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I played an eldar player way back in January and a circumstance came up where the Base of the vehicle was behind the hill, however the rest of the vehicle, the hull/front part was over the hill. Did I have line of site or not? Even though a large part of the vehicle was "on/over" the hill. Its not like an antenna or blade, it was the curved front part of the MAIN vehicle. So what is your call?

Line of sight and "base to base" situations for vehicles are determined by the vehicle's hull not it's flight base. The shooting rules specify the hull for shooting and line of sight. I forget exactly where the "base to base" rules are, but you'll probably want to check the vheicals in assault section of the main book...that or the FAQ.

as with everything else, the rule of "if it can see you, then you can see it" applies.

did you by chance happen to set a height for the hill (like level 2) before the game? This helps immensely with detirmining los. Anyway, as has been said vehicle bases mean nothing, they're just there for astetic purposes. Use the actual model and remember to designate terrain height before the game (remembering that only level 3 terrain blocks los to vehicles since they are also level 3)

Dakkaladd wrote: and remember to designate terrain height before the game (remembering that only level 3 terrain blocks los to vehicles since they are also level 3)

And also remembering that hills aren't Area Terrain, and so only need a Size category for determining the Size of models standing on top of them.

To draw LOS to a model behind the hill, you would be using normal LOS. If you can draw a LOS to the hull of the vehicle, then you have LOS to it.

Hrm... so it's better for skimmers NOT to use bases... allows them to hide behind hills better, etc. Tau landing gears conveniently allow you not to scratch up too much of your model, too.

Interesting...

as with everything else, the rule of "if it can see you, then you can see it" applies.

Not true. Not true at all.

With vehicles LoS is measured from the tip of the barrel to the enemy and from the enemy to the hull of the tank. So for tanks like the lemun russ that have turrets that stick out farther than the hull, it's possible to shoot at something that has a gun with an equal range and not be able to be shot back at.

Also:


the tank has LoS to 2 and 3, but only 3 has LoS to it.

-LE037

The only time base size is used for range is for non vehicle models. For all vehicle models, line of sight can be drawn to any part of the vehicle hull.

If the enemy was a skimmer, would a hill really matter?

Geddonight wrote:Hrm... so it's better for skimmers NOT to use bases... allows them to hide behind hills better, etc.

But also reduces LOS from the model.

Cypher037 wrote:With vehicles LoS is measured from the tip of the barrel to the enemy and from the enemy to the hull of the tank. So for tanks like the lemun russ that have turrets that stick out farther than the hull, it's possible to shoot at something that has a gun with an equal range and not be able to be shot back at.

That is incorrect. Per page 64 of the BGB, you use the weapon mounting to determine LOS for a weapon. The FAQ only states that you use the muzzle of the weapon to measure range. Therefore the tank in your example can't shoot anything as the weapon mounting is behind the wall.

Can someone point me to where is says that Line-of-sight is drawn to the hull.

A friend and I discussed this the other day.

A Leman Russ in an emplacement or tankpit with only the turret showing can obviously fire its weapon, but can it be hit back, since the hull is hidden?

If you can shoot you can be shot. It is just that simply and to even ask is in bad taste in my opinion.

G

So. no rule as such but a convention?

I am on the road this week and do not have all my rulebooks and FAQs available as it is not a habit of mine to travel with them.

G

OK. Ill just repost or bumb in a few days. I am a patient man.

I will be at Adepticon next week.

G

GreenBF-I will be at Adepticon next week.

G

I hate you.

The best we have here in Brisbane, Aus is a GT once a year , the occaisional 'Conflict'-and that's about it.

This year, we are having to go to a 'Gen-Con ' event, and the GW stuff has a 'section' allocated to it.

No offense GBF, but IMHO, that blows lol

Green Blow Flies are supposed to blow... pestilence and disease that is... when they are not busy biting Imperial Space Marines. Haaaa!

G

Steelmage99 wrote:Can someone point me to where is says that Line-of-sight is drawn to the hull.

There's no specific rule for vehicles.

Page 21 tells us to draw LOS to the 'body' of a model. Most players interpret that to mean the main hull of a vehicle.

What that actually includes is up to you and your opponent.

did the skimmer shoot? if it shot you then you can shoot it. I believe eldar have/had an ugrade allowing them to duck back down after shooting which stops this. End of the day it it didn't shoot you then you might as well shoot something else as it's not you main threat. It may cause issues later but take out other targets. Technically if it didn't shoot then your opponent didn't get their maximum potential from it and so this gives you an advantage in less obvious ways. You taken less hits while being able to inflict your maximum....

The FAQ is very clear that for range, you measure FROM the tip of the barrel for a vehicle weapon, and TO the hull of the vehicle, or the base if it’s a walker.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/40k_rulebook_faq.pdf

LOS is not quite so clear. As noted, LOS is drawn to the “body” of the model. And when drawing LOS FROM a vehicle, you trace it from the weapon mount. While this is certainly not the same as “If you can shoot you can be shot”, I’ve yet to meet anyone who would be cool with NOT being allowed to shoot at the vehicle turret which just shot at them. There will certainly be some circumstances with vehicles where mutual LOS does not exist, though. Such as (for example) when the back third or quarter of a Leman Russ is visible behind a forest. It’s definitely a legal target, but without moving, there’s no way the LR will be able to draw LOS back to the firer as the forest will block its guns.

Covenant- Pop up attacks are gone from the Eldar vehicles. Only Eldar jetbikes and Tau Crisis and Stealth suits can do them now.

Sororitas- Skimmers work just like other vehicles for LOS except when specific exceptions exist. For example, they do not block LOS. For another example, when a skimmer is moved onto area terrain, it is considered to hover above it, and is not obscured by that particular piece of terrain. Hills interact with skimmers exactly the same way as they do with every other vehicle for LOS purposes. The hill blocks its exact physical profile, and if you can see around or over it and draw LOS to the vehicle (specifically its “body”), then you can shoot.

That makes sense, and going back to the above sketch the tank will not be able to shoot person three and vice versa - measuring from the weapon mount, not the tip of the barrel. That didn't sit too happy with me before - a battle canon barrel is not bendy lol. In effect that means you do measure hull to hull, except when the tank is in a bunker etc. Personally if that situation is likly to occur in a game I would set a house rule in advance with the oppontent, something along the lines of - the tank can be shot, but any damage rol other than weapon destroyed (for the visible weapon) or crew stunned (the crew in the turret) is ignored (as opposed to taking a cover save from the sandbags etc). Logically this makes sense to me.....what others think is a different matter.

Yeah, house rules like that can be fun with a friend, but generally aren’t a practical option when playing pickup or tournament games with strangers.

In my experience, most players at tournaments have no problem agreeing that turrets, sponsons, huge gun barrels, and other large parts of a vehicle are valid targets. It’s banner poles, antennae, and such which people usually agree to ignore. Still, since the rulebook is not super clear on just what counts as the “body” of a vehicle, it’s definitely worth discussing before the game begins.

Now, this is looking at it fluffwise, but if you can see the barrel, you can in fact destroy the tank. Most tank guns will be loaded, and if you hit the barrel, destroying the shell/plasma-thingy/laser-chargeup it will probably start a chain reaction that could ignite the entire tank, which would make trying to shoot in a sneaky-like fashion very risky. So, looking at it fluffily, which is of course always a last resort, if you can see the barrel, you can shoot the tank.

Ok so measure to the hull. So I was right. THe hill we said was area terrain and size 3. But since the hull was over the top of the hill, then I can see it. I gues I played it right then.

Hills should never be classed as area terrain, unless you're going to move models through them.

They have a Size category solely to determine the Size of models standing on top of them.

Two Daemons in a Bar I'm not sure i entirly agree with you. I'm not saying your wrong as if you shoot the barrel, damage it, tank shoots and goes bang. But the shell is not 'loaded' in the barrel, it would be located within the turret where the breach is. also if you look at the diagram and swivvel the turret at the swivel point then the barrel is actually aimed at the wall and doesn't have LOS, hence my earlier argument, barrels are not bendy and measuring is from the Weapon mount not the weapon tip, technically meaning that unless you can see the hull (usual place to lacate the weapons mount) you won't actually be able to shoot. But as I said if you shoot the barrel and damage it this could result in your chain reaction theory, however I don't think the rules takes this sort of action into account, it would get too complicated.

smart_alex wrote:Ok so measure to the hull. So I was right. THe hill we said was area terrain and size 3. But since the hull was over the top of the hill, then I can see it. I gues I played it right then.

If you agreed before the game that the hill would be considered size 3 area terrain, nothing in the game would be able to see over it. I’ve occasionally seen people agree to do so if it’s a particularly large hill/has rough protrusions and stuff on top of it, and they don’t feel like bothering with true LOS. Still, that would be the exception to the rule. Hills are not normally defined as area terrain, and IME usually don’t have sizes unless you want to give them one to let models on top see over size 2 assaults and area terrain features.

Mannahnin wrote:If you agreed before the game that the hill would be considered size 3 area terrain, nothing in the game would be able to see over it.

Then it would no longer be a hill. It would be Area Terrain. A model can be on a hill and use the hill's height to see over other Area Terrain. A model can only be in Area Terrain and it grants no special height advantages other than WYSIWYG.

Any one who tries to find loopholes like this should have their eyes poked out!

Its common sense that the tank in the above pic can not shoot at fig. 2 the turret has a pivot point and LINE OF SIGHT means just that. can you see around corners?
No, would a shell fired from a barrel suddenly turn 90 degrees and head off in a different direction? No, you have to draw a line of sight from a weapons ARC OF FIRE.

These cheesy loopholes will lead to people mountaing 48" barrels and saying on the first turn "my Leman Russ is shooting your tank in the rear armour!