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labmouse42 wrote:
Isn't the concept of 'good return for points value' a holdover from 4th ed?

It's still just as valid today. If units have differing "usability" and they all cost different amounts of points...the concept will be with us

If your rubber-band swooping hawks come down on turn 6 and contest/capture 3 objectives winning the game for eldar, did they not earn their points right there?

Perhaps they did, and a single Arcoflagellent may take out an entire 10 man unit of Thunderhammer Terminators...getting WELL over its points back. However, like the Swooping Hawk instance...I wouldnt count on something like that to happen. There are other units in the Codex that have a BETTER CHANCE of getting their points back over the course of a battle.

I'm with labmouse in that I think "getting points back" has evolved, since most games don't depend on victory points anymore.

For example, a squadron of hydras at 225 points that kills a rhino (35 points) has already gotten its points back in terms of KPs in an annihilation scenario. But in an objective-grabbing scenario, how do you know when it's gotten its points back? Maybe killing that rhino prevented the opponent from claiming an objective because the riders had to footslog it after that? But the hydra squadron would be unlikely to be able to kill, for example, a whole unit of space marines walking across the board in 6 turns, so does that mean it can't make its points back?

It seems to me that's a separate discussion, though, about units that do one thing very well and units that do many things (or two things) and the metagame and the whole question of "getting points back" is more situational now.

i'm gonna point out a unit in 40k that i've never seen anyone but myself use...

vespids.

There ya go. How can these overpriced models ever be used best?

I've played a full unit of them vs noobs... but man they are a handicap!

There are some units in the game that inherently are not good in a competitive enviroment.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm with labmouse in that I think "getting points back" has evolved, since most games don't depend on victory points anymore.

For example, a squadron of hydras at 225 points that kills a rhino (35 points) has already gotten its points back in terms of KPs in an annihilation scenario. But in an objective-grabbing scenario, how do you know when it's gotten its points back? Maybe killing that rhino prevented the opponent from claiming an objective because the riders had to footslog it after that? But the hydra squadron would be unlikely to be able to kill, for example, a whole unit of space marines walking across the board in 6 turns, so does that mean it can't make its points back?

It seems to me that's a separate discussion, though, about units that do one thing very well and units that do many things (or two things) and the metagame and the whole question of "getting points back" is more situational now.

Nothing has evolved, you're looking too deep into something that is terribly simple.

Objectives and kill points aside. If you spend X amount of points on a unit who's purpose is to destroy elements of the enemy army, and it destroys LESS than X points of the enemy army, it failed to get it's points back.

It failed to counter an equal amount of enemy troops.


If a single marine, say a naked techmarine, kills 29 'ard boyz out of a mob of 30 in a kill point mission before the Nob finally crushes him with a claw, would you say he failed to get his "points back" since he produced a kill point for the enemy while getting none for the marine army?

Sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Victory Points don't matter this is why I favor either Small Elite Units such as Termicides or Large Units.

They're all worth a equal value in Killpoints.

It's another reason on why obliterators are so effective.

It's 3 models yes ,but it is only worth 1 KP and it usually can get its 1 KP by definitely destroying a vehicle or squad.


You want to make your army as redundant as possible this may be inclusion of spamming specific units such as Attack Bikes or by Spamming multiple Melta weapons or Vehicles.


All of this leads to a army that ultimately does not lose a key intergal part when a unit dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's look at Vespid Stingwings

A ten man model Squad w/ Strain Leader is 166 points.

There is no other match for them in the army ; they don't have antitank , they are not good in assault ; they have BS and WS 3.

They don't gel with anything else in the army so its difficult to not only have them be a back up to another unit but also they take up a very valuable FOC slot in Fast Attack that can go to a Marker Light or a more point Efficient Gun Drone or Pirahna squad.


Spamming 3 Squads of 10 Vespids may get you somewhere but it wont be far with a 5+ save.

You need to get drunk again. You post better with inequibrated.

G

I woke up on the floor this morning. So no.

Elessar wrote:
@Focusedfire:

I hope those Land Speeders have Assault Cannon???

Yeah, it was late. They are assault cannons. Thanks for pointing that out. Will correct now

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's the Best of SM list...

* snickers *

G

Good one, but don't start with me. In the hands of a competent general this list can be a problem for any build.

Elessar wrote:
lol.

I didn't think that much of it either.

Explain, instead of attempting to sound superior. I posted one of the winning lists in my area in response to general retreats request of discussing the tactics of why and when to spam or be redundant. It is a list that is very strong against the Tau and yet I don't lose to it. So, it leaves me asking, "What is the benefit of Spamming?". I believe that it is the in-game decisions of the player that have the largest impact upon the battle(Note- I said largest, not denying build effect ).

Any melta heavy army will have a field day with that 'best of' list. The scoring units are simply atrocious.

G

You say this, but how. You first have to get to the rhinos and there is a screen of fast movers that will take out your melta units before they get into range.

Saying something will simply do such and actually doing such are two different things.

You shouldn't under estimate 36 range24" BS4 S6 AP 4 Rending shots per turn plus with the option of 9 BS4 Multi melta shots a turn. This on a fast vehicle that can deep strike.

This is a case where the player makes the difference. I've watched too many people say, "Easy just do this.", against this player and then they end up eating crow.

Deadshane1 wrote:Objectives and kill points aside. If you spend X amount of points on a unit who's purpose is to destroy elements of the enemy army, and it destroys LESS than X points of the enemy army, it failed to get it's points back.

It failed to counter an equal amount of enemy troops.

That's a naive and narrow view of the effectiveness of a unit. It's understandable, because it's easily measured, but you're ignoring the very real tactical advantages of certain units beyond what they kill. A DAVU Falcon might not kill a single unit/model in an entire game, and yet be the factor that gives an Eldar player the win... does that mean it was a waste of points because it didn't "get them back"? What about a squad of Dark Reapers drawing a line on the board past which a marine player is reluctant to move his troops (ignoring, for now, certain other issues with Reapers)? WHat about that same reaper squad putting 3 wounds apiece on two different 'Fexes that are later killed by other squads? What about that waveserpent full of Scorpions that full-out's all over the place, tank-shocking and just staying alive long enough to remove a marine squad (or other scoring unit) from an objective at the end of the game. None of these units or situations are likely to "make their points back", but all are extremely valid uses of points, and can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Lets please not turn this into another of those assinine and useless tactics articles...

"Yea but if you do that, all I have to do is THIS and I win!"-Player 1

"No, because I'm going to flank you with this unit and then you'll lose."-Player 2

"When are these idiots going to start discussing real tactics instead of trying to 1up each other?"-Player 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ravariel96 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Objectives and kill points aside. If you spend X amount of points on a unit who's purpose is to destroy elements of the enemy army, and it destroys LESS than X points of the enemy army, it failed to get it's points back.

It failed to counter an equal amount of enemy troops.

That's a naive and narrow view of the effectiveness of a unit. It's understandable, because it's easily measured, but you're ignoring the very real tactical advantages of certain units beyond what they kill. A DAVU Falcon might not kill a single unit/model in an entire game, and yet be the factor that gives an Eldar player the win... does that mean it was a waste of points because it didn't "get them back"? What about a squad of Dark Reapers drawing a line on the board past which a marine player is reluctant to move his troops (ignoring, for now, certain other issues with Reapers)? WHat about that same reaper squad putting 3 wounds apiece on two different 'Fexes that are later killed by other squads? What about that waveserpent full of Scorpions that full-out's all over the place, tank-shocking and just staying alive long enough to remove a marine squad (or other scoring unit) from an objective at the end of the game. None of these units or situations are likely to "make their points back", but all are extremely valid uses of points, and can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Please reread.

Yes I agree it's a waste of time to play point/counterpoint in regards to the 'best of SM' army list. I've beaten that list everytime I played against it. It has no close combat element whatsoever. It gets to shoot a couple of turns max then is destroyed in close combat. Even a drop pod army can beat it.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote: I've beaten that list everytime I played against it. It has no close combat element whatsoever. It gets to shoot a couple of turns max then is destroyed in close combat. Even a drop pod army can beat it.

G

Then maybe it is time to stop playing the 13 year olds and to move up to more experienced players. Baaazzziiinng. Just joking

Seriously, Wasn't trying to be drawn int GBF's point counter point. Was offering this as a common list that can be competitive as an example for the subjects:

1) Is this is a spam list?

2)Which units are the best time to spam? If so, what do you look for in other units to synergize with the spammed unit?

3)Does spamming a unit have a multiplier effect as was earlier suggested?

4)When or even if it is ever a good time to spam units?


This list has strengths and weaknesses that are easy to see for the purposes of this discussion. It wasn't posted to impress but rather to open up the discussion. Not about do this and win but about when to spam and whether doing so is good or bad from a tactical standpoint. The attempt to casually dismiss the list by "not being impressed", ignores this basic point and even comes across as an attempt to dodge the subject "What if any benefit is there to spamming?". Is the game about you beating the other list or about beating your opponent?

Deadshane1 wrote:Please reread.

Fair point, but I still think it's a shortsighted way of looking at it. Sometimes an army just doesn't have an option that is point-for-point equal to what you need it to kill. Also, if you choose a unit for the sole purpose of removing enemy models, then you're not taking advantage of the flexibility, and redundancy of a good unit, which is what this thread is all about. Sure, I could take a squad of banshees in a serpent and maybe kill their points in opposing guys, but if they die, too, then what advantage have I gained? You need to gain ground, not just stay even, and that falls squarely in the area of those factors that you can't compute. Sometimes the removal of a squad is more important than the points would indicate... and often you need to dedicate more points to the removal of said squad than that squad is worth. This does not make that function inefficient or somehow tactically poor planning. What is poor planning is taking a squad for the sole purpose of removing enemy models, because there is likely something else you can take that will do just that, but also do other things of import.

Okay let's break down the Best of SM list so I can point I why I think it's seriously fubared:


SM Captain
Chapter Master

I don't see any wargear so I'll assume these two HQ choices are fielded completely naked. One can drop ordnance one turn. Neither really have much to offer in close combat since they have no real weapons. Why two? You need one HQ but two? It's a waste of points. I would drop one and use some of the points to buff up the other. Why not take Khan so your troops can outflank? That would add some value to your troops. Best overall at the Big Waaagh did so experience tells me it can work.

5 man tac squad w rhino
5 man tac squad w rhino
5 man tac squad w rhino

These units are basically place holders. At least give the sergeants a combi melta. It's not that hard to kill the rhinos and five Marines per squad are very easy to kill in close combat. Again I think these units are a waste of points. They exist solely to take objectives but can't hold them once they get there. They are also easy KPs. I assume one would run with the chapter master and another with the captain. Again because the HQ have no power weapons they will bounce in close combat and all it takes is a power fist to get rid of them quickly.

3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi
3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi
3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi

These three units are the main strength of the army but they have tin foil for armor and if one gets immoblized you'll have to dump it to maintain mobility for the other two (per unit). Why three units? I think 2x2 is all you need. Get back some points to put in units sorely lacking from this list.

Predator w/Sponson lascannon
Predator w/Sponson lascannon

I'm not knocking these two units, it's the combination of them with the army that bothers me.

It's a spam list without any value added redundancy. The spedders have an effective range of 36" and are good at both dropping armor and shooting troops. The predators are good for shooting at armor and have some resiliency. I can see the value of taking two since mech Is popular. The troops and HQ are what really ding this list in a big way plus the number of speeders should be cut back to make room for other much needed units, such as terminators.

G

Are you talking about Steleks best of List?

Cause that isnt it.

Never said it was but certainly they have their share of commonality. This list has potential but needs a complete rehaul.

G

Mechanized armies are pretty much a different type of spam.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Okay let's break down the Best of SM list so I can point I why I think it's seriously fubared:


SM Captain
Chapter Master

I don't see any wargear so I'll assume these two HQ choices are fielded completely naked. One can drop ordnance one turn. Neither really have much to offer in close combat since they have no real weapons. Why two? You need one HQ but two? It's a waste of points. I would drop one and use some of the points to buff up the other. Why not take Khan so your troops can outflank? That would add some value to your troops. Best overall at the Big Waaagh did so experience tells me it can work.

Not a fan of the Khan, so much, but agreed in general - one HQ is more than enough here, cheap as possible, without sacrificing utility. Vulkan is, obviously, my favourite.

5 man tac squad w rhino
5 man tac squad w rhino
5 man tac squad w rhino

These units are basically place holders. At least give the sergeants a combi melta. It's not that hard to kill the rhinos and five Marines per squad are very easy to kill in close combat. Again I think these units are a waste of points. They exist solely to take objectives but can't hold them once they get there. They are also easy KPs. I assume one would run with the chapter master and another with the captain. Again because the HQ have no power weapons they will bounce in close combat and all it takes is a power fist to get rid of them quickly.

The main weak point of the list. Again, GBF is pretty much spot on here - the units are literally just moving Obj grabbers, not holders. If you can realistically be killed by a non-Bladestorming Dire Avenger Squad in one round, and cost over 70 points, you're not worth taking. 2x 10-man squads would probably be better than this horribleness, although I would never recommend running min Troops above 1500.

3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi
3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi
3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi

These three units are the main strength of the army but they have tin foil for armor and if one gets immoblized you'll have to dump it to maintain mobility for the other two (per unit). Why three units? I think 2x2 is all you need. Get back some points to put in units sorely lacking from this list.

Shocked you didn't point out how the Assault Cannon is crap, this list has no Cover Denial, get some in. A HF is far superior a-i fire than an AC, especially point for point (although what are you talking about, dumping it to retain mobility?!? It's in a Squadron, dumping it isn't an option, because it's now a Wreck.) Heavy Flamers ofc would synergise with Vulkan, if using him. 6 Speeders is sufficient here, 9 is overkill.

Predator w/Sponson lascannon
Predator w/Sponson lascannon

I'm not knocking these two units, it's the combination of them with the army that bothers me.

It's a spam list without any value added redundancy. The spedders have an effective range of 36" and are good at both dropping armor and shooting troops. The predators are good for shooting at armor and have some resiliency. I can see the value of taking two since mech Is popular. The troops and HQ are what really ding this list in a big way plus the number of speeders should be cut back to make room for other much needed units, such as terminators.

G

I literally see NO reason for these Predators. You have, at present, 9 MMs in the list. WTF are the gakky-ass Lascannons there to kill? Anything that's a problem for the Melta, isn't going to be scared of a freaking Las. Better to take DakkaPreds for additional ranged anti-infantry (saving a gakload of points) or DakkaDreads if not using Vulkan in particular. (Thinking about it, this list is surely 1500, so Vulkan probably not viable here.) Also, Tri-Las Preds are HORRIBLY inefficient for their points.

As a matter of fact, I recently posted a 1700 point Marine list on Mind War FTW for a fellow Dakkaite, which contained this:

Me, on Mind War FTW wrote:
"Master of the Forge:
Conversion Beamer - 120

2x Dreadnought:
[COUNT AS HEAVY SUPPORT] Multi-Melta, Stormbolter, DCCW. - (2x105) 210

3x Dreadnought:
2xTwin-Linked Autocannons. - (3x125) 375

2x Tactical Squad:
Flamer, Multi-Melta, Rhino. - (2x205) 410

5 Scouts
Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher, Sgt. Telion. - 150

2x Land Speeder:
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta. - 140

2x Land Speeder:
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta. - 140

3x Land Speeder:
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta. - 210

[At this point, 180 points remain. So near, and yet so far from including Vulkan. It’d be entirely feasible, however, to drop a lone weapon for a Speeder to generate the required points. Instead, I’ve plumped for the following…]

Dreadnought:
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour. - 130

+Extra Armour on MM Dreads - 30

+ Heavy Flamers on MM Dreads - 20

TOTAL: 1700."

LINK TO SAID POST

In order to make a 1500 list from that, lose the last 180 points, lose a Speeder, and take filler Scouts to make up missing points. Far more balanced.

I meant that the immobilized speeder would have to be left behind as a wreck... I probably should have been clear.

G

It was very ambiguous. Someone unfamiliar with 5th, or just the squadron rules, could have been mightily confuddled.

Now how much does that list change if it is being run by BT with PoMS on everything?

My list?

I'm afraid I'm not au fait enough with BTs to (fairly) comment as to points effectiveness of the list then.

That said, Predators are significantly awesomer with PotMS.

Surely 'your' list isn't BTs, because they don't get Tacticals (?) or those Characters...

Not much honestly. The scoring units still are mightily fubared. I see no major improvements to be completely honest. There's no synergy between units either that I can see smurfy.

G

I'm making an attempt to show what works for one army may not work for another and vise versa.

I've seen this list run as SM, BT, and DA. The strongest version was the BT, IMO. The PoMS does help but not as much as you think. BT PoMS is still BS2. Works well with the predator and to some extent the Speeders. Replace the HQs with emperors champ and a Marshal and you have a loose version of the BT list

The strong points of such a list is that it remains tactically flexible, is very fast, presents so many vehicle units that it is hard to muster the firepower to counter them, 14-ish vehicles can be a lot to try to stop.Especially when the front row pops smoke. You end up needing the equivolent firepower to take out 28 vehicles with an experience player running this list.

Weak points are the minimized troops, lack of HtH depth, light armor, and KP issues. You don't need to take out all of the vehicles, just the transports(If you can get LoS to them). Once you you crack the transports it is a matter of mopping up(Once again depending on LoS).


Now the troops can be both a strong and weak point. They have no real strength(Easily destrotyed in assault) but can be hard to root out from the Rhino wreckage(Small squads are easier to hide) in shooting.

You can apply basic principles of mechanized to multiple army lists.

A good example of this is

Tau Firewarriors x6 w/ Devilfish w/ stuff

or

Eldar Guardians x 10 or Dire Avenger x 5 w/ Wave Serpent

or

Space Marine Tactical x 5 w/ Razorback


etc..


It all has the same basic principle you are purchasing a Vehicle that is scoring and taking a smaller unit to conserve points.

Granted of course some armies are much better than others at this minimizing of Troops and taking Transports that have a offensive ability.

Hollismason wrote:You can apply basic principles of mechanized to multiple army lists.

Apply this to 'crons and 'nids

I dare you.

I never said which army lists.