personal Icon = 150

Elite
Remnants of The Deathwing
3 Terminators, 1 w/Chainfist & Heavy Flamer, 2 w/Power weapon & Combi-Plasma = 120

Remnants of The Deathwing
3 Terminators, 1 w/Power Fist & Reaper, 2 w/ Power Weapon & Combi-Plasma = 135

Scions of Hatred
5 Chosen w/Missile Launcher, Plasmagun = 125

Troops
Squadron Alpha
10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory, Lascannon, Flamer, including Aspiring Champion with Power Fist = 225
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight) = 35

Squadron Beta
8 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory, Meltagun, including Aspiring Champion with Power Fist = 180
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight) = 35

Fast Attack
Wings of Vengeance
8 Raptors with 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Glory, including Aspiring Champion with Power Fist = 230

Heavy Support
Reviled Brothers of the Deathwing Brutus & Magnus
2 Obliterators = 150

Reviled Brothers of the Deathwing Cassius & Publius
2 Obliterators = 150

Squadron Omega
6 Havocs w/Icon of Glory, 3 Missile Launchers = 160

1850, 10 scoring units, 10 heavies (not counting the hvy flamer), 51 models.


Or, alternately, I could swap the Chosen ML squad for a big squad of 8-9 Lesser Daemons to give me a little more assaultyness and durability.

That would leave me either 16 or 3 points left over. 8 would probably be a good scoring unit, and would leave me enough points to either add a 7th model to the havocs for additional durability, or to give the Sorcerer a familiar and Doom Bolt for a more killy option. It would also make him my most expensive HQ, which might save me a few battle points. The primer scenarios all had keeping your most expensive HQ alive as a bonus point, and unless I beef up the Sorcerer that's my (fire magnet) Daemon Prince. It's also enough points to give him a bike instead of flight, but I know at this point I'm not building a bike sorc/librarian model.

It's still not very competitive. The bulk of the army isn't fearless.

Is it likely LD10 will run? No. It does happen, and it does ruin games.

Both Terminator squads should have reapers, or should be combined into one.

In all, I think you are just asking to be moved to the back tables in short order with this army list.

You should playtest these units more and form an opinion. 2x2 oblits are not better than 3 missile havocs more than 50% of the time. The oblits excel at 2+ save things, armor 14 and moving+shooting. That's it. They die much easier and 3 missiles will do much more damage to armor 12 (eldar) and the majority of TMC's who are 3+ save themselves.

Two oblits are 2 lascannons away from being wiped out (a very common weapon) while 3 missile havocs need to be whittled down. With a preponderence of units on your side, they won't draw every gun in the game.

The 3-man Termie squads , imho, are not effective tactically. If you want them for fluff pieces then say it. It's a perfectly good explaination for having them in there when soft scores are part of the game.

Terminators:

This might be too late, if you've modeled them already, but there doesn't seem to me to be any kind of advantage to putting your heavy flamer and your chainfist on the same guy. That means a torrent of fire could take both of your good toys. I'd split them up, so you've got one with a combi plasma, one with a combi-plasma and a chainfist and one with a heavy flamer. I'd also change out one of the combi-plasmas for a combi-melta. It sacrifices one anti-infantry shot for the possibility of popping a heavy tank or instant killing an HQ or crisis suit.

I also don't concur that 3 man Terminator squads are not effective tactically. They drop and blast exquisitely, being small enough that their loss isn't an automatic defeat, while being threatening enough to force the enemy to dispose of them in the next turn, before they initiate melee combat. Especially given that in this list the preponderance of lashes and icon in his force can take a lot of risk out of the drop.

Oblits vs. Havocs:

I come down on the Obliterator side of the fence, but I think the Fallen Angels probably wouldn't have them, so I can see the fluff behind havocs. It'd be about even if the Obilts had to pick a gun before the game, but their ability to switch to switch to precisely the right gun for the circumstance (and their fearlessness) puts them above Havocs, in my eyes.

Prince vs. Sorcerer

I actually come down on precisely the opposite side of the fence from DD. In my experience the Prince gets immediately burned down, as the opponent exerts themselves to eliminate the Lash. Sorcerers, by contrast, fight almost as hard and are protected by their IC status. The scoring unit discrepancy isn't as important, in my mind, because the DP is never scoring at game's end. Still, to each their own.

Replace the tactical squads by Noise Marine squads, mounted in Rhinos.
Give each AC power weapon and doom siren.
(Man, I played such a list vs. drop podded BTs and they died like flies.)

Results:

I played a close variation on the last list in Sunday’s tournament. Instead of the Chosen I had 8 lesser daemons. My Havocs were at 7 models with 4 ML & icon. And both squads of termies were identical, with Chainfists.

Round 1:
All-nurgle force, with a flying prince, typhus leading 5 terminators, four squads of 7 plague marines, an all-las possessed pred, and a defiler. Took out the pred and the battlecannon turn 1, finished the defiler and lashed and killed some plague marines turn 2. Gradually took the army apart. Threw my sorcerer away trying to force weapon typhus, which also led to the loss of my havocs. My terminators took his home quadrant, dropped some plasma shots into his terminators to soften them up and reduce their numbers. Thanks to the reduced numbers, I was able to drop them under half in the last turn with oblit lascannons, and they were broken (including Typhus) at the end of the game. 37 out of 38pt win.

Round 2:
Dark Eldar semi-webway army, played by Dakka’s own Moz. Really good guy, good player, knows the rules cold. Also played with big brass ones, running the haemonculi forward on turn one with only a squad each for cover. I went for glory and busted both my prince and sorcerer out of cover, planning to Lash both covering squads backwards to expose the haemoniculi to oblit lascannon death and take more than half of his army out in one fell swoop. I promptly failed both psychic tests, and had to start improvising fast. Thankfully my tactical choices from there (push the stuff that was too close to the portals to get away FORWARD, so as to make him put his stuff farther away from the shooty parts of my army) turned out to be the right moves. I wound up with another 37 out of 38.

Round 3:
Necrons with Deceiver, 9 destroyers, three medium-small squads of immortals, 3 separate heavy destroyers, 20 warriors. My dice were awful (Deceiver made my prince run 15” off the table), and I made a key mistake- I went after his destroyers when he moved them close enough on the left flank, but this left the center objective insufficiently covered, and he was able to take it on the bottom of turn six. I threw one of my terminator squads away early, deep striking it behind his lines in an attempt to distract and cause havoc. I’d have been better off just bringing it in safely next to an icon (as I did with the second squad), hiding behind area terrain right near the central objective. If I had kept all six terminators central, I would probably (more jammy dice aside) been able to take/keep the center at the end for the win. Credit to my opponent for playing smart and focusing on the mission. He (I am fairly certain) fed me most of his destroyers on turn 4 to get my Raptors away from their threatening position hiding very close to the central objective. For two turns I played as if it was 6” to take an objective, as opposed to base contact, and that cost me even more than my dice did. Wound up with him having the Primary, and no one achieving the secondary or tertiary, for something like 7 points.

Overall I was quite happy with the list, and pretty convinced that it would do well against anything I could expect to face except mech elder and possibly horde orks, which have a definite learning curve.

you need IoCG in there somewhere at least to make your guys way less likely to run. if you don't moral checks will be your number one enemy in this game

All the squads which can have it do have it, except the termies.

Prince w/Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, lash = 155
Sorc w/Flight, Mark of Slaanesh, lash, personal icon = 150

3 termies w/chainfist, heavy flamer, 2 x combi-plasma = 120
3 termies w/chainfist, heavy flamer, 2 x combi-plasma = 120

10 CSM w/icon, las, flamer, champ w/fist = 225
Rhino = 35
8 CSM w/icon, melta, champ w/fist = 180
Rhino = 35
8 lessers = 104

8 Raptors w/icon, 2xmelta, champ w/fist = 230

7 havocs w/icon, 4x ML = 195
2 oblits = 150
2 oblits = 150

1849

ahhhh lesser daemons! i'm not even gonna get started on how much i loath them

Sunday mine did the following.

Game 1: Helped my raptors and sorcerer finish off a squad of plague marines, then tied up another one for the final two turns of the game.

Game 2: Killed a haemonculous, broke and ran off the table a squad of DE warriors, weathered the charge of and then killed a squad of warp beasts, and then consolidated to tie up a squad of wyches and prevent them from charging something else valuable.

Game 3: Tied up and eventually broke and ran down a heavy destroyer and squad of three light destroyers. Assaulted and tied up a second squad of destroyers to prevent them from contesting an objective.

Squads of 8-10 are pretty durable and hitty against other infantry, and can really add useful extra numbers to a combat. 8 only cost 104pts and get an extra inch of assault distance over a smaller squad. I like ‘em, though I wish they could count as compulsory Troops.

While it'd be very rock/paper/scissors, I think you could actually still do a very credible daemonbomb army using three squads of bikes, or a couple squads and a biker HQ or two with personal Icons, as well as a bunch of 10 daemon squads. Like 50 or 60 daemons, or more.

Maybe something like:
Sorcerer, bike, mark of slaanesh, familiar, lash, warp time, personal icon: 190
Sorcerer, bike, mark of slaanesh, familiar, lash, warp time, personal icon: 190
Greater Daemon: 100

3 bikes, 2x plasma, icon of glory, aspiring champ = 154
3 bikes, 2x melta, icon of glory, aspiring champ w/fist = 169

6 Plague Marines w/2x melta, personal icon, champ w/fist = 203
In Rhino = 35
5 CSM w/Melta, icon of glory, champ = 110
In Rhino = 35

10 lessers = 130
9 lessers = 117
8 lessers = 104
8 lessers = 104
8 lessers = 104
8 lessers = 104

1849


Of course, this would get boned in Escalation, but in any other mission would be pretty neat.

I thoroughly enjoyed our game, and this list was a lot of fun to play against. It's focus is mixed so it's not either just shooting you off the board and hiding, while it's not just charging headlong into you. It's also got a lot of tools to deal with a lot of different situations, and a surprising amount of resilience.

I gotta say, when I looked at the list on paper. I thought it would be a cakewalk, and Mannahnin proved me dead wrong.

Moz!

You were a great opponent and I really enjoyed our game. Thanks for the kind words.

I thought your list was very solid, combining mobility (and the ever-awesome horrorfexes) with good static firepower. The disposable archon and your converted Talos were nice touches as well. Thankfully I have some practice against DE (including a game against one of the Wrecking Crew teams just the previous day), and I got a couple of good breaks after that first turn in which I kind of pulled my pants down with the double failed lash attempts.

My buddy, Player-A, played those Crons against you, and he was very complimentary about your list and play skill when he was describing his day later on. The way he told it, if the Deceiver hadn't scared off your DP you had him on ice. Kudos on your list's performance!

Always like reading about your chaos doing well, Manny. I use an 8-12 lesser demon mob in every chaos game I play, and they have only very rarely not won the game for me or really helped me out. Last game I summoned 8 down and assaulted 32 hormies around mid-swarm, dying to a girl after fearless outnumbering wounds; and a few games back against Tau I summoned 10 in to try to reach a sniper team deep in the Tau DZ and instead lost every girl to a railhead submunition ... But then the game between those 10 girls devoured 3 sisters squads sitting on a take-and-hold objective and secured me a win I wouldn't have got otherwise.

Really for me it's the mobility that's key. My chaos are distressingly static, but the demons give me that bump into assault or onto an objective that's vital. And just between you and me ... My old demonettes used to win me games by rending apart land raiders / carnifex / whatever, but I think I prefer the new lesser demons for what I use them as. T4, 13 points and no FOC slot + the summon rules just really works out for my army more than T3, scatter and even more combat prowess would.

Congrats on the wins at Adepticon!

- Salvage

I'll still take some termies to the daemons any day. I feel they are more of a thing to put in if you have points that you don't know what to do with

I keep thinking that when the demons busted out all of Mannahnin's opponents were saying, "Lesser demons suck, I'll just ignore them and shoot at those other guys over there," and then get pounced by the so-called sucky demons.

Ozymandias, King of Kings