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Hello All, I am trying to get back into 40K after a long hiatus. I am rather fond of IG so I thought I might throw my dice in for the Emperor. Take a look, any suggestions, comments would be great. Thanks

1850 Pts - Imperial Guard

Cameleoline
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline

Command Platoon
Command Squad
Senior Officer Iron Discipline; Honorifica Imperialis
Commissar
Guardsmen Master Vox-Caster, Plasmagun (x2)

Anti-Tank Squad Lascannon (x3)
Fire Support Squad Autocannon (x3)

Infantry Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline Vox Caster
Guardsmen Vox Caster; Flamer; Meltagun (x2)
Commissar

Infantry Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter

Infantry Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Vox Caster ; Flamer; Meltagun (x2)
Commissar

Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter

Infantry Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Vox Caster; Flamer ; Heavy Bolter
Commissar

Infantry Squad Lasgun Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Lasgun Grenade Launcher

Fast Attack
Hellhound

Heavy Support
Basilisk
Leman Russ Battle Tank (Heavy Bolters)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (Heavy Bolters)

Try about 6 more lascannons and you'll be on your way.

2 hellhounds is preferable to just 1 hellhound.

Stelek, would you suggest scrapping the autoguns for lascannons?

And would scrapping an infantry plasma/HB squad be a good start for the Hellhound's points?

Stelek wrote:Try about 6 more lascannons and you'll be on your way.

2 hellhounds is preferable to just 1 hellhound.

Thanks for the input although I am not sure if I can fit 6 more lascannons without some creative accounting I might be able to fit in another Hellhound. I really dont see at least in my club running against many if any vehicles, most of the marines and chaos players do without. Any good reason to field that many more lascannons? 3 more might work in the hq or each platoon. Would a sentinel squadron with multi-lasers be better then the hellhound?

You can save some points by:

1. Making your Senior Officer a Junior Officer since you're giving him an Honorifica Imperialis anyway.
2. Remove the Commisar and upgrade one of the Guardsman in your Command Squad to a Veterans with Company Standard (Re-rollable leadership 9 is better than leadership 10).
3. Ditch the Vox casters, you should be deploying around your hidden Command Squads so they'll provide leadership and thats all.

Additional Comments:
1. A second Hellhound would be very good, much better than adding Sentinels.
2. Try and fit more Lascannons into your line squads. What I've found good for me, is having two Heavy Weapon Teams with 6 Lascannons in the HQ and 3 Lascannons in 3 line squads. Normally Heavy Weapon Teams are vulnerable, but with Cameleoline and them deployed in a corner with the rest of your army in front, they should be fairly survivable.

Thanks folks for the input, ok lets see after a little creative accounting I have


1850 Pts - Imperial Guard

Cameleoline
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline

Command Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Meltagun (x2) , Standard Bearer
Anti-Tank Squad Lascannon (x3)
Anti-Tank Squad Lascannon (x3)

Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Meltagun (x2); Lascannon

Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter


Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Meltagun (x2); Lascannon

Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter


Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Plasmagun (x1); Heavy Bolter

Infantry Squad Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Grenade Launcher

Fast Attack:
Hellhound
Hellhound

Heavy Support:
Basilisk
Leman Russ Battle Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter
Leman Russ Battle Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter

shadowmage97 wrote:Cameleoline
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline

Interesting start. I'd take Drop Troops as it's free though...

shadowmage97 wrote:Command Platoon
Command Squad
Senior Officer Iron Discipline; Honorifica Imperialis
Commissar
Guardsmen Master Vox-Caster, Plasmagun (x2)

Oh boy...

If you want this army to be competative, you don't take CHQ's like this.

This unit should cost 81 points. Total. 91 with Cameleoline. No more. No less.

But what's wrong with it?

Senior Officer w/Honorofica. You get the same statline when you take a JO w/Honorifica, so why are you spending points on a Senior Officer?

Senior Officers are never useful. They don't have enhanced Leadership, only their other stats, which are meaningless anyway as they shouldn't be fighting. The only stat that matters on your Commander is Leadership, and it's either 8 (on a JO), or 9 (on a JO w/Honorifica). It's never anything in between.

Commissars are worth 20, not the 40 they make you pay, and really this model will do nothing for you.

Master-Voxes, and Voxes in general, should never be taken. Your Leadership Radii give you enhanced Ld for free, so why pay points for something you get for free anyway?

This unit should be hiding, not shooting. Plasma Guns just kill memebers of your squad making it easier for your opponent to slaugher your CHQ.

You need a Standard Bearer. Ld9 re-rolled over 12" should never be passed up.

shadowmage97 wrote:Anti-Tank Squad Lascannon (x3)
Fire Support Squad Autocannon (x3)

Fine. The Cameleoline makes these guys workable.

shadowmage97 wrote:Infantry Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline Vox Caster
Guardsmen Vox Caster; Flamer; Meltagun (x2)
Commissar

Oh dear...

Commissar is a waste.

Why are you mixing weapons? Flamers and Meltaguns don't belong together. You take 4 Meltas or 4 Flamers or 4 Plasmas. You don't mix them.

The Vox... uhh... lose the Vox.

shadowmage97 wrote:Infantry Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter

Mismatched weapons. ACs and Plasmas. Lascannons and Plasmas. HB's and Flamers.

And I find it really odd that you didn't take Voxes in the squads, not that you should take voxes at all, but I thought I'd mention it.

shadowmage97 wrote:Infantry Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Vox Caster ; Flamer; Meltagun (x2)
Commissar

Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter
Infantry Squad Plasmagun; Heavy Bolter

Everything I said about the last platoon applies here.

shadowmage97 wrote:Infantry Platoon
Command Squad
Junior Officer Iron Discipline
Guardsmen Vox Caster; Flamer ; Heavy Bolter
Commissar

Infantry Squad Lasgun Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Lasgun Grenade Launcher

Terrible. I'm sorry to sound so negatige, but this is terrible.

Command Sections are the foundations of your army. Without them your Ld7 Guardsmen crumble and run away. They should be hiding, out of LOS, providing their free Leadership bubbles. They should never be tempted to shoot things with long-ranged guns like Heavy Bolters. They shouldn't be adding points to themselves for something they give out for free anyway, and they shouldn't have Commissars.

You've spent 160 points on 4 worthless Commissars so far in this army. That's the same cost as a basic platoon!!!

And Grenade Launchers belong in no Guard army. Flamers kill infantry better. Plasmas kill MEQs, TEQs and Light-to-Medium vehicles better. Meltas kill all vehicles better. You're a Guard player. You can afford to specialise in your squads. You don't need to compromise when it comes to weapons. You can take what you need for the job 100% of the time. You don't need 'versitile' weapons, as the Guard themselves are versitile due to the virtue of being so cheap that they can take multiple of every good heavy weapon in the game.

shadowmage97 wrote:Fast Attack
Hellhound

If you're going to take a Hellhound, then take 2. Remember this:

One is a target. Two is a threat. Three is a nightmare

No one's going to have any trouble popping 1 AV12 vehicle. Add to that the fact that people have an irrational fear of Hellhounds (for some reason), meaning that it will be target number one from the word go. To add even more to that, you're making life easier for your opponent by taking a single AV12 vehicle. What this means is your opponent now has a target for all his S7 and S8 guns, which would have been otherwise wasted against the AV14 Russes. With an AV12 target there, suddenly all his Autocannons and Missile Pods and Missile Launchers and other similar things can start plinking away at your Hellhound, killing it in no time.

shadowmage97 wrote:Heavy Support
Basilisk
Leman Russ Battle Tank (Heavy Bolters)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (Heavy Bolters)

Altogether fine.



Overall, this list is all over the place. You've got a decent amount of infantry (60-men in three platoons), but they're all armed incorrectly. 3 Lascannons at 1850 won't cut it. You need about 6-8 of them. You've spent, it seems, 40 points on Vox equipment, and 160 points on Commissars. That's 200 points to go and improve this army and make it actually competative.

Were I to take your basic list design and improve it, it would look like this:

Doctrines:
Close Order Drill (assume all squads that can have it do have it)
Cameleoline (assume all squads that can have it do have it)
Iron Discipline

CHQ
Junior Officer w/Honorifica Imperialis + Iron Discipline
Standard Bearer
3 Autocannons
3 Lascannons

Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer w/Iron Discipline
Squad w/Lascannon + Plasma Gun
Squad w/Lascannon + Plasma Gun
Squad w/Lascannon + Plasma Gun
Squad w/Lascannon + Plasma Gun

Infantry Platoon
Junior Officer w/Iron Discipline
Squad w/Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Squad w/Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Squad w/Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Squad w/Heavy Bolter + Flamer

Hellhound
Extra Armour

Hellhound
Extra Armour

Basilisk
Indirect Fire Training

Leman Russ
Hull Heavy Bolter + Extra Armour

Leman Russ
Hull Heavy Bolter + Extra Armour

7 Lascannons. 8 Heavy Bolters. 3 Autocannons. 2 Battlecannons. 2 Inferno Cannons. 1 Earthshaker Cannon. 4 Plasma Guns. 4 Flamers. 1 Ld9 Bubble w/Re-Roll. 2 Ld8 Bubbles. 80 warm bodies to soak up wounds, 15 command, 2 AV12, 2 AV14 and one Arty piece.

That's competative.

BYE

I agree with virtually everything that HBMC says. The only possible quibble I would raise is that while he recommends a few out of sight command squads, I tend to take minimum platoons, and use the command squads as special weapon platforms: either four flamers and a power weapon, or two plasmas and a missle launcher. Others like four plasmas. Believe it or not, very few opponents will shoot up your command sections if you put a bunch of them on the table.

>Terrible. I'm sorry to sound so negatige, but this is terrible.

Oh no it’s cool really, one learns by doing.

Now I have a ton of IG figures all over the house and don’t mind buying more heh although if I really don’t expect to see lots of vehicles why take so many lascannons? I do expect to see a number of large figure tyranid lists, and a number of necron lists. Now I was curious as I didn’t take anything close to close combat troops. If a unit of marine jump troops get into my face I am going to have a hard time. Would taking a couple of counter attack squads be of help? Do people take powerfists or weapons with guard or are they considered useless? I guess Ogryn also are not popular to take any more?

Thanks

Polonius wrote:I tend to take minimum platoons, and use the command squads as special weapon platforms: either four flamers and a power weapon, or two plasmas and a missle launcher. Others like four plasmas. Believe it or not, very few opponents will shoot up your command sections if you put a bunch of them on the table.

Don't get me wrong, my standard loadout when it comes to Command Sections is 4 Flamaers, with the odd 4 Melta one in there as well, but with this list I had to make compromises, and when it comes to shaving points, the first things to go are the special weapons in my Command Sections.

shadowmage97 wrote:...I really don’t expect to see lots of vehicles why take so many lascannons?

Because you're BS3, and over two turns those 7 Lascannons will hit 7 times, usually enough to kill a vehicle. Anything less than that and you'll be in trouble.

shadowmage97 wrote:I do expect to see a number of large figure tyranid lists, and a number of necron lists.

Well you need the Lascannons to deal with TMCs and Monoliths. And you'll need Plasma Guns for the TMCs as well, and any 2+ saves you might run into. Large hordes of infantry will be taken care of by your 4 Heavy Bolters, Basilisk and 2 Russes.

shadowmage97 wrote:Now I was curious as I didn’t take anything close to close combat troops.

No such thing in a Guard army.

Guard have 'Counter-Assault Units' as opposed to assault units. These units are designed to do one of two things:

1. Kill so much of the enemy so quickly that the unit is no longer a threat (Rough Riders, Cyclops Demo Vehicles, Special Weapon Squads).
2. Tie up the enemy long enough for you to swarm them with more squads or run away from the assaulters (Conscripts, regular Infantry squads).

As such, your army does have counter-assault in the form of 40 extremely cheap HB Flamer squads. They're cannon fodder, and they sit there firing their HBs until something gets near. Then they storm forward, flame their target, and swarm. Fighting off a 10-man Assault Squad is no issue. You've got 40 wounds. He has 10. You'll lose a lot of guys, but attrition is on your side.

shadowmage97 wrote:Do people take powerfists or weapons with guard or are they considered useless? I guess Ogryn also are not popular to take any more?

No. No one ever spends points on Power Weapons and Power Fists. To start with, your Power Fists are only available to Officers and Commissars. Officers are ICs, and will die before they ever swing. Commissars are overpriced junk units, so why take them just for a few S6 power fist attacks? Power Weapons are cheap at 5 points, but as I said, most of the people who can get them are ICs, and they're usually I3 as well, meaning they'll never swing. Ogryn don't work. Their T4 means that a single powerfist will often kill 2-4 models in a single round of combat, so their cost isn't worth it.

When it comes to counter-assault, the following works:

1. Rough Riders - A unit of 6 or 8 will gut a Marine squad on the charge, leaving 4 or so Marines alive, nothing you can't handle. Make sure RR's get the charge, hide them well until then, and keep in mind that they will die the turn after they charge.
2. Cyclops Demo Vehicles - Similar to RR's, you hide them until the time is right. Then you race out and detonate. S8 AP2. This thing'll stop everything up to and including Terminators in its tracks. Very nasty.
3. Special Weapon Squads - Demo Charge + either 2 Flamers or 2 Meltas. I prefer the 2 Flamers as it gives you stacks more hits on top of the S8 AP2 Demo Charge.
4. Command Sections - Either 4 Flamers or 4 Plasmas. The 4 Flamers will ruin light things (hit Gaunts or Orks etc.), and the Plasmas Rapid Firing will silence pretty much anything.

These units will rarely kill everything in the enemy assault squad, but they should reduce it in numbers so much that your other squads won't have any problems fighting them off.

With swarming, it's just a case of ensuring that you beat your opponent during his turn, or that he beats you during his. This way, whatever happens, it'll be your turn next and you can, in the case of the former, re-order your guys, or in the case of the latter, he has a squad in the open after killing one of yours, and it's your turn, meaning you can blast them off the map.

Remember to space your troops out to avoid sweeping advance, unless you're going to rush someone. Assault Squads can't fight off 40 guys rushing them at once that easily.

BYE

Again, I want to second everything HBMC said, with one twist: I buy one or two JOs power weapons, and put them in four flamer command squads. I know the squad will see close combat (or at least attempt to), and the five points really is pretty cheap. While at S3 they still generally don't kill much, it's nice when it finally does do a wound. While nearly any army can put down the JO before it swings, an astonishing number of people don't know that the JO is an IC and can be targeted, or they don't know he's only one wound. I think HBMC plays savvier people then I do.

I'll glom on here and ask: my feeling is that Medics are a huge waste of points and the lack of them in lists here reinforces that opinion. Can anyone confirm my bias (or even present a refutation)?

Listen to HBMC, he knows his stuff.

However I wuill add a few comments of my own, including some differences in opinion.

1. Commissars are generally grossly overpriced, but for the record Independent Commissars and conscripts make for a very nasty combination.

2. When it comes to 'counter assault' HMBC misses the final option in your defence: Sentinels. Sentinels are good at stopping assault units without powerfists (or rending). Because they have a Ws they are relatively hard to hit and one Sentinel, or better yet a squadron of them, can hold up some enemies very nicely.
Hard hitting opponents need to be stopped by cheap infantry instead. e.g. Sentinels stop hormagaunts, conscripts stop the monsters.

3. I disagree on the 4x flamer or 4x melta command squad, you are better off using special weapon squads instead. As other point of the command squads are there to provide a leadership'bubble' this makes them fairly static. As the special weapon options are short ranged (except the plasma gun - which has its own problems) you cannot rely on them.
As a point in hand, if you have a command squad with 4 meltas, that cannot really move far because its prevnting a whole platoon from running away, and is hiding away from enemy heavy bolters. So it has a very limited range and is an obvious threat.
Will the enemy send its tanks that way? No they wont. The 12-18" zone of fear is useful, but as a deterent two melta guns work just as well.
Flamers are even more restricted becasuse of their very short range.

All in all, I find command squad special weapons to be a liability in large numbers. Take one or two guns, mainly for colour and a bit of emergency shooting.

4. I actually like the melta/flamer combination for comand squads. Sure those guns dont match up but if you equip them all this way, your cowering command squads that way each squad at least has *something* that can deal with deepstrikers, and fast vehicle flanking. Having to face a single flamer no matter where you place your deepstrike huddle, isbwetter than having 4x flamer in one spot, and none elsewhere.

5. Grenade launchers arent very good, but they do complement heavy bolters and autocannon well with a backup shot of roughly comperable firepower. dont overuse them, but you can take one or two in your list without sacrificing its function.

6. The 'two Hellhound commanaries do make sense, but even two Av12 vehicles wont last long. Hellhounds are best deployed where you have plenty of chimerae also, or in a pack of three.

7. Give your Basilisk indirect fire or drop it in favour of another Russ.

[quote=shadowmage97

Now I have a ton of IG figures all over the house and don’t mind buying more heh although if I really don’t expect to see lots of vehicles why take so many lascannons? I do expect to see a number of large figure tyranid lists, and a number of necron lists.

H.B.M.C, teach us, what ever you say is completely neccessary. teach us oh wise one, teach us of the imperial guard.

seriously lol, im stuck, especially when it comes to balanced lists like facing orks and chaos..:(

Bring enough autocannons, hellhounds, leman russes (for the heavy bolters, not the big gun of suckiness), and toss in 5 billion lasguns and you'll send orks running.

I like 3 heavy bolters on a Russ, (there was a thread on thkis a few months back); however the battlecannon is the main prize. I am very suprised to find anyone who calls it a 'big gun of suckiness'.

Sure orks are not an optimal target, either save is an all or nothing. The only real advantage is against Flash gits and nobz for the instant kill, and noone really takes those. Orks are one of many reasons why a Russ should have three heavy bolters but the big gun stillcounts. However with ork horde sizes being what they are you can probably fit far more boyz under a large blast than you can hit with 9 heavy bolter shots for much of the game. Horde orks have little choice but to bunch up.

While speaking of Russes, against orks Person5 should take three, orks have terrible troubles with Av14.

I can't tell you the last time I fired a leman russ and got really good results.

It's not like it's a surprise to anyone, so they spread out.

Even horde orks can spread out.

The russ shells can deviate horribly.

Heavy bolters don't.

YMMV.

So what do you suggest? Bassies or lol, heavy weapons platoons, lol?

Russes with heavy bolters. I was responding to Orlanth about why I think the russ' main gun is the suck.

Doctor Optimal wrote:So what do you suggest? Bassies or lol, heavy weapons platoons, lol?

Wow, I guess you've never played a 160 model IG infantry horde before. Make a list with 15 lascannons and 15+ heavy bolters/autocannons, and 150+ guys and try it out.

IMO its a whole lot better than a tank/infantry mix... at least until july

Meh not really, shep.

My Eldar would have had a much harder time with both my IG opponents if they'd have brought vehicles.

As it was, my 30 man army beat down the 160 man horde army without much difficulty.

I have a good time playing drop pod armies with my horde. Nidzilla feels a LOT easier to deal with when I've got 15 lascannons rather than 6. And stealer shock is just an auto-win. SAFH marines and good eldar players with good lists usually beat up on imperial guard players in any objective related game anyway.

But its totally not the point... I would NEVER recommend running the list. It's expensive, heavy, it will tank your sports score at a tourney when your opponent realizes you just slow-played him to a three turn game with a shooty army. And in a few short months it will be a LOS disaster.

I suppose I should make my generic recommendation to the new guard player. Call it a 'template' if you want... its even more bare bones than that...

Command platoon
get leadership 9 and a flag

infantry platoon x2
naked command squads
las/plas squads x2

2 hellhounds

3 russes


Depending on whats left, you can add infantry squads with las/plas, put heavy weapons on your troop command squads, add gaunt+conscript unit, or sponson your russes.

The list probably won't be perfect but its the perfect place to start. Without playing dozens of actual games, it's impossible to tell someone what is going to work best for them... even a tired old dog like IG. Play games, proxy, and find your favorites.