D&D 4E Thoughts and Experiences

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**adamsouza**

I wasn't fortunate enough to have been able to participate in the offical DnD Experience. but I've pre-ordered my rule books
Dungeons and Dragons Core Rulebook Gift Set, 4th Edition [BOX SET] (Hardcover) $62.97

I've been keeping track of the DnD rumors on a daily basis for months now and I recently discovered and downloaded the following
4E Player's Handbook Lite Edition ver 1.1 and 4E Monsters & More

This weekend, I'll be assuming my role of Dungeon Master, once again, and I'll be running a 4E adventure for my friends.

We'll be generating 1st level charecters and braving a dungeon for the first time in the 4E world.

I'll post more here after we do, but I would like to encourage anyone with 4E experience, or questions, to contribute to this discussion.

**malfred**

That sounds exciting (in a totally nerdy way)

As goofy as it sounds, I'm looking forward to the online
tabletop.

**adamsouza**

My thoughts in a nut shell, EVERYONE LOVED IT

It took longer than expected to roll up charecters. Not that it is that complicated, but the players were busy reading through everything before they made any choices.

Your D&D 4E 1st level charecter feels as capable as a a D&D 3E 3rd level charecter. You had enough hit points to take a few shots, you had interesting abilities to use in combat, and they let you do things that you could never previously do before.

The fighter was able to damage his foe and an adjacent one every turn.
The cleric buffed his allies while dispatching his foe.
The Warlock cursed, blasted, and Teleported to a better position.
The Thief was able to dish out some major damage and reposition his foe so that other party members coudl get at him.

The biggest difference ,that I hadn't seen mentioned anywhere, is that most of your abilities are now based off of your Prime attribute. Low strength doesn't mean that you suck at combat anymore.

As long as my thief used light weapons, he got to add his Dex bonus to hit and damage. The Cleric alternated between strength and wisdom, the Warlock Charisma.

Your not just attacking armor class anymore either. Class ability attacks can target AC, Reflex, Fortitude, or Will. It makes for interesting combat as you try to determine somethings weakpoint.

Everyone also enjoyed the lack of penalties.
In 3E attacking with a nonproficient weapon incuured a heavy penalty, in 4E it incurs nothing, it also doesn't give you anything as well. Being proficient with a weapon in 4E gives you a bonus to hit from +1to+3 depending on the weapon. Small light weapons are more accurate, and big damage weapons are less accurate.

Another intersting change is that you add 1/2 your charecter level rounded down to all to hit and skill rolls, and defences. It gives everyone a nice gradual progression that lightens the need for gear as much.
Excample.) A 10th level wizard intelegence 18 unarmored, has an AC of 19. (10 base+5 Level Modifier+4 Int Mod). This greatly increased his survivablilty and reduces his dependace on protective magin items.

It just felt great to be usefull at first level. My thief attacking with a dagger could target an opponents REFLEX, often lower than AC, and get +8 to hit and +4 to damage !! Daggers are accurate (+3), thieves are good with daggers (+1), and he has a dexterity of 18 (+4).

**Stormtrooper X**

Sounds... interesting. I'm really looking forward to reading the books. I heard that you don't need the "4 core" roles anymore. Is that true?

**adamsouza**

I don't think you ever truly needed all 4 four core rules before with a competant Dungeon Master, but I see it's probably even a lesser issue now than it was before.

There was a discussion about soloing in one of the podcasts and it was brought up that the new xp based encounter system and defined monster roles makes switching out creatures more appropriate for a less diverse party easier than ever before.

Basically, you can switch out anything that is problematic for the party for something more appropriate of the same XP value.

If you have a meat shield light party, you could swap out melee centric Orc warriors, for shootier Orc shamans/archers that would be a better match up.

In the playtest materials alone, there are like 10 different versions of kobolds. It's usually pretty easy to just swap one version for another.

That aside, from a design perspective, they went out of their way to eliminate creatures that can only be defeated one way, and there is healing even without a cleric.

A well balanced party is usually a recipe for success, but is by no means a requirement.

**usernamesareannoying**

adamsouza wrote:and there is healing even without a cleric.

ok, now you have GOT to explain that one!

**malfred**

Players get a number of ways to recover hit points
throughout the day. I don't know the mechanic, but they
don't NEED a cleric. It's certainly better to have one, though.

**adamsouza**

Players can have so many "healing surges" a day where they recover 1/4 of their max hit points.

Once per encounter you can get a second wind, and use a healing surge. I believe you can use one if you rest, and classes like the paladin and warlord can help you activate additional healing surges.

The number of Healing surges you can have per day is based on class it 6-9+ additional equal to your constitution modifier.

Cleric Class Feature: Healing Word allows the cleric or 1 other charecter within range use a healing surge and get an addition d6+Wis Modifier bonus points healed, usable twice per encounter, but only once per round.

I don't know if "cure light wounds" even still exists as Healing Word may have replaced it

**syr8766**

Just skimmed through the .pdf. Neat. I'm sorry to see the loss of the bard and the gnome, but this looks really interesting. I like the powers concept; It looks like they took "The Book of 9 Swords" as their template, which isn't a bad thing at all. Without drawing to fraught a series of comparisons, it moves game play away from party synergy at character design toward party synergy in play, which rules.

I like that they've freed up the Cleric to be a buffer/fighter (or caster) rather than a walking band-aid (or to be harassed if the cleric player used his spells to boost himself).

**adamsouza**

Alot of things that came later in 3.5 were stepping stones to try out new ideas that were incorparated into 4E. The Warlock with at will blasts and per day powers, the book of 9 swords, Star Wars Saga Edition.

They have mentioned that the Gnome and Bard will return, they just didn't make it into the initial release.
There has already been talk of a Players Handbook II in 2009, whiich is probably where bard, monks, and gnomes will end up.

**Stormtrooper X**

So what exactly are we looking class/race wise for the initial release? Also, if bards, monks and gnomes are in the PHBII that would be fine with me. It would be nice to have a PHBII that's worth buying.

**adamsouza**

Human
Dwarf
Elf <--Woodsy Elf
Eldarin <-- Mysticy Elf
Tiefling <-- Humans who's ancesters made pact with demons. Not the half breeds of 3E
Dragonborn <-- New race. Not the race of the same name from 3E.
Halfling <-- like 3E but taller. Gues they were tired of being confused with 4 year olds
Half Elf

Fighter
Wizard
Thief
Cleric
Warlord
Warlock
Paladin
Ranger

SwordMages confirmed as to being in the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.

Warforged will be on the WOTC site shortly after the game is relased. Eberon setting confirmed for 2009 Release.

They are going to relase a campaign setting per year. Forotten Relams in 2008 and Ebberon in 2009 are confirmed, but everything else is up in the air. It's been stated that there are champions for every campaign setting ever released on the 4E development team, so any previous setting may resurface.

**Stormtrooper X**

So the Half-Orc, Sorcerer, Monk and Bard took one for the team eh? No real loss I think. Very interested to see what the new races and classes add. As far as the new campaign setting every year I'm wondering how long it will be till we some of the old classics like Greyhawk, Ravenloft or even Dragonlance... Or possibly even Spelljammer which would make me a giddy little school girl.

**adamsouza**

Pretty much the only difference between a wizard and the Sorcerere was the method of spellcasting and Charisma things, and that's pretty much covered by the new wizard's spellcasting and warlock.

The defining feature of a Half Orc was the bouns to strentgh and and a whole boat load of penalties. None of the new classes have penalties, and if youre really just interested in the strentgh bonus you can just roll a human and call him a half orc

New version of the players handbook lite posted HERE

**malfred**

Monks were my favorite, but I haven't played DnD in a long
time so I guess it doesn't matter.

**Tacobake**

the rules look interesting. It looks like they are built to be more actually fun, like say a video game or strategy game is fun, while keeping everything that was good from before. Your own cool character, exp and loot etc.

I like the emphasis on a DM to make the encounters worthwhile.

I bet dragonlance will get fan treatment long before WotC takes a look at it. The 3E book didn't even have rules for actual dragonlances in it.

**adamsouza**

This is from the enworld 4E forums. It's the 1st 4E adventure

Adventures - The Orc and the Pie - 4E

The World's First, Shortest, Yet Technically Complete 4E Adventure
"The Orc and the Pie - 4E: A Parody of a Parody"

Adventure Background: An orc has a pie.

Adventure Synopsis: The PCs kill the orc and take his pie.

Adventure Hook: The PCs are hungry for pie.

Room 1: The Orc's Pie Room

You see an orc with a pie.
The room is 2 squares by 2 squares.

Creature: An orc.

Orcish Pie Keeper, Level 2 Soldier
Medium Natural Humanoid - XP 200
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +2
HP 34; Bloodied 17
AC 17; Fortitude 17 Reflex 14 Will 8
Speed 5

M Pie Server (Standard; at will) * Weapon
+10 vs. AC; 1d4+4
M Pie Zealot (Immediate, when any adjacent opponent tries to pick up a pie; at will) * Weapon
The Orc Raider can make a basic melee attack against that target with a +4 attack bonus

Skills: Endurance +8
Str +5 Dex +2 Wis +2
Con +3 Int +0 Cha +0

Treasure: A pie.

Concluding the Adventure: Pie tastes good.

Further Adventures: Somewhere, there is a bakery making these good pies. Perhaps it's guarded by more orcs.

**adamsouza**

and this was the followup

For those that want to run this adventure using 3E rules:

GROK: Orc, 1st-Level Warrior
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+3 studded leather armor), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4
Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6
Skills: Appraise -1, Balancce 0, Bluff -2, Climb +3, Concentration +1, Decipher Script -2, Diplomacy -2, Disguise -2, Escape Artist 0, Forgery -2, Gather Information -2, Handle Animal -2, Heal -1, Hide 0, Intimidate -2 (+3 when using STR based demonstraion of toughness and scaryness), Knowledge (Arcana) 0, Knowledge (Local) 0, Knowledge (History) 0, Knowledge (Religion) 0, Knowledge (The Planes) 0,Listen -2, Move Silently -1, Open Lock 0, Perform -2, Ride 0, Search -2, Sense Motive -2, Sleight of Hand 0, Spellcaraft -2, Spot -2, Survival -1, Swim +3, Tumble 0, Use Rope 0
Feats: Extra Skills I mean: Open-Minded
Environment: Temperate hills
Organization: Gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader
of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus
1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and
3 7th-level captains)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

GROK the Orc: This shorter than normal (5' 6&45/46" tall) and slight (123 6/7lbs) orc is ugly, squinty and (lucky bugger) never puts on any weight when he eats pies, drinks beer or after pub curries. He has blue eyes and lives in a quaint little 2 bedroom semi-detached dwelling in Waterdeep (23a Rotgut Lane, The Northern Docks, The Docks, Waterdeep, Faerun). His favourite passtimes are arm wrestling, pig wrangling, reading bad orcish poetry and watching reality TV shows. His favourite colour is red, his favourite song is the annoying one that was the theme tune for titanic and his favourite movie is the Austen Powers series (he especially likes the line 'no one thinks of the henchmen's family'). His best friend, Grog, thinks that reality TV shows are really lame and so he often doesn't watch them and goes to the pub instead. Grok and Grog are often seen together, hand in hand, among the most slovenly inns in Waterdeep's notorious Dock district.
Grok often (i.e. all the time, they are his only clothes) dresses in green moleskin trousers (made from fluffy sewer rats) and a brown homespun tunic. In his trousers left pocket is a small stone with a little bit of grey marbling effect on it and in his right pocket there are........I could go on but no one really reads this 3E non combat rubbish anyway, do they? What for, it is irrelevant to Grok's 1 round life span FFS, why do I bother? I don't know, WotC pays a pittance, my wife is having an affair........I am just going to end it all

**Strimen**

Lol very nice. I'm really excited about 4E just see how different it is and whether it plays decently or not. My other big hope for this edition is that the digital table top tools will be decent and work well with the products since they are basically all streamlined to play like an MMO anyways. Other wise it sort of seems silly to do it all this way if they aren't even going to make a full attempt at the digital table top being full featured for every product the release.

**adamsouza**

I was excited about the digital tabletop untill there was a discussion of monthly fee.

Don't get me wrong, it should be a great product, but half the reason I play D&D is to get together with my friends. If I want to play with them ffrom the comfort of my computer chair I'll boot up City Of Heroes.

The biggest use I can see for this is firends who have moved apart, I'm just not part of that demographic.

If it becomes free, or maybe a small yearly fee, then I will consider it.

It's basically the only part of the 4E experience I'm not sold on. Thankfully, it's the most optional.

**adamsouza**

Players Handbook Lite has been renamed 4E Pre-Release Rules Compilation (PrRC) v1.3 and is updated and available Here

**Mannahnin**

Very nice, thanks!

**adamsouza**

Verys Arkon's excellent 4E Pre-release Rules Compilation has been updated to v2.0.

AVAILABLE HERE

*Dragonborn have been added
*What we know of the Warlord in now included, along with enough fan-created powers to generate a good level 1 pseudo-Warlord
*Illustrations for Bursts and Blasts
*The recently revealed Powers by Class chart has been added
*Many of the known high level powers for the wizard and paladin are now included
*The Hit Point system has been finalized, and the alternate method discarded
*Added two feats: Tactical Assault and Burning Blizzard
*All the powers are now color coded
*Reorganized much of the content to more closely match the PHB 3.5

**Mannahnin**

Sweet. A friend of mine (who has eagerly been scooping up rumors as well) is playing in an official prerelease game tomorrow, and is hoping to be able to confirm/flesh out this stuff some more.

**adamsouza**

Exerpt from the 4E DMG up on the Wizards sight HERE. It's all about customizing monsters and includes the new templates for Vampires and the Lich.

Tarrasque

Although, at this point htey might as well just friggin cal lhim Godzilla !!

This and other D&D 4E news available on http://www.enworld.org/

**Tacobake**

that's a Tarrasque? It looks like something from Magic.

**adamsouza**

Well the same company makes both MTG and D&D now. Expect the D&D artwork in 4th Edition to reflect this.

**adamsouza**

OFFICIAL WARLORD CLASS SNEAK PEAK HERE

**adamsouza**

4E Pre-release Rules Compilation has been updated again. Here are the latest updates:

Changes include:
• Edited the Warlord entry to match the PHB excerpt
• Added Paragon Paths to Classes
• Added sections for Monster Roles, Monster Tiers, and quoted the "Customizing Monsters" excerpt
• Added a list of known playable monster races.
• Added known weapon categories and weapon proficiency groups.
• Added revealed Paragon Tier feats
• Added list of known bonus types
• Added list of known gods
• Removed mention of "Universal Skills"

**Sister Stern**

I read that whole teaser of the pre-release rules and my skin is vibrating I'm so excited about this. This is what 3.0 & 3.5 should have been. I could see some of the tinkering of ideas with Star Wars Saga but 4th edition D&D takes it so much further. All other RPG games have a problem with trying to heal in the middle of combat, but 4th ed. I think has figured it out and it seemed so simple and basic that you think, "Hell, Why didn't someone do that before?". A more progressive fun streamlined game and the skills checks redone as well. The skill checks was a big killer with the all the minuses and you got one roll and if you blew it, sometimes that's your behind. Now you get a combination of rolls, maybe a 4 out of 7 and use skills that you never thought you would use for that type of situation. My gaming group is totally apposed to it but I'm getting it anyway and make it as easy and painless as possible. True we have a ton of 3.5 books, but most of them were overkill and we used very little from. We may just have an Ebay dump fest. 3 people in the group really like the nine swords book, so there maybe hope (and it plays a lot like that, just not as confusing with stances, maneuvers and randomness). D&D is probably the first and best RPG for me it's what got me started on this path of Nerdhood. I started out with just a red basic book and that got the ball rolling which hasn't stopped since. I can't wait for June to get my grubby paws on it. Thanks for the links, especially the amazon one for buying.