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To start, I am not asking how to make a press mold, or if using a press mold of a copyrighted piece is legal, because I already know both of those things.

I am in a unique position, I began making a preheresy space wolves army last summer, started redoing my orks when the codex came out, then decided to go back to my heavily converted SWs. As i was finishing my orks, GW decided that they were not going to do bitz orders anymore, so the fact that my army is wearing MK5 heresy armor has become a financial burden I can no longer bear. I have explored my options, and thus I come to the true question,

If I use a press mold, made with a GW copyrighted part, to impress a design upon another GW copyrighted part, is this illegal, and could it get me into trouble if I use it in a gaming event and someone found out. I can make the MK5 shoulder pad on the standard shoulderpad with the press mold, but I am worried about possible legal issues, because, though it is certainly their right, I have been told GW nails copyright infringers to the wall by their nethers and shakes the wall till all the money falls out of their pockets.

Forgive me if this is an inappropriate question, but the laws of fair use and copyright infringement are somewhat beyond me.

So if I'm reading you correctly, you are going to take a GW part (shoulderpad), and modify it to look like another GW part, (another shoulderpad). If this is correct, then it's my opinion that you are totally in the clear.

1) You are not attempting to take away money from GW.
2) Materials used are GW parts.
3) You are essentially simply making a modification that could also be done with green stuff and a dremel.
4) You are not attempting to profit from the exercise.

Um... it sure sounds like you have the definition of "converting" a GW model, which is alright.

If modifing GW models is illegal, I better take down all the pictures I've been posting.

CRAP CONVERSION IS ILLEGAL!? lol

Hehe, no its not so much that I am asking if converting is legal, although for some it should be, Im asking if press molding a GW part and using that press mold to alter another GW part is illegal. The issue is that concept one of mikhalla's argument is questionably applicable. I am using GW parts to make something cheaper than purchasing them in mass quantity.

I would say yeah. However I am not a lawyer and I do not think anyone would turn you in. Just be careful if you play in a GW store. Those guys might be wierd about it.

As long as you don't flaunt it, I have a hard time believing anyone would find out. Legal or not.

-LE037

I think you're sweatin it way too much. GW goes after folks who try to steal profits from them by mass producing and selling anything that veers into GW's intellectual property. If you were selling packs of shoulder pads, or warlord titans for example, and advertising and promoting it, I'm sure you would get a letter or threat to knock it off. GW doesn't have the time, energy or interest in running down someone making stuff for their own army. It comes down to this...does GW stand to make or lose money by prosecuting you?

I think people get way too worried about what is and isn't legal about copying GW designs. Sure recasting exact copies of GW models for a profit is clearly wrong, but short of that, just modding GW models for your own personal use is always going to be OK - it clearly falls outside of the definition of "counterfeiting".

Despite what GW's legal department might want you to believe (although to be fair to GW they have a track record of being pretty relaxed with hobbyists doing stuff for personal use) the laws over other artists reusing copyrighted designs in the production of their own work are actually pretty liberal.

They have to be otherwise Andy Warhol would never have been able to do this:

Copying a company's designs without permission is against copyright except under the conditions of fair use. Your proposed use isn't fair use.

However, since GW no longer sell the parts you need, I believe ethically you are in the clear. I also doubt anyone would be able to detect what you had done.

If you want to be totally in the clear, write to GW explaining your situation, and ask for permission to make your copies. They might manage to scare up a bundle of the parts you need rather than give you permission.

Kilkrazy wrote:Copying a company's designs without permission is against copyright except under the conditions of fair use. Your proposed use isn't fair use.

However, since GW no longer sell the parts you need, I believe ethically you are in the clear. I also doubt anyone would be able to detect what you had done.

If you want to be totally in the clear, write to GW explaining your situation, and ask for permission to make your copies. They might manage to scare up a bundle of the parts you need rather than give you permission.

Then GW's Legal division pops out of the bushes and screams "APRIL FOOLS!"

I'm not getting the issue. I believe GW itself once did a greenstuff article on how to do that. Its your minis, being used for personal use. Now shut up yo face and get back to building that preHeresy force and post some pics

Elnicko5 wrote: I have been told GW nails copyright infringers to the wall by their nethers and shakes the wall till all the money falls out of their pockets.

And yet they still haven't managed to stick it to Scibor over at CMON.

I agree with the others that, considering your intent, you'd be totally cool.

jfrazell wrote:I'm not getting the issue. I believe GW itself once did a greenstuff article on how to do that. Its your minis, being used for personal use. Now shut up yo face and get back to building that preHeresy force and post some pics

True story.

If you're casting the stuff for yourself it's fine. If you're trying to sell any of it though that is a violation. The catch is is that if you get tired of this army for whatever reason and want to sell it then you wouldn't be able to sell any of the stuff you made this way. Also, GW might have horrible game support, but they don't have a secret police force that is going to kick in your door in the middle of the night and drag your minis into an unmarked van. You'll be fine.

No but your place might "accidentally" catch fire. Ask Stelek...

I knew it! Stelek's landlord is a red shirt in disguise!

Copyright law is a tricky and subtle thing. Based on GW's past behavior, I don't think you have anything to worry about with your proposed conversion. There were instructions for doing something similar in White Dwarf once.

Thanks for the replies, I was worried about the redshirts at the store that I frequent, but so be it. If your interested in Pics Ill get some up as soon as I get a decent amount of work done, but that will require another thread, and probibally a new camera for me, but hey, I got a decent income tax return.

If you're worried about the redshirts at your store, then DON'T TELL THEM you pressmoulded them. Tell them they were all individually sculpted onto the sodding shoulderpads.

He might 'suspect' otherwise, but suspicion =/= proof, and unless you have the mould with you and use it in front of him, proof will be hard to get.

In general, from my not-a-lawyer point of view I think 'legal vs. illegal' is a question for the courts... I'm more worried about 'actionable'. I.E., is it worth GW's time and effort to pursue it?

I think that to be actionable (not from a true legal perspective, but from a down-and-dirty perspective) it needs to be infringement and needs to be somewhat blatant.

If you're going to do it, don't rub it in GW's face. Don't post how-tos that show you doing it. Don't make money off it, or if you must, don't advertise unless you like getting sued.

Stormtrooper X wrote:

jfrazell wrote:I'm not getting the issue. I believe GW itself once did a greenstuff article on how to do that. Its your minis, being used for personal use. Now shut up yo face and get back to building that preHeresy force and post some pics

True story.

If you're casting the stuff for yourself it's fine. If you're trying to sell any of it though that is a violation. The catch is is that if you get tired of this army for whatever reason and want to sell it then you wouldn't be able to sell any of the stuff you made this way. Also, GW might have horrible game support, but they don't have a secret police force that is going to kick in your door in the middle of the night and drag your minis into an unmarked van. You'll be fine.

That is correct.
In fact, I will take it one step further...

If you have the ability and raw materials, you could make molds of a few GW minis and cast yourself a 10,000 point army out of them. GW doesn't have the right to do crap. You can make the copies for your own use. What you can't do is give them away, sell them, etc.

Once you do THAT, you're potentially in deep doo doo.


Eric

If you have the ability and raw materials, you could make molds of a few GW minis and cast yourself a 10,000 point army out of them. GW doesn't have the right to do crap. You can make the copies for your own use. What you can't do is give them away, sell them, etc.

This is very much NOT correct. There is no right to infringe someone's copyright "for your own use." You have some fair use rights; in the case of digital works, these rights may extend to archival copies. There is decidedly no similar fair use argument to let you make innumerable copies of a physical piece, and particularly not just to spare yourself expense.

This comes up all the time. there was a thread a while back about copyrights, and I'm not going to launch into it all again, but I can give you the quick and dirty version:

Very few legal principles are complicated. Even complex areas such as tax, securities trading, and intellectual property are complicated in application, not in principle. the bedrock principle of copyright law is this: you can't make copies of things that you didn't create.

It's that simple. The answer to the question "can I make a copies of what I bought" is almost always "No."

the mitigating factor here is that you are using a copywritten item (another GW bit) to make a copy. You are converting the original into a copy of another original. . Since there is no money on the table, the ability of GW to even make a colorable claim (meaning it could survive a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim) is diminished, but not eliminated.

MagickalMemories wrote:If you have the ability and raw materials, you could make molds of a few GW minis and cast yourself a 10,000 point army out of them. GW doesn't have the right to do crap. You can make the copies for your own use.

What you can't do is give them away, sell them, etc.

That is false. If you're recasting you're violating copyright, even if you're making them for your own personal consumption.

OTOH, for the most part if you sculpt your own stuff, incorporating NO GW parts or designs, then you can cast whatever you like for your own personal consumption.

Getting back to the OP, if you're using GW Green Stuff to make a press mold of a GW bit to convert another GW bit, then you might actually be OK. GW won't be able to demonstrate any lost sales because *ALL* of your materials are GW materials.

Balance wrote:In general, from my not-a-lawyer point of view I think 'legal vs. illegal' is a question for the courts... I'm more worried about 'actionable'. I.E., is it worth GW's time and effort to pursue it?

Actually, it depends on whether GW needs or wants to make a legal point or not. If GW needs to demonstrate enforcement of IP, then they will crush a guy who infringes $10 to prevent anybody from trying to infringe $10,000. In the case of a little guy, the likely penalty is destruction of the press mold and converted products and agreement not to engage in such activities against liquidated damages. A bigger guy, GW should drive into bankruptcy.

Very important point: GW doesn't need to show lost sales, or in fact any other damages to file suit. US law allows for set statutory damages that can be replaced for actual damages. Even if not sold, a copier may find himself liable for a couple hundred dollars (IIRC) simply for violating copyright.

GW needs to show exactly two things to win a lawsuit: that it holds the copyright, and that the defendant violated it. Nothing else is important to filing and winning a lawsuit.

Except that GW encourages and highlights conversions, and provided ALL of the the very tools used to do so.

I'm not sure what your point is. Conversions aren't copies. You can buy a Terminator and convert it into a librarian. What is being described is the following:
Buying a model
Using it to create a mold
Using the mold to create copies

That's a violation of copyright. If the question is "will I get sued?", that's a much more difficult question.

There's a lot of false information out there regarding copyrights, which is a shame considering how much of the actual law is available for free over the internet or at your local law library.

If I use a press mold to convert an unstudded shoulder pad to a studded shoulder pad with green stuff, it's not really making a copy. If I were casting the entire pad in toto, then that would be making a copy.

But using a press mold to add bumps seems no different than using a stencil or straightedge.