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stormboy97 wrote:forgive me if im wrong but you dont work for GW yor not part of the rules development team and while Adepticon is an indy gt it is part of the GAMES WORKSHOP TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT... which means you follow their rules

im sorry but if that is how things are going to be run, my team will not be attending. we have already cancelled our reservations and have decided we are not going to be attending

so you are not going because they cleared up the rules problems before hand???
Have you guys been there before?
my 6 or 7 teams if we can work it out will be there in force lifting a beer high singing praise for Jeff, Hank , Ogre(after a few drinks) and the whole FAQ team

this is the best event all year long you could go to, better than a regular GT by far even though cuddos to Dave T for making this year alot better and moving forward.
The biggest problem you could have is a rules dispute and this way it's in black and white ahead of time...

And GW hasn't done one in forever, why do a FAQ when you can just redo the rules instead.

it doesnt matter if GW hasnt done an FAQ in forever, those are the rules in place at this time.. and how many times has some of the absolutely obscure event actually happend?

what matters is a select group of individuals feeling that they have the sole right and gods gift to re write rules as they see fit for an official function. they call it an independant GT but yet it is a part of the GW tournament circuit. that right there says all we need to know about whats going to go on at this event

number 2 are you planning on handing out your 70 page faq to each and every 40k player at this event? we all know the answer to this is a no so the people that live on boards like these will have a huge advantage.

the other fact that has been acknowledged is the fact these rules we re written based on a non official leaked pdf thats origin is entirely left to doubt on its actual worth

let me inform alot of you on the following facts
all rules books come out in the fall near christmas always have
the project arrives at the printer 6 months before its due to come out
this si the exact same leaked pdf from a year and a half ago

rulings made off of this unofficial source has no more validity than a used handkerchief... that alone invalidates all of your hard work im sorry to say
Yak you yourself admitted to making rulings based off of this.. im sorry you felt like you needed to use unofficial sources to validate what is in effect your own personal opinions on these obscure rulings

the fact that these are to adopted as gods gospel for this event doesnt make them any more official than hill billy bobs ruling in podunk idaho next month

yes my team has decided to skip this event for this reason as well as others but primarily this one

so before you come back and try to convince me on the merits of this major undertaking which i have acknowledged as a great effort it still doesnt make it official so please

my last point is if in fact they worked with gw and had gw support for this faq then i would support but i cannot allow the views misguided or not to try to force feed their personal opinions down the throats of the community at large and try to make this a world wide faq which has been expressed as a possible goal for this faq

i can tell you right now when the news breaks for the Charlotte Independant GT in 2009 this faq will not be used
the sheer fact that they will have to deal with the new edition makes that neccessary

No-one's saying it's official.

I am saying that in the absence of an official FAQ, an unofficial FAQ that gets widely accepted will be widely used. The more widely used it is, the wider and wider it will get used.

GW are never going to support anyone's FAQ.

Rle68, could you please make an effort to improve your grammar, punctuation and spelling? It will make your posts easier to read and add credibility as well.

Thanks!

Rle68 wrote:
it doesnt matter if GW hasnt done an FAQ in forever, those are the rules in place at this time.. and how many times has some of the absolutely obscure event actually happend?

The rules are inadequate for tournament play. There are so many holes and contradictions that something needs to be done. If you think that you can play with others from across the country and not have frequent rules disputes, you are very naive. Do you know that the UKGT has unofficial rules to cover some of the bigger loopholes?

what matters is a select group of individuals feeling that they have the sole right and gods gift to re write rules as they see fit for an official function. they call it an independent GT but yet it is a part of the GW tournament circuit. that right there says all we need to know about what’s going to go on at this event

We will put this in the “You’re not the boss of me!” file.

So what you are saying is that you would rather go to a tournament and not know how the different rules are going to be interpreted until a judge comes over to the table to makes a ruling?

number 2 are you planning on handing out your 70 page faq to each and every 40k player at this event? we all know the answer to this is a no so the people that live on boards like these will have a huge advantage.

Since you have to go to the internets and go to the Adepticon website (where you can see the FAQs) to sign up for Adepticon. I think you can make a reasonable assumption that the players will know about it. Also most of the players are not rolling out of there bed and deciding to play that morning, but are coming a long way my guess will be that they are going to be well versed with the FAQ. And really, the FAQs are minor clarifications not wholesale changes to the rules. I would imagine that you can go without the FAQ, and never have an issue that will come up where you need them.

the other fact that has been acknowledged is the fact these rules we re written based on a non official leaked pdf thats origin is entirely left to doubt on its actual worth

let me inform alot of you on the following facts
all rules books come out in the fall near christmas always have
the project arrives at the printer 6 months before its due to come out
this si the exact same leaked pdf from a year and a half ago

Yakface wrote several paragraphs of why the rule was amended, and then at the end he tacked on the note that it looks like this will be the rule in 5th edition. It looks like you are looking for reasons not to use the FAQ when you totally ignore the long reasoning behind the rule and focus on the last sentence.

rulings made off of this unofficial source has no more validity than a used handkerchief... that alone invalidates all of your hard work im sorry to say
Yak you yourself admitted to making rulings based off of this.. im sorry you felt like you needed to use unofficial sources to validate what is in effect your own personal opinions on these obscure rulings

Instead a tournament judge with questionable amount of rules knowledge is more of a more valid source for a rules decision?

the fact that these are to adopted as gods gospel for this event doesn’t make them any more official than hill billy bobs ruling in podunk idaho next month

They are only official in the events that choose to use them, nothing more. They are not saying that these are the rules that everyone in the US has to play by.

yes my team has decided to skip this event for this reason as well as others but primarily this one

I bet your team as other reasons why not to come, because not going to Adepticon because of the FAQs is a lame one.

so before you come back and try to convince me on the merits of this major undertaking which i have acknowledged as a great effort it still doesnt make it official so please

my last point is if in fact they worked with gw and had gw support for this faq then i would support but i cannot allow the views misguided or not to try to force feed their personal opinions down the throats of the community at large and try to make this a world wide faq which has been expressed as a possible goal for this faq

You will never get the support of GW. So I guess you would rather just force feed your opinions to your opponent.

i can tell you right now when the news breaks for the Charlotte Independant GT in 2009 this faq will not be used
the sheer fact that they will have to deal with the new edition makes that neccessary

That is correct because all of these problems in this FAQ stem from 4th edition. Of course the next FAQ will deal with all of the 5th edition rules problems, and then we will see what they use.

Very articulate as always blackmoor

I have to say chi-town is one of the most competative areas that I have ever played in, I want every possible thing spelled out for before I walk into there. I know that im going to have some games that are going to come down to the wire, the one dice roll for it all, which is how it's supposed to be.
Not getting caught flat-footed with some local rule that is played totally diferent some where else.

this isn't about doing something that no one wants or trying to change things

It's about filling a void
the GT tournament scene was dying a slow death for a while( I know I was there for alot of it)
Adepticon started small and then just exploded because there was a void to fill

The FAQ is the same, GW isn't doing it, so they are to support there event which is to make make Adepticon even better.
They put so much of there blood, sweat, and tears into and then offered it to the community.....and actually asked for a responce so that they could make it better and fix any problems that are still there.

And yes they know 5th is coming out later this year, so what it was still done.

This is a free country so everyone has a opinion which is awesome

You don't agree don't go to adepticon or anywhere else they use it. Or where some local has his own FAQ .

If it wasn't for adepticon puting on such a good show there was a fair chance there wouldn't even be a US GT at all or it would be like the one and I repeat only one we had in 2005. Anyone remember how much that one sucked?

You all should be singing there praise instead of( Pulling A Dakka ) that means whining and complaining just to make noise.
You want to claim Dakka fexs and the 6 man las-plas as all you then you can have that one too.

nuff said

Rle68: " a select group of individuals feeling that they have the sole right and gods gift to re write rules as they see fit for an official function"

First off while we are apart of the GW Tourney Circuit for the second year. AdeptiCon is not an offical GW function. It is organized and ran by hobbyists .. not GW staff. AdeptiCon has has an FAQ for the past several years. The fact that the GW circuit has some diversity .. frankly is one of it's great strengths.. it has something for everyone.

As far as right .. Well a good many folks volunteer a great number of hours to run this event. The effort and time spent on OUR event ( I'm spending 2+ hours a day on average ) .. gives us the right to run it the way we see fit. More so .. it's been the feedback over the years from our attendees that put the FAQ into place. See AdeptiCon would not have grown from the little local RTT event it was 6 years ago to an event now that is over 600 players .. if we didn't listen to the feedback and give our attendees the sort of event they want and are looking for .. If there wasn't a call for it. We certainly would not have put the work into it. We don't have the man hours to waste on a project that is not needed.

Disagree all you like with the FAQ. That's the point and just reaffrims what we all know. Heck just reading these threads should tell you that if you can not even get agreement on the RAW .. how are you suppose to get agreement on the real grey areas. No one will 100% agree with any FAQ. The real question is .. do you want to know in advance, do you want the most common calls to be consistant over the weekend from judge to judge, or do you want to show up .. and if you need to get a judges call be at the mercy of our understanding of the rules anyway .. or d6 it? We are just being up front about it.

Additionally if you go check all the other Indy events that are apart of the Tourney circuit you will find .. *gasp* unoffical FAQ use. Be it the Direwolf for WFB, some clarified house rules, or some larger effort.

So I guess you won't be attending any of them either.

Which you know what is still fine because you still have the Offical GT and GD events in order to compete in the GW Circuit. If last year was any indication ... I'm sure the GT's will be outstanding this year...

As for Adepticon .. your going to miss one hell of a weekend and a good time.

So basically everyone but a select handful of people love the FAQ? Please add me to the horde of people who happily embrace this document.

The vote in the Discussions forum is 58% in favour.

Man-O-Man. No good deed goes unpunished huh?

If you have read this thread, you are the type of person who will download and read the FAQ beforehand. So no bellyaching about it. You will know what the calls are. People who play tons of 40K but never ever ever use the internet will be at a slight disadvantage. You should feel free to lord this over all three of them.

It makes me mad to see people impugning the motives of the faq writers. Yak bought this site so he could keep it going. The Adepticon council guys built their own amazing convention. They put so much time into this stuff. They aren't twelve. They are not just trying to gain a competitive advantage for themselves or their friends. They're just not. If you won't believe this, I just don't know what to tell you. How many people have to vouch for these guys?

Even if you don't like the faq, everyone has to admit that Yak has gone way above and beyond the call of duty in responding to people's questions and concerns. He has also made it perfectly clear that he is open to making changes if the current doc is found to be wanting. Got a problem with the FAQ? It's not like the writers have been hard to reach about it. This is crowdsourcing the problem at its best.

I think most of the "controversy" here is due to inexperienced players who think that they are experts.

Good work fellows. May this FAQ spread far.

Anyone who thinks that GW's development team are in any way more qualified to make FAQ rulings than anyone else should go back and read their rulebook codices, mark all the mistakes and loopholes with a highlighter, and then use said highlighter to write "I am incapable of consistent judgment" across their own forehead.

the fact is they countermanded existing rules because they didnt like gw's ruling on them. thats fact plain and simple

im have never said the rules didnt need tweaking but where i object is you made up rules that personally you dont have the right to do

if you want to make up your own rules then drop out of the GAMES WORKSHOP TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT or make up your own adepticon tournament circuit either way your changing rules as you see fit and there can be no defense for this

and for all of you harping about at least youll know what the rules are in advance.. i do know what the rules are in advance, gw has a rule book and you know i think they ran a tournament circuit last year.. they didnt need a made up faq to host one either

Rle68 wrote:but where i object is you made up rules that personally you dont have the right to do

Yeah. How dare they think that running a tournament gives them the right to run the tournament.

You can't go playing willy-nilly with the forces of wargaming! It's un-natural, and no good will come of it, you mark my words!

Gather your pitchforks and torches, men!

if they want to run their own event then thats one thing, but they petitioned to be a part of GAMES WORKSHOPS TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT.

that means you dont go making up rules because you dont like them

you want to be a part of the circuit you follow the rules by the people that make the game

and insaniak your petty little mewling doesnt help the situation

either add something constructive to the discussion or save your smart ass comments for someone else who cares

either way i dont care

we all know you have had your lips surgically attached to the powers that be backsides you dont need to prove that fact to anyone

its like i said a select group of a few individuals have decided they have the right and the power to make the rules change to fit them and their close friends

ill go out on a limb right now and say that the majority of the winners will be close to the organisers for this event... and you think no one will notice that fact ?

you can say all you want about how the rules need clarification.... you know what thats a load of bull. There are discrepencies that arise from time to time but the game has been running at a fair level for a number of years and it hasnt stopped yet. there has never been a world wide stoppage of play thet we needed the internet saviours to save us from a game we already are playing

you REVISIONISTS need to go make your own game and stopping adding salt to the cooking pot

we all have rules we dont agree with, but the fact is we play it the way its written and we live with it

Rle68 wrote:if they want to run their own event then thats one thing, but they petitioned to be a part of GAMES WORKSHOPS TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT.

...and...?

Where, exactly, is the rule governing what game rules a 'Games Workshop Tournament Circuit' event is allowed to put in place?

Because GW appear to disagree with you. From the GW US Website '08 Tournaments section:

"It is important to note that each event continues to be it’s own discrete affair, with it’s own winners and prizes and trophies. Individual tournaments will retain their own rules and flavor that regular attendees have come to know and love. Each event has it’s own spin on things, and we’re big fans of the diversity and enthusiasm supplied by each organizing team. Being a part of the GW Tournament circuit just means that if you happen to play at a few of these events, you could be eligible for extra prizes, fame, and glory!"


So, according to GW, having their own rules for the event is a part of what the tournament circuit is all about...

that means you dont go making up rules because you dont like them

Well, no, you don't go making up rules that you don't like, because that would be silly. Nothing to do with whether or not you're a part of the 'Games Workshop Tournament Circuit.'


Seriously, is all the vitriol really necessary? It's game rules they're tinkering with... it's not like they're drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa.

Rle68 wrote:
ill go out on a limb right now and say that the majority of the winners will be close to the organisers for this event... and you think no one will notice that fact ?

That's a pretty serious accusation. I mean, it's couched in so much ambiguity that it really doesn't mean anything (ADepticon has a huge staff of organizers, and gamers are fairly close knit group, so odds are the winners will have some relation to at least one organizer), but you're essentially labelling the organizers as both corrupt and stupid.

Corrupt because you're accusing them of trying to rig a tournament so their friends can win.

Stupid because creating an exhaustive FAQ that is peer reviewed and written is the hardest way to rig a tournament, with the least chance of success. If they really wanted their friends to win, they'd either leak the missions, jimmy the swiss pairing system for favourable matchups, or simply massage soft scores for the desire result. All this so their friends can win a couple hundred bucks in prizes, while the biggest 40k event in the US get's a reputation for being rigged? Ask any FLGS that started cooking tournaments how quickly attendence dwindled. These guys aren't idiots, and there's more to be gained from running the best event then by cheating.

Clearly you oppose this FAQ, but that's no reason to impuge the honor of gentlemen that are trying to run a tournament.

If someone thinks the Adepticon committee made an FAQ just to get some advantages for their army, here's what to do.

1. Find out what armies the committee members play.
2. Check through the FAQ and find the number of rulings that benefit and hurt those armies.
3. Find the number of rulings that benefit and hurt other armies.
4. Find the total number of rulings that affect the game generally, not one particular army.
5. Count the total number of different armies possible to take to the event.
6. Do statistical analysis of your data to show that rulings pro committee armies outweigh the rulings pro other armies and the general rulings by a significant degree of correlation.

If you do all that people will listen to you, otherwise they will just take it as bleating.

Rle68 wrote:either add something constructive to the discussion or save your smart ass comments for someone else who cares

Oh the hypocrisy.

Rle68 wrote:either way i dont care

Obviously you care, or you wouldn't have posted this.

Rle68 wrote:its like i said a select group of a few individuals have decided they have the right and the power to make the rules change to fit them and their close friends

ill go out on a limb right now and say that the majority of the winners will be close to the organisers for this event... and you think no one will notice that fact ?

you can say all you want about how the rules need clarification.... you know what thats a load of bull. There are discrepencies that arise from time to time but the game has been running at a fair level for a number of years and it hasn't stopped yet. there has never been a world wide stoppage of play thet we needed the internet saviours to save us from a game we already are playing

Edit: Personal insults removed

--yakface

Rle68 wrote:
ill go out on a limb right now and say that the majority of the winners will be close to the organisers for this event... and you think no one will notice that fact ?

Really? Lets look at that statement for its factual basis. Lets consider only overall event winners (because quite frankly, AdeptiCon gives out awards/prizes in so many sub-categories that looking at the whole list for the past five years is more than I want to deal with). Plus, the event winners tend to get the big prizes (i.e. armies/titans/etc.).

40K National Team Tournament:
2007 - Checkmate Hobbies (Team Tournament Champions) - No members of the Council Here
2006 - So. Cal GW League (Team Tournament Champions) - No members of the Council Here - heck, the first California-based Council member joined this year
2005 - Saim Heinous (Team Tournament Champions) - One team member joined the council...after the event, starting with AdeptiCon 2006
2004 - Casus Belli (Team Tournament Champions) - Okay, two team members here was on the Council.
2003 - Team TnA (Team Tournament Champions) - AFAIK nobody on this team was a member of the Council in that year. 2 of them joined in later years.

WARHAMMER 40K CHAMPIONSHIPS CHAMPIONS

2007 - Mike Mutscheller (Best Overall)
2006 - Dennis Wendt (Best Overall)
2005 - Chris Hill (Best Overall)
2004 - Chris Hill (Best Overall)
2003 - Jeff Chua (Best Overall)
Okay, only one person on that list is involved in putting on AdeptiCon - Jeff Chua.

WARHAMMER 40K IRON MAN CHAMPIONS

2006 - Charles Nichols (Overall Ironman)
2005 - Gregory Sparks (Overall Ironman)
2004 - Chris Hill (Overall Ironman)
Greg Sparks joined the Council for AdeptiCon 2006.

WARHAMMER 40K CODICIER CHAMPIONS
2007 - Hod Sheikhnia
2006 - Steve Georges
Neither of them are or were on the Council.

WARHAMMER FANTASY TEAM TOURNAMENT CHAMPIONS
2007 - The East Lustria Company (Team Tournament Champions)
2006 - The Warbringers (Team Tournament Champions)
2005 - Skinks Without Hats (Team Tournament Champions)
2004 - Virginia Stormriders (Team Tournament Champions)
Honestly, don't know Fantasy all that well, so I don't know who was on which team.

WARHAMMER FANTASY CHAMPIONSHIPS CHAMPIONS

2007 - Jordan Braun (Best Overall)
2006 - Jeffrey Schiltgen (Best Overall)
2005 - Jeff Heck (Best Overall)
2004 - Tom McClure (Best Overall)
2003 - Chris Walker (Best Overall)

None are or have been on the Council.

WARHAMMER FANTASY ESCALATION CHAMPIONS
2007 - Bruce Chirrey (Best Overall)
2006 - John Stentz (Best Overall)
Neither serve on the Council.

WARHAMMER FANTASY IRON MAN CHAMPIONS
2006 - John Stentz (Overall Ironman)
Same John Stentz as above (he had a really good year)

WARHAMMER FANTASY LOREMASTER CHAMPIONS
2007 - Alex Gonzalez
2006 - Alex Gonzalez
Nope.

YOUNGBLOOD ROGUE TRADER CHAMPIONS
2005 - Tony Grippondo (Best Overall)
2004 - Daniel Phillips (Best Overall)

Nope.

LORD OF THE RINGS TEAM TOURNAMENT CHAMPIONS
2007 - CAGO 2 (Team Champions)
Don't think so, but since I know even less about the LOTR community than I do about Fantasy, I could be wrong. Don't recognize the faces from the Retro, though, so I feel fairly safe in saying they're not on the Council.

BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC TOURNAMENT CHAMPIONS
2007 - Shane McRoberts (Best Overall)
Nope. Dreadshane just comes to AdeptiCon to KATN.

ADEPTICUP BLOOD BOWL CHAMPIONS
2005 - Dean Peletis (Best Overall)
Nope.

So lets summarize. Out of 52 tournament winners in 5 years of AdeptiCon, 3 of them served on the AdeptiCon council in the years that they won an event.

OMG it's a conspiracy!

IntoTheRain wrote:Try finding even one site on the internet that isn't overwhelmingly in favor of what is revised in the FAQ. (hint for the terminally slow: you won't)

The list is endless, actually.

But I'm terminally slow, I guess.

Took me all of 5 minutes to check the forums of 'major' sites to find lots of people aren't happy.

I don't call that overwhelmingly in favor.

Noise to signal ratio is pretty bad in this thread, by the way. Maybe you noticed.

Dont like the FAQ? Dont go to Adepticon...quite simple really.

Like the universe of 40k itself...whatever happens, you will not be missed!

...Go to the VASTLY superior Tournements that GW themselves put on....hrumph!


This discussion is all pretty funny to me. The FAQ is the end result of several dedicated and respected individuals in our gaming midst that have simply (or not so simply, considering the rules they're trying to fix) constructed a pub that makes our game quite a bit more tournement ready. A feat that GW themselves have failed to do with any dedication. I for one thank them for their efforts to make this game a little bit more "our own" (meaning the gaming communities') and smoother in play.

I REALLY believe that the vast majority of SERIOUS tournement players probably welcome this FAQ with open arms even with any rules changes. All we want is consistancy and we can conform to rules that are in print.

The Nay-sayers are most likely not hitting multiple tournements a year nation-wide and are more for local RTT's at best, non-tournement players that simply dont want to be told that their house rules arent playable at worst.

IntoTheRain wrote:

Edit: Insults removed

--yakface

Wow...I've had entire posts removed for transgressions that pale in the face of this. Where are the mods now? What happened to forum rules? Oh...the favoritism stinks. It stinks so badly...

Kilkrazy wrote:If someone thinks the Adepticon committee made an FAQ just to get some advantages for their army, here's what to do.

1. Find out what armies the committee members play.
2. Check through the FAQ and find the number of rulings that benefit and hurt those armies.
3. Find the number of rulings that benefit and hurt other armies.
4. Find the total number of rulings that affect the game generally, not one particular army.
5. Count the total number of different armies possible to take to the event.
6. Do statistical analysis of your data to show that rulings pro committee armies outweigh the rulings pro other armies and the general rulings by a significant degree of correlation.

If you do all that people will listen to you, otherwise they will just take it as bleating.

Um...couldn't you do the same thing and shut up all the counter-argument? But I don't see you embarking on a ten-hour plus exhaustive analysis. What a ridiculous proposition. You deserve no place in this discussion, and you have insulted anyone who has even tried to give feedback. "Peer-reviewed?" Yeah, right.

I could care less if the judges rigged this thing. That's their issue. But the fact that they have created an entirely new game cannot be refuted. This is not 40k I want to play by. Some of these rulings smack of ignorance and/or shortsightedness, and those rulings have been called out by those interested enough to try and give constructive feedback.

Deadshane1 wrote:Dont like the FAQ? Dont go to Adepticon...quite simple really.

This discussion is all pretty funny to me. The FAQ is the end result of several dedicated and respected individuals in our gaming midst that have simply (or not so simply, considering the rules they're trying to fix) constructed a pub that makes our game quite a bit more tournement ready. A feat that GW themselves have failed to do with any dedication. I for one thank them for their efforts to make this game a little bit more "our own" (meaning the gaming communities') and smoother in play.

I REALLY believe that the vast majority of SERIOUS tournement players probably welcome this FAQ with open arms even with any rules changes. All we want is consistancy and we can conform to rules that are in print.

Perhaps the reason you're getting so much negative feedback is because the Adepticon "counsel" has made it quite clear that they think this FAQ is adequate to be used at all public events. I for one, and many others, see this as an infringement on their privacy as well as a threat to how they like to play the game. Making a FAQ for adepticon is one thing. Trying to promote it to universal use is something entirely different.

And I'm quite sure that, while most tournament players are welcoming the possibility of no rules disputes (which is really quite laughable, this document comes nowhere near perfect clarity), I suspect there are a fair few regular competitive tournament goers who aren't remotely pleased with this document. Some of them have posted here, some of them elsewhere.

A very intelligent professor of mine once said "removing ambiguity is impossible. Furthermore, you begin to work against yourself the harder you try."

"2004 - Casus Belli (Team Tournament Champions) - Okay, two team members here was on the Council"

Actually, I really didn't get heavily involved with AdeptiCon till the following year. I did some marketing and sponsorship calls for Jeff and Matt that year. The rest of Casus Belli that year Chris, Dave and Scott none involved with the Council.

ColonelEllios wrote:
A very intelligent professor of mine once said "removing ambiguity is impossible. Furthermore, you begin to work against yourself the harder you try."

I really fail to see what the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle has to do with this discussion.

ColonelEllios wrote:This is not 40k I want to play by. Some of these rulings smack of ignorance and/or shortsightedness, and those rulings have been called out by those interested enough to try and give constructive feedback.

And some of the feedback easily smacks of ignorance and shortsighteedness. There are several naysayers that I completely disagree with on some of their comments and wonder what they are thinking. However, there are comments that I believe are warranted. That is the problem. We are all not going to get to have an absolute perfect ruling on every issue that will allow everyone to play 40K the way we want to play. This FAQ can bring more consistency to rules questions in the tournament environment though, which is the ultimate objective.

ColonelEllios wrote:Perhaps the reason you're getting so much negative feedback is because the Adepticon "counsel" has made it quite clear that they think this FAQ is adequate to be used at all public events. I for one, and many others, see this as an infringement on their privacy as well as a threat to how they like to play the game. Making a FAQ for adepticon is one thing. Trying to promote it to universal use is something entirely different.

Infringement on privacy? Play the game the way you want. However, whether it is this document or another, it would ultimately benefit tournament environments to have everyone on the same page as far as the majority of rules questions are concerned.

ColonelEllios wrote:And I'm quite sure that, while most tournament players are welcoming the possibility of no rules disputes (which is really quite laughable, this document comes nowhere near perfect clarity), I suspect there are a fair few regular competitive tournament goers who aren't remotely pleased with this document. Some of them have posted here, some of them elsewhere.

Again - not everyone is going to be happy. You name it - I've played against "former playtesters", Kommandos and other supposed rules experts. Time and time again, I have found that they don't even know the rules in the 40K rule book let alone how to address grey area issues. Just off of this example, how are you going to make everyone happy when even "rules experts" can't get it right? The answer is you are not. So instead - you take their feedback and work with what is appropriate and what is not.

ColonelEllios wrote:A very intelligent professor of mine once said "removing ambiguity is impossible. Furthermore, you begin to work against yourself the harder you try."

Though minimizing abiguity is not impossible. The exact statement above is for the lazy minded and lazy in general if you do not think this type of document is necessary in this case. Bringing order to a system is what we (people) do. You can reach a certain point (ie: the cost of quality) where it is no longer reasonably feasible. However, the 40K ruleset has not reached that point. It is not acceptable to have the system flaws that the current rules set has. All flaws may not be removed with this FAQ, but this document goes a long way to removing the majority of them.

if they want to run their own event then thats one thing, but they petitioned to be a part of GAMES WORKSHOPS TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT.

Misinformed. They asked us. Like they did the year before. We did not petition to be apart of anything.

that means you dont go making up rules because you dont like them

Acutally .. Hold on .. Tourney Circuit .. Necro and AdeptiCon allow Forgeworld. Most the WFB events allow "shock" non-GW models still from being apart of the IndyGt .. check out the QCR, Hillbilly etc.. Other events use the Direwolf FAQ. Some have complex comp systems that well .. definitely "change the game". The list goes on and on. Go to any of the other events .. you'll find they "made" up stuff. Big deal .. if they all ran the same sort of an event there would not be something for everyone.

you want to be a part of the circuit you follow the rules by the people that make the game

Well as I have pointed out AdeptiCon was apart of the Circuit last year. Last year we had a similar FAQ. The fact we are back .. I assume means they appreciate what we bring to the table.

its like i said a select group of a few individuals have decided they have the right and the power to make the rules change to fit them and their close friends ill go out on a limb right now and say that the majority of the winners will be close to the organisers for this event... and you think no one will notice that fact ?

Ok .. see I make damn good money for the work I do but I spend countless hours of my free time running this event with others.... Why .. so that other people can come and have a good time. The fact is the majority of the core group of AdeptiCon .. invest a ton of hours, work all weekend at a break neck speed, take on a good amount of personal risk, hardly get to spend a few moments with the special guests we bring in or friends for that matter... All the while several hundred other people get to have a good time and enjoy the hobby. Plus .. an added bonus is we get to in the months leading up to the event .. take these sort of personal insults from little folks that sit behind the veil of the "internet" and want to complain about everything without ever stepping up to the plate and doing something themselves. Don't like the FAQ fine. It serves our purpose. I've gone over why it is named what it is. Out of respect for the person that did the majority of the work. It's out there for anyone else to adopt. Period.

I don't need awards, I don't need to list my tourney record in my sig, I don't need to win any more games, I don't need any more prizes .. as I can certainly afford whatever I so desire.

But one thing I will not stand for .. is someone not paying me and the hard working folks that work on AdeptiCon some respect. Disagree all you like. Respect we have earned.

What was the last big tourney event you attended?

Here is a hint .. before you go talking about something you have no idea about .. you might want to ask first.

On a side note .. I pm'd you my contact number yesterday. In hopes that before you stick your foot in your mouth yet again .. you can do just that .. call the source and I will try to set you straight.

I'll take my warning now .. Mods.

ColonelEllios wrote:
Wow...I've had entire posts removed for transgressions that pale in the face of this. Where are the mods now? What happened to forum rules? Oh...the favoritism stinks. It stinks so badly...

No one used the 'user post alert' button and I haven't been on tonight until now to see the ridiculous turn this thread has taken yet again.


. . .Sigh. . .