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I'm trying to figure out a way to make guard work in a competitive environment, because I love the models and the fluff for them. I don't know hardly anything about 5th edition rumors and I haven't seen any pdf files on it, so keep that in mind in your assessment.

Basically one of the core ideas here is that I think I've been spending too many points on leadership upgrades in my other lists when what I really need is just more guard units.

The basic setup is for the lascannon and autocannon teams to set up along my board edge, as far back as possible, allowing range to shield them from much return fire, with the rough riders hidden behind cover for a nice counter assault, and the regular infantry squads making up the next line. The command squads can either act as suicide drop units, or as counter-fire units that stay hidden until an enemy units gets close, then move up to rapid fire. The basilisks hide in each corner out of LOS and go after anything I can't see with the rest of the army.

In objective missions, the infantry squads can either drop or move forward as the heavy weapons squads provide fire support.

Cadian 501st (1970 Points) Models: 142 Vehicles: 2
Doctrines: Rough Riders, Heavy Weapons Platoon, Drop Troops, Iron Disipline, and Close Order Drill.

Command Platoon (435 Points):
Command Squad (85 Points)
Junior Officer with Iron Disipline, and 4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.

Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.

Anti Tank Squad (110 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.

Anti Tank Squad (110 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.




Infantry Platoon (405 Points):
Command Squad (85 Points)
Junior Officer with Iron Disipline, and 4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Infantry Squad (80 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Plasma Gun, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (80 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Plasma Gun, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (80 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Plasma Gun, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.



Infantry Platoon (405 Points):
Command Squad (85 Points)
Junior Officer with Iron Disipline, and 4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Infantry Squad (80 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Plasma Gun, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (80 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Plasma Gun, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.

Infantry Squad (80 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Plasma Gun, 1 Cadian with Heavy Bolter.



Rough Rider Squadron:
10 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances. (110 Points)

Rough Rider Squadron:
10 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances. (110 Points)



Heavy Weapons Platoon (415 Points):
Command Squad (85 Points)
Junior Officer with Iron Disipline, and 4 Cadians with Plasma Guns.

Anti Tank Squad (110 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Lascannon.

Fire Support Squad (80 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Heavy Bolter.

Fire Support Squad (80 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Heavy Bolter.




Basilisk Artillery Tank:
1 Basilisk with Indirect Fire. (125 Points)

Basilisk Artillery Tank:
1 Basilisk with Indirect Fire. (125 Points)




That's
2 Basilisks
9 lascannons
6 autocannons
12 heavy bolters
12 plasma guns

There's still 30 points left over that I haven't decided what to do with.
Let me know what you think.

Doctor Thunder, you might want to take a look at the HQ section again. The Support Units section (of which you may have 0-5) specifically states that you may have 0-2 Fire Support Squads, not 0-4 as you have taken. Heavy Bolters and Autocannons are available to the Fire Support Squads, while Missile Launchers and Lascannons are available to the Anti-Tank Squads.

That said, I would say that concentrating that much of your heavy weaponry in 6-man Guard Squads is not a good idea, unless they have something like cameleoline and are being deployed in cover.

I'd recommend turning the two Triple HB Fire Support Squads into two Triple Lascannon Squads, using up the 30 spare points you have.

Other than that, I think the list looks pretty good. I personally dislike Rough Rider Squads, but some people swear by them. Their effectiveness cannot be denied, but YMMV.

CK

Good catch. I fixed it by putting the other two fire support squads in the heavy weapons platoon and two of the anti-tank squads in the heavy weapons platoon in the command platoon.

It's pretty similar to what I play around with, and it's fairly successful. All those rough riders may help against the main problem...once assault armies get into your lines, you're deployment area is so packed with bodies that they can easily skip from unit to unit.

I would recommend having at least one HQ section setup to assist the leadership of the main gun line. Drop all the plasma guns and get a vet with banner. The reroll, with no modifiers for being under half strength, will make your line much more solid. That's huge in any event, but even more so if you plan to hang around the edge of the board.

Speaking of HQs, with that many gun squads, I think a second HQ on the ground to assist with leadership may also be prudent. I think giving HQ sections a heavy weapon is fine to help out in the firepower department, as long as only the gun crew is exposed. You'll alway stay over half strength and can contribute to the fight.

Why 2 squads of 10 rough riders? If you have an empty FA slot, break them up into more, smaller squads. If you plan on hiding them behind terrain for counter assault, it should make no difference, except you get an extra scoring unit, and direct fire can only target 6/7 RRs in a squad instead of 10.

Play around with where you put the various heavy weapons. Depending on what your metagame looks like, I think you may find putting the heavier weapons in the line squads (lascannons) and the anti-infantry weapons in the fire support squads (HBs) may work better. Basically, you have 9 lascannons, but they are only in 3 units, each with only 6 T3 5+ save bodies.

You can get around some of that by using your drop squads to hit rear armor, but if you play alpha level games, it could become a serious problem.

Taking away the plasma from the company HQ and another HQ, with your extra points you could probably afford a vet squad to drop in (or infiltrate to prevent people from infiltrating and getting shots at your basilisks).

Just some thoughts.

Heavy bolters, bad.
Plasma guns singly, bad.
No vets, bad.
No mobility, bad.
Two countercharge units, bad.

A shooty army will kill all of your little squads of heavy weapons in a turn or two. Then laugh at your heavy bolters as they try to win you a game.

Seriously needs a rework to be even remotely competitive.

Stelek wrote:Heavy bolters, bad.
Plasma guns singly, bad.
No vets, bad.
No mobility, bad.
Two countercharge units, bad.

A shooty army will kill all of your little squads of heavy weapons in a turn or two. Then laugh at your heavy bolters as they try to win you a game.

Seriously needs a rework to be even remotely competitive.

How would you rework this list? I know you are really good at competitive shooty lists, but your post doesn't really help me know how to change my list.

Well, I'd put your tank hunting units in your line squads.
Toss the PG out.

I'd put autocannons into all the support squads.
I'd use sharpshooters on all of these squads instead of COD.

All COD does is let me put in a template and kill everyone.

I'd insert vets with plasmas over those HQs with plasmas, the HQs aren't anywhere as good.

Drop troops is a good doctrine, but since you can't combine sharpshooters with plasmaguns I've found the best combo is 3 meltas + a flamer. You don't need ID or COD or anything on the vets. ID bubbles are fine for the HQ squads, who I'd give two flamers to and be done with it. Consider them a last line of defense.

If you are going to go with countercharge units at all in a IG list, one should be a throwaway and one should be a tarpit. A Canoness, Seraphim, or conscripts can serve this purpose nicely.

Two bassies will get you 1 dead first turn pretty much every time at most GT's. You just can't hide two.
One is usually enough of a threat by itself anyway.

Adding in some missile launcher units so you have about:

3-6 missiles, 3-6 lascannons, 3-6 autocannons...well, you'll be in a much better situation. 48" range is what you want, so one flank can support the other.

In all of that, you need to plan for 5th and have some infantry units that you can get onto an objective. Keeping in mind they aren't the best, if you can deep strike...having improved comms on the bassie can let you keep a deep strike unit in reserve for as long as possible then drop it on an objective.

Having to walk forward, well...I'd sooner bring a battle sisters squad along in a IG army than pretty much anything else. They'll stay around a long time, where most IG units just disintegrate if there's any serious opposition.

I used to be really good at making assaulty lists, but GW nerfed that with the removal of 2D6 assault advances.
Without 24" assault ranges, today's game just doesn't support heavy assault armies. Look at Khorne...how far the mighty have fallen. At least the BA will be a real threat in 5th with the first turn run...

Thank you stelek, that was a very helpful post.

Stelek wrote:Well, I'd put your tank hunting units in your line squads.
Toss the PG out.

So, are we talking about taking infantry squads without a special weapon at all? Not even something cheap like a flamer just to fill the slot?

I'd put autocannons into all the support squads.
I'd use sharpshooters on all of these squads instead of COD.

All COD does is let me put in a template and kill everyone.

What about light infantry? Someone suggested on another forum that being able to infiltrate the heavy weapon squads makes them work a lot better because you're deploying them last.

I'd insert vets with plasmas over those HQs with plasmas, the HQs aren't anywhere as good.

Drop troops is a good doctrine, but since you can't combine sharpshooters with plasmaguns I've found the best combo is 3 meltas + a flamer. You don't need ID or COD or anything on the vets.

So, squads of 5 vets with 3 plasmas, and give the command squads three meltas and a flamer, is that right?

One is usually enough of a threat by itself anyway.

I heard that in 5th edition you cannot hide behind cover. Is that true, and if so, should I not take any bassies at all?

Having to walk forward, well...I'd sooner bring a battle sisters squad along in a IG army than pretty much anything else. They'll stay around a long time, where most IG units just disintegrate if there's any serious opposition.

Maybe like a twenty-strong sisters squad? Something like that.

stelek's sentiments here too, but double. the wepon teams are a waste to me. drop em' in lue of more regular squads with heavy weapons and special weapons, spreading the pain at your desire (you can shoot one lascannon at the enemy at a time that way, no overkill of three on one tank) and can be more flexible in general. but thats just me

From my experiences, light infantry doesn't help that much. Infiltrating is nice but it doesn't overcome the inherent problem with the fire support and anti-tank squads - too few ablative wounds, too low leadership.

If you infiltrate them anywhere interesting they will be outside of any leadership bubble. They will run or be decimated early. Infiltrating them somewhere boring is nice, you get to place last...but there are better ways to spend the points I think.

if you put your most important heavy weapons into 10 man line squads and get them near a banner/leadership bubble your weapons will hold.

I think the plasmagun is personal preference, but I dont use it. Really, it isn't THAT synergistic with the lascannon. Yeah, they have the same AP, but a lot of time will be spent against a lot of armies never firing it. You can probably spend those points on more bodies and be better off. Same goes with a flamer - better to make the squads focused on doing one job (shooting things with a lascannon) that always needs doing.

I dunno, it just seems like a basic guardsman is so horribly overpriced for what little it can do, taking more of them and less heavy weapons and not even taking special weapons just seems like a bad idea somehow.

I totally understand that line of thinking. Our resident IG guy has had a hard time moving away from it.

The smaller anti-tank squads can work but they have to have a leadership bubble and cover. Havng two casualties cause 3 heavy weapons run off the board is the pits.

I dont think you need to forgo the squads entirely, I just think you need a balance. The way stelek proposed it - lascannons in line squads, autocannons in the fire support squads is a good way to do it.

Extra bodies help for a lot of things - extra counter assault if needed, keeping the lascannon alive, speedbumps to prevent people getting to other teams, etc.

You end up with a little more than twice as many lascannons with half as many troops if you go with anti-tank squads instead of line squads. Unfortunately killing guardsmen is easy. But I understand being skeptical. I'd just play some games both ways and see what works.

lambadomy wrote:I dont think you need to forgo the squads entirely, I just think you need a balance. The way stelek proposed it - lascannons in line squads, autocannons in the fire support squads is a good way to do it.

So, something more like this?

(1994 Points) Models: 169
Doctrines: Rough Riders, Heavy Weapons Platoon, Drop Troops, Veterans, and Close Order Drill.

Command Platoon (276 Points):
Command Squad (86 Points)
Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperialis, Standard Bearer, 1 Cadian with Mortar, and 1 with Lasgun.
Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.
Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.

Hardened Veterans Squad:
Veteran Sergeant, 3 Veterans with Plasma Gun, and 1 Veteran with Lasgun. (75 Points)
Hardened Veterans Squad:
Veteran Sergeant, 3 Veterans with Plasma Gun, and 1 Veteran with Lasgun. (75 Points)
Hardened Veterans Squad:
Veteran Sergeant, 3 Veterans with Plasma Gun, and 1 Veteran with Lasgun. (75 Points)

Infantry Platoon (436 Points):
Command Squad (72 Points)
Junior Officer, 2 Cadians with Meltaguns, and 2 Cadians with Flamers.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.

Infantry Platoon (436 Points):
Command Squad (72 Points)
Junior Officer, 2 Cadians with Meltaguns, and 2 Cadians with Flamers.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.
Infantry Squad (91 Points)
8 Cadians with Lasgun, 1 Cadian with Flamer, 1 Cadian with Lascannon.

Rough Rider Squadron:
8 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances. (88 Points)
Rough Rider Squadron:
8 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances. (88 Points)
Rough Rider Squadron:
8 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances. (88 Points)

Heavy Weapons Platoon (357 Points):
Command Squad (72 Points)
Junior Officer, 2 Cadians with Meltaguns, and 2 Cadians with Flamers.
Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.
Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.
Fire Support Squad (95 Points)
3 Cadians with Lasgun, 3 Cadians with Autocannon.


Under this setup, we've got 8 lascannons, 15 Autocannons, 14 Flamers, 6 Meltaguns, and 9 Plasma Guns


Thoughts?

I'm no IG player, but do you think maybe you've gone a bit overboard with the RRs? They're good, but I don't know if you need three squads of them. Dropping one in order to get another lascannon into the list might be worthwhile.

What's with the mixed flamers and meltaguns in the command squads?

I played a list like this for a while. I think its quite strong. My experience with it is that something CC oriented always gets past the guns. For this reason i always ran a 30+ conscript unit with either commisar gaunt or an indy commissar. 4th edition line em up in front. identify what unit you think will get past the guns, ignore it... then tarpit...

My template was...

15 lascannons (6 HQ, 9 HS)
6 autocannons (6 HQ)
3 mortars (put em in my leadership bubble units for random casualties and pins)
6 heavy bolters (infantry squads)
plasma guns or grenade launchers (infantry squads)

I would split plasma and grenade launcher. You can always tell where you are going to need your infantry squads to be moving. I'd plop the grenade launcher units in that area, then at least they can do something while shuffling over to an objective.

autocannons and lascannons in the backfield, never split em up. Some armies just get picked apart by this list. And it's pretty fun. Just remember to plan ahead for objectives. Running at least 2 ten man HB squads at any that you may need to grab.

I really feel like conscripts are a lynchpin to the list. Unlike the rough riders, they don't really take away from your shooting. Which is important when facing high model count rushes from nids and orks. When 40 models double tap lasguns, even conscripts, people get hurt.

A skill that needs to be developed when you play a list like this is the "heave ho" you are going to be able to dominate stealer shock, but not until you understand how to heave ho the survivors. With iron disc and a leadership bubble/flag, your 10 mans won't run, and if you end up counter charging with 20-30 models, you'll just smother surviving stealers, and kick em out of your lines. Knowing what combats you need to "cauterize" (meaning get the hell away from 6" of) and what combats you need to dogpile into, make or break guard horde. If you see a combat thats about to break open on your turn, you have to anticipate that and throw some more bodies into it. If you are in a combat on his turn and you have your 6" pad, elect to NOT use the leadership bubble and the flag, take the loss and get ready to shoot the 'winners' to hell.

I hope you already own the models though. If you don't, I can't advocate buying them. this type of guard list has a lifespan of about 3 months. In july, this list will be unplayable until whenever GW decides to put out a new guard codex.

Shep wrote:

I hope you already own the models though. If you don't, I can't advocate buying them. this type of guard list has a lifespan of about 3 months. In july, this list will be unplayable until whenever GW decides to put out a new guard codex.

Really? Well, then, please tell me why before I go buying models.

Looks better. Still questionable on the flamers myself, and what are you taking objectives with?

I don't think it's as bad as Shep thinks it is, in regards to the IG gunline about to die.

The lascannons are for tanks, and everything else is for causing wounds.

Cameleoline will probably be more important.

I know why you have rough riders, but in 5th they'll get shot at alot by assault armies and with only a cover save to protect them they won't last long. Sisters will.
I'd highly recommend dropping COD and RR in favor of sharpshooters and cameleoline.

LD bubbles are nice, but not required if you have Sisters (who are essentially free ID). I'd drop the RR and consolidate all the squad flamers into some sisters squads to go take objectives with. They're the only sure thing, and they're cheap. Not as cheap as guardsmen, but they can take on anything. Guard can't.

don't like the flamers on the lascannon squads. they are better replaced by plasma, or just dropped. and for objectives you can use your rough riders very well. In fact a good idea might be to put 2 flamers in each RR squad, that way they can move up, ignite some baddies and still charge, or wait to be charged (as the hunting lance still works when the enemy charges) and that could get quite messy for hordes and even marines.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Shep wrote:

I hope you already own the models though. If you don't, I can't advocate buying them. this type of guard list has a lifespan of about 3 months. In july, this list will be unplayable until whenever GW decides to put out a new guard codex.

Really? Well, then, please tell me why before I go buying models.

I may have put a little bit too much melodrama in that statement. When you run horde guard, you tend to "stack" units in front of one another, under rumored 5th edition rules, friendly units block line of sight (possibly giving your opponent a 4+ cover save if you can see him through gaps in your own models, depending on which version of the rumors you are on). that means heavy weapons platoons will need to be unblocked by infantry squads. Which means that units will have clear runs at making assaults against them. Another reason massed heavy weapons works, is because you clump them together, any unit that takes a shot at one of your lascannon teams is going to eat 27 heavy weapons shots in return. If friendly models do indeed block LOS or give units an amazingly good cover save, then you will be forced to spread your deployment wide, which weakens the gun horde seriously. If they can attack heavy weapons teams while remaining out of LOS or range to the rest of the big guns, they can just pick you apart and roll you up.

Another issue that I have been having in my test games is how the winner of assaults is determined, or rather, the modifications to leadership from losing an assault. Nowadays, with the right number of guardsmen, and a nearby leadership bubble, I can hold up any CC unit in the game. Like i was saying earlier, some turns you want to break and some you want to hold. Under the new assault (rumored) rules. If you dogpile 2 or 3 10 man units into a CC, and lose combat by 3 or 4 wounds, you could VERY likely lose all 3 of those units to just a single assaulting unit. it really cripples the "heave ho"

I can't sit here and say you won't be able to play imperial guard in 5th edition because that would be ludicrous hyperbole. What i can say is that, with 'shooty' line infantry losing their ability to "stack". And with leman russes getting so many other bonuses, due to other new and cool rules, I just don't want you to go to the store blind and spend lots of money, and then get pissed when you have to shelve a lot of models until we get a new IG book. If you know about 5th, you understand whats going on, and want the models. Go for it. Guard rules and massed infantry formations are fun as hell.

For the record. I own 220+ painted vostroyans. I love guard very much, and I'm not trying to say anything like, "they suck" or "don't buy any they are lame" I have spent over $1200.00 on the army around $800.00 of it being on infantry models alone. I wouldn't return them even if i could I play lots of apocalypse and I know horde guard will be playable while I'm still playing 40k. But I was just offering out some intel for you so that you aren't blindsided by a change of edition while making a "wacky" IG army.

Plasma Guns with the Lascannons. Don't skimp on weapon options, and Flamers are the worst things to pair with Lascannons.

You don't need 24 Rough Riders.

Although they're Autocannons, you have a lot of guns tied to very few models. It'll be easy to shoot through.

Don't mix weapons. EVER. 4 Meltas or 4 Flamers. Personally, I'd ditch them all to put Plasmas in the line squads.

BYE

I think one of the rough rider squads would be much better as 20 conscripts. Conscripts are better if you can make them a fearless tarpit but even without that they'll help you more than a third squad of rough riders.

I've never tried the flamers in the lascannon squads but I can't imagine they'd be better than plasma.

I play around with drop troops but I think with this army instead of the veterans I'd just have more guys. if you want flamers go with 40 conscripts with flamers, heck give them heavy bolters too and make them really annoying.

But those are just cosmetic changes - I think this is a pretty good setup that you have overall.

Shep wrote:When you run horde guard, you tend to "stack" units in front of one another, under rumored 5th edition rules, friendly units block line of sight (possibly giving your opponent a 4+ cover save if you can see him through gaps in your own models, depending on which version of the rumors you are on). that means heavy weapons platoons will need to be unblocked by infantry squads. Which means that units will have clear runs at making assaults against them. Another reason massed heavy weapons works, is because you clump them together, any unit that takes a shot at one of your lascannon teams is going to eat 27 heavy weapons shots in return. If friendly models do indeed block LOS or give units an amazingly good cover save, then you will be forced to spread your deployment wide, which weakens the gun horde seriously. If they can attack heavy weapons teams while remaining out of LOS or range to the rest of the big guns, they can just pick you apart and roll you up.

Another issue that I have been having in my test games is how the winner of assaults is determined, or rather, the modifications to leadership from losing an assault. Nowadays, with the right number of guardsmen, and a nearby leadership bubble, I can hold up any CC unit in the game. Like i was saying earlier, some turns you want to break and some you want to hold. Under the new assault (rumored) rules. If you dogpile 2 or 3 10 man units into a CC, and lose combat by 3 or 4 wounds, you could VERY likely lose all 3 of those units to just a single assaulting unit. it really cripples the "heave ho"

I see what you mean. I think I will definitely have to shelve this idea until after 5th edition is released, and then re-examine the feasibility.

wait what are you talking about 0-2 fire support, meaning heavy weapon squads? It says he can have up to 5 squads I thought. 0-2 anti tank, 0-2 fire support, 0-2 mortar, 0-1 sentinel, 0-2 or 3? special weapons. Ill have to re read this. Otherwise ive been playing it wrong for the past 2 years. His original list looks legal to me.

The original list I thought was good. VERY similar to mine. I think the heavy weapon platoons are really good. Some are paraniod about only 6 men but its more cost effective than anything else and nasty. My list which is similar has given me about 40 wins and 4 losses. My only recomendation would be to give the squads a plasma gun/LC combo or a HB/GL combo. WOrks a little better I think.