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Im a rather new player and Im having trouble figuring out exactly how to use my dire avengers I have 1 squad of 10 dire avengers with an exarch. the exarch has a power weapon and a shimmer sheild Could you help me out

It took me a while to get the hang of it. They're a fairly soft unit, so don't expect them to stand up to a lot of fire. They absolutely need to be in cover as much as possible. Dont be afraid to fleet in to position to get a good place to fire from.

Consider putting them in a transport of some sort. Drop them off behind a transport, and they can fire through the transport, being a skimmer. They can still move and fire since they have assault weapons. Unless you're very sure you can eliminate a unit without it, use your bladestorm, because they may not get to shoot again, at least not without taking casualties first. I think the Defend exarch power is very useful, dire avengers aren't half bad in assault against non specialized units.

Avengers make great multi-purpose units. Defend plus Bladestorm plus pw/shimmershield.

They can blast things, then tie them up in combat. Combined with Doom and fortune, they are really good.

In my footslogging Eldar army, I use my DA's as my frontline unit. I expect the enemy to charge them and tie them up for a round. Then my dedicated close combat units counter assault the next round.

Dire avengers are one of the only all-arounder units in the Eldar army. They are good at shooting and good at close combat.

Darrian

They good alongside a couple of marching guardian units. They go good in a Wave Serpent. Heck, you could even put them in a Falcon if you really wanted to, although I don't know why you wouldn't take dragons.

thanks for the help guys

You can also use them to (only if your opponent is Forrest Gump) bait an enemy unit. Also, trying this on enemies with fleet is like holding on to a primed grenade. You bladestorm the enemy, do some damage. He comes a-running after you. In the next turn, not being able to shoot, you leggit and fleet for all you're worth. Repeat until enemy squad is dead. Of course, this is still only worthwhile when playing Forrest Gump

You can take a small unit of 5, as the cheapest way to get a waveserpent too.

DAs with PW/SS and Defend plus Bladestorm- Think of them as the anvil, with one of your countercharge units being the hammer. Catch the enemy upon the anvil (either they charge you or you charge them), live through a round of CC, and then pound them with your countercharge. Defend negates the advantage of an enemy charge, and the shimmershield helps nerf powerweapons and high-strength attacks. Bladestorm both reduces the force that will be charging you, and makes charging the Avengers before they shoot again seem like a very good idea.

Crossing over from your other post, your countercharge unit would be either the Avatar we suggested in your other thread, or the Wraithlord and Banshees that you already own. Your Autarch could also join in on the charge, if you choose to use him over the Farseer that others suggested.

Oh, and CC Avengers live twice as long if you have a Farser casting Fotune on them. With the single unit that you have, that's not as good of an investment as a Guide/Doom Seer, but it's something to keep in mind as you grow your force.

Once you decide to expand your force with a Serpent or two, the Avengers would indeed be a good choice for Serpent transport as part of your "go get 'em" force (preferrably partnered with whatever's riding in your Falcon).

Is Defend necessary if you have shimmer shield?

I can see Bladestorm - one extra shot from each DA before assault.

If you have shimmer shield - how many things are you going to fight that have two attacks? You don't take away an attack from a one attack model.

On a related note - given that DA are really VERY GOOD - can you get away without taking elites at all if you have heavy support and fast attack that can kill tanks and big monsters (walkers spiders etc.)?

Defend and SS complement each other.

Plenty of things will have two or more attacks.

1) Anything that charges you.

2) (Almost) anything in the Chaos list.

3) The hidden fist.

And no, I don't think kitted out DA can replace Elites. They obviously cannot fill the role of Fire Dragons, and while they can tarpit nasty CC units, they are not much good at actually wiping them out. This isn't to say that such units are irreplaceable, just that DA are not the things to do it.

Okay - Dire Avengers are good tarpits if the Exarch is kitted out. They also can ride a skimmer. In an all comers list, would it be good to have two units - one with a ride and one without?

Or is the use for Dire Avengers as foot soldiers, and one should put true short range shootin but hardcase dedicated assault troops in the skimmers? ( I am thinking Banshees, since Harlequins cannot yet ride Wave Serpent).

Answer: If you're using DA in a skimmer, have something else in a skimmer (Harlies, maybe Banshees) to back them up, or Shining Spears. The DAs are good close shooters, and make a decent anvil with PW/SS, Defend, etc.

Walking in, they eat bolter fire often. Walk two units if you can, IMO- especially while tempting enemy hvy. bolter fire with something else.

Well, seeing as how I have two units of them bought and paid for - they are both going in the two wave serpents bought and paid for

The hard part is figuring out how to equip the wave serpents - as transport anti-tank (twin linked bright lances) or giving them twin linked star cannons or scatter lasers.

What does the "pwer weapon plus shimmershield" get me really, vs the slightly cheaper diresword plus shiriken pistol?

How many times will my 4+ armor save troopers need that 5+ invulnerable?

What if you are forced to make the following choice - fully kit out your two DA exarchs, or drop power weapon plus shimmer shield to enable you to take a unit of Warp Spiders? Or, keep the pw and ss, and drop blade storm on both exarchs to get the Warp Spiders?

In business the call it "leaning the process", in army list building they call it "maximizing troops and units and therefore flexibility"

How many times will my 4+ armor save troopers need that 5+ invulnerable?

Answer: the important times.

Seriously, very few assault units don't rely on PWs of some kind or other, be they hidden fists or rending. If you want to tarpit such units, you need that inv save (and preferably Fortune on the DAs). It doesn't work without it.

What if you are forced to make the following choice - fully kit out your two DA exarchs, or drop power weapon plus shimmer shield to enable you to take a unit of Warp Spiders? Or, keep the pw and ss, and drop blade storm on both exarchs to get the Warp Spiders?

The full kit-out is fine.

Dropping PW + SS is also fine, although if you drop PW + SS, you should drop Defend as well and get dual shuricats.

Dropping Bladestorm is, one again, fine, though not optimal. It's a bargain for a unit that's going to get stuck in and thus be unable to shoot anyway. (Realistically, I see it panning out like this: DAs hop out of the WS after it moves--because you can't afford to park a fragile Serpent within 9" of the enemy to guarantee a next turn charge, like you can with a Falcon--and Bladestorm. Next turn, they use Fleet to try to charge.)

There's another option, too: drop the Exarchs entirely. This works fine; it just means that like the Bladestorm + dual shuricat unit, it can't tarpit, so you have to use them differently.

In business the call it "leaning the process", in army list building they call it "maximizing troops and units and therefore flexibility"

Sorry, but only GW and new players think of it that way (GW as a cynical move and new players out of naivety). Until 5th ed arrives (with its kill points and scoring rules), there is really no link between having lots of Troops and being flexible. Some Troops are flexible, others aren't. In fact, Troops are often the least flexible choices.

What are folks' experience with using Dire Avengers w/o an Exarch? A squad of 8 comes in under 100 points. It seems worthwhile points-wise. My Dire Avengers, when fully kitted out, just seem too expensive for what they typically are able to handle.

Saringer, the consensus seems to be that Exarch upgrade on Dire Avengers is worth it. Defense and the shimmer shield/power weapon combo seem to be universally appreciated.

I will find out for myself this weekend I guess

With Eldar one generally has to rate units on what they can dish out, not what they can take. Bladestorm allows the to dish out up to 32 S4 BS4 shots. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially at 18" range.

And Avengers do handle some things better than other units- namely power weapons, especially when Fortuned.

Good luck, Beriothien. Remember to use other units to complement the DAs- don't expect them to hold out by themselves in combat. Send something else in to bail them out- Banshees, Scorpions, Spears or Harlies, depending upon your opponent. Remember, they are the anvil, not the hammer.

There's nothing wrong with Exarch-less DAs. The lack of Exarch just consigns them to a game of back-pedalling and shooting. Make sure you have something to intercept fast CC units, as Defend/SS-less DAs obviously can't tarpit gak.

I play against eldar all the time.
my friend uses teams of 5, with blade storm and exacrh w/that double shooter.
He feilds about 4, 5-man squads.
They die real easy, however, they are usually last on my target priorety list.
When those guys get in and blade storm, it's nasty!!!
after blade storming (sense he can't shoot the next round) he positions up for another blade storm attack.
He repeats this untill you kill them off, more effective that I ever thought it would be.....

Your friend is not the sharpest crayon, is he?

4 DAs + 1 Exarch
92 pts
~12 hits when Bladestorming
~9 hits otherwise
5 bodies

8 DAs, no Exarch
96 pts
~11 hits all the time
8 bodies

Wow, I wonder which is better.

It's been something I've been looking at the more I play around with the 5th ed. PDF. Wave Serpents have been more survivable in our games and DA's seem to be a great unit that can come out for clean up duty. I've just been hesitant paying out 160-170+ points for one squad of Dire Avengers.

Sariger

That is great news ! My army has (before I learned anything of 5th edition) 2 Wave Serpents carrying 10 dire Avengers each.

I cannot access the sites with the 5th edition pdf (they are classified as criminal activity sites by IT here, and I don't access internet download stuff from home due to bandwidth issues since I live way out in the woods). From what I hear, vehicles are not toasted so much by glancing hits or rending handweapons.

I am finding that Avengers work VERY well against marines and terminators. I am glad I decided to bite the bullet and get bladestorm and defense and the shimmershield.

avengers are great, but a unit that takes alot of skill to make your points back with. I did have a squad wipe out 10 noise marines and tie up a chaos lord for 3 turns in a game though. stick them in a wave serpent, and try and find that one isolated unit that has nothing covering it. drop avengers
bladestorm
????
VICTORY POINTS!!!!

I currently am looking at investing in more DA's. The one full squad I have now always goes on foot and my opponents fear them something fierce. They generally get their points back for me, and usually draw extra fire away from my other units because when I get in and bladestorm it always seems to put a real hurting on my foes. And with defend and PW/SS I have had them survive around 4 rounds of CC with my enemies just annoying my opponent as I kill 1-2 of his guys a turn and he does the same against me, or less with that nice inv save. Currently thinking about fielding between 4-6 squads of these fella's with harlies to counter charge. Debating on whether or not I want all harlies or a mix of harlies and scorpions or banshees with them. I think with the dawn of 5th if there are as many cover saves out there as its looking like there will be then doing an all foot eldar army will be much more playable and I will have DA's forming a large core!
Aztral

A question on Dire Avengers - after using Bladestorm can they use Fleet in the next turn? You can use Fleet instead of shooting, but if you're not allowed to shoot can you still Fleet?

Yes. You don't even need a shooting weapon in the first place--look at Hormagaunts.

Beriothien, the good news about Serpents in 5th gets even better: Under the .pdf rules, the save is just like any other- and can therefore be Fortuned. A "starting line" position near a Farseer (or Eldrad for 2x Fortune) will make your most vulnerable Serpents considerably more resilient. This works with the energy field to halve the odds of a penetrating shot (after the field reduces it to strength 12 maximum) getting through. Rear shots will still suck, but at least you have a re-rollable 5+ to avoid them.

Aztralwolf, incoming fire is not the only reason that one mounts DAs in Serpents. You also need to get your rather short-ranged shots to the right place at the right time. Going after sit-and-shoot units, or evasive units backpedaling or using JSJ really requires mobility. And if you have your DAs kitted out to tarpit as well, using that as quickly as possible allows you to bring in your supporting CC units much faster. This increases the effectiveness of those CC units, and keeps them safer from enemy shooting (most Eldar CC specialists being glass hammers). As an added bonus, Serpents are a good source of anti-tank fire, with good mobility and brightlances.

Maybe 5th will bring more DAs on foot, but only alongside the (inevitable) Guardian hordes, I think.