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Everything has a counter but you play the odds really. Do you expect to see that anti you army and do you have a counter to it.

Demogerg wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Spam is for the weak of brain.

G

You just called them stupid. There is a subtle difference.

I am never subtle. You say you know me. You should know that.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:There is nothing wrong at all with spam armies and the good thing is it helps average players be more competitive.

G

plus

Green Blow Fly wrote:Spam is for the weak of brain.

G

equals

I said I don't play spam bird brain. I have friends that do. Oh well I am past the point of serious contention, just stating what seems obvious to me.

G

I take pride in my apparently unique ability to switch on an off my ability to be competitive, 95% of my games are friendly and I have a fluffy list with a lot of effort put into the backstory and I also have, for that other 10%, a competitive list, with almost the exact same models, but angry-er. I am able to both say "yea, its alright, you can finish your movement phase, that happens to me all the time" and "It's ON!" I really dislike pepole who wish nothing but to crush and grind you beneath his/her bootheel. It usually takes me about one turn of ruleslayering and one glance at their list to find these pepole and to turn around and claw my way back to a comeback, but I still don't like the guy. I mean, I enjoy the thrill of victory as much as the next guy, but really, c'mon man, try to have some fun every once in a while.

I am having fun.

G

I think we have run this horse into the ground ; dug it up ground it up then made a paper mache of that horse and run it into the ground.

Competitive wise you should spam and make a list that is redundant if you either count spamming a specific weapon such as assault cannon or spam a specific unit type such as Obliterators.

The key is to really take a army that has multiples of a unit that can serve as a Jack of all trades multi tool to a degree or take multiples of a specialist group will make your list stronger.

Hollismason wrote:I think we have run this horse into the ground ; dug it up ground it up then made a paper mache of that horse and run it into the ground.

Competitive wise you should spam and make a list that is redundant if you either count spamming a specific weapon such as assault cannon or spam a specific unit type such as Obliterators.

The key is to really take a army that has multiples of a unit that can serve as a Jack of all trades multi tool to a degree or take multiples of a specialist group will make your list stronger.

Or you could sometimes run things people hate in multiples to draw fire from the other stuff hehe... it works for me in fun lists!

It has definitely been run into the ground.

G

I think that redundant lists are better than just take-all-comers lists, but I think there is a difference between redundancy and spam, the former being insurance, the second being a high-risk high-reward, if unimaginative, strategy.

For example:
2 land raiders full of assault termies - redundancy.
3 land raiders full of assault termies and 2 land raiders full of terminator HQ + honor guard - spam. (also extremely expensive)

2 squads of oblits - redundancy.
3 squads of oblits - spam

2 warbosses and 20 nobs in 2 battlewagons - redundancy
2 warbosses, 20 troops nobs, 10 elite nobs, 5 battlewagons - spam.

etc. etc. etc.

I think redundancy is a good tactic, as it doubles the chance of your good units doing their job. I think spam lists are the mark of someone who just sees something that does well in most games and decides to make a list entirely out of that. I'm not going to call them stupid, because they're not, I am going to call them unimaginite, because they are.

Note: This is not to say 5 land raider, or nob-heavy lists are bad. This is to say 5 LRCs and Lists with nothing but nobs and battlewagons are bad.

Now I finally understand.

G

And knowing is half the battle GI JOE.

Anyway can we actually talk about redundancy and spam?

Green Blow Fly you continually claim your list is not spam what list do you run?

Also, I think we should critique units in Army List forum.

I am also drunk.

Here is my current 1850 BA list:

Dante
9x VAS/3x power fist, 2x meltagun

Corbulo
5x DC
LRC

2x 10x tactical Marine/power fist, lascannon & meltagun - rhino
10x assault Marine/power fist - rhino

I run a squad of Grey Knights as an allied troop choice for my 2500 point list and as soon as they are painted I intend to run them in place of one tactical squad. It's a great way to get a cheap psychic hood into the army. I will probably have to make a few other tweaks to the 1850 point list so that they'll have a transport. They also have a psycannon and an incinerator as well. I think they are a solid troop choice (allied) for any SM army once you have decided what you want to run for your two mandatory troops.

G

...spamming Power fists?

Excuse me, fist redundancy.

3 Power fists is hardly spam. That's like claiming he's spamming space marines, or bolt weapons. I can see it now:

"You have HOW MANY bolters!?"
"Umm, about 40, and 10 Bolt pistols..."
"SPAMMER! WAAC! AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME!"
"wtf...?"

I always field as many power fists as possible. I don't have access to combat tactics... Yet.

g

Would you say though that your list is redundant IE it has units that accomplish the same goal.


Also something that is not discussed and although not a indication of spam to a degrree or redundancy but I view it in the Killpoint enviroment of tournaments that heavy hitting units that are difficult to get rid of are better than multiple units.

Then again I am drunk.

I suupose if you play an army where each is taken from a different codex then possibly that would not count as spam? It's actually possible to do for the most part but then again it looks like your definition of spam covers just about everything under the sun.

G

sniperjolly wrote:I take pride in my apparently unique ability to switch on an off my ability to be competitive, 95% of my games are friendly and I have a fluffy list with a lot of effort put into the backstory and I also have, for that other 10%, a competitive list, with almost the exact same models, but angry-er. I am able to both say "yea, its alright, you can finish your movement phase, that happens to me all the time" and "It's ON!" I really dislike pepole who wish nothing but to crush and grind you beneath his/her bootheel. It usually takes me about one turn of ruleslayering and one glance at their list to find these pepole and to turn around and claw my way back to a comeback, but I still don't like the guy. I mean, I enjoy the thrill of victory as much as the next guy, but really, c'mon man, try to have some fun every once in a while.

IU may be drunk, but I at least can add 95% and 10%, and I don't get 100%.

All this discussion over the right and wrong of spamming, and no Tactica discussion over which units are good to spam for which army, when, and how much?

Have you all forgotten the point here?

Should, should not, like, or like as not matters not a whit here. I want to hear some discussion about HOW.

How many meltaguns is enough these days?

When is armor saturation considered enough to overwhelm the typical enemy's anti-vehicular output?

These are just my two little questions of how to spam, not whether to spam. Whether to spam is a question to be settled amongst people who will actually play each other, look each other in the eye, and (hopefully) remain on civil terms afterwards. Obviously, in a tournament setting, the last is immaterial.

Let's discuss the mechanics of spam and redundancy in this here Tactica thread.

We've already concluded that it's usefulness is undeniable, and that it can be accomplished in many ways.

Can anyone answer my two questions above, or present other questions on the intracacies of this list building tactic, should a player choose to employ it?

(@ previous : Yes, sorry for the name confusion there. I get Musashi and Ueushiba mixed up too often, and I apologize. The comments about the elements were taken from Miyamoto Musashi, the author of the Go Rin No Sho, and the fighting style analogy (hard vs soft) from Morhei Ueushiba, the creator of Aikido. My apologies again if the spelling is incorrect. My description of -Do and -Jutsu are correct as they were taught to me by my sensei. He obviously learned them in correlation to Aikido in the first place, and I may have picked them up with a slant. The core principles of all my above points remain the same however.)

^What? No Munenori fans here?



Here is a list that I fight against constantly. It is a Sm build that can sit back and out shoot my Tau if I let it(Which I don't)


SM Captain

Sm Chapter Master

5 man tac squad w rhino

5 man tac squad w rhino

5 man tac squad w rhino

3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi

3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi

3 Land Speeders with assault/Multi

Predator w/Sponson lascannon

Predator w/Sponson lascannon


So, what kind of list is this? Redundant or spam?


Edit to correct error on land speeders, it was late

Well this may have been posted as all i read was pages 1 and 7/ But what about things like Nidzilla 6 fex's 2 tyrants i know my friends call it power lists.
But its what works for Nids I mean warrior cost too much and they only have 4+ saves with extended Carapace, Ravenors like glass, gar's cost to much hormagaunts cost to much. Lictors ok but cost too much again Zoans and biovores don;t do enough to warrent repacing a carnifex. I don't make my list to try to table every person, however of course i don't want to lose.

Elessar wrote:

Kyley wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
But I also agree that it gets kind of depressing when a new Eldar player posts a mech Eldar list on the army list forum and all us Dakka vets come around and say, "You really should have a farseer and an autarch, and then 2 or 3 DAs in serpents, and 2 FDs in serpents and then 3 fire prisms." As if there's only one viable list for Eldar. We could save a lot of time by just sending every newbie on the army list forum around to Steleks blog.

I agree, What I really want to see is people saying "pick the models you like" and then rather than telling people not to use something, just tell them how best to use it, even if it has been nerfed.

But there are always units that CANNOT be used efficiently, however good the player. GW does this on purpose to sell them in increased quantities next Edition/Codex...maybe if GW weren't constantly trying to be a business this fantasy could come true - until they decide not to bother updating rules for longer, and makes all units playable, then this can't happen.

There is ALWAYS a best way to use a unit, even if it's not great compared to other uber-units, It'd just be great to get everyone into the mindset of general over list. If they like a unit, that should be the important thing, not how effective it is, if you're gonna give advice don't be a git and say, no you can't use this, just tell them how best to use them, even if it's not terribly effective, just to give them a chance, because otherwise two things are going to happen;

1)we have a generation of noobs who are running around using repentias to soak up bullets and are going to get demolished, demoralised and disallusioned.
2)we have a generation of noobs who are running the exact same list, it's bad enough as it is, everyone's marines and nidzilla, without every noob on the site being told to do the exact same thing.

Just, if you're going to give advise don't let it be "scrap you army and buy this list that everyone has" encourage people to use units because they love them, and to discover innovative ways to use them.

-Kyley

P.S. I really resent the subject of this thread, the idea that because a person does not run a redundant spam list they are impotent and that everyone should run the most powerful list sickens me, and the fact that you want to ENCOURAGE people to run these list because otherwise they cannot play 40k properly is fething I hope I never meet you in person, you sound like the worst kind of gamer I can imagine, if I had thep power I would ban you in an instant, luckily for you I haven't got such power so, just sort your fething priorities out.
And on an unrelated grammar note, you "will cure your impotence IN 40k" not "AT 40k", feth-wit

ArbitorIan wrote:

OddJob. wrote:What makes you a great general is playing against other top generals week in and week out. For a long time I was king of the hill locally, but I have improved my game immesurably by playing on the top tables at GT time. I'd go as far as to say that if you aren't playing against the big boys in the tournaments then you aren't a top player.

So you'd go as far as to say that if you don't like to compete in tournaments, you can't be a good general? Or that there's just no way to prove it?

If you compete in tournaments you will become a better general. The person with the greatest potential in the world may not like tournaments and as such will never realise their potential. Competition makes you stronger!

As an asside, ones understanding of a 'good general' is relative to other generals you know. Go to big events. Meet more players and step into a larger world.

Mechanized units / army are just another type of spam / redundancy it's what makes them so much more powerful than other armies as you hope to be able to have to much mechanized so that it overwhelms your opponent.


@ Focused fire : Thats just a standard Space Marine Mechanized list. This is why I "spam" XV88s as cheap as possible with Missile pods to deal with light armour.


@ Kyley : Don't get your panties in a bunch buddie; no one is encouraging anyone to play the most powerful list in friendly games. We are all talking about in a competitive tournament enviroment.

Also, this thread has cured at least 3 members of impotence.


First to starting a actual discussion : When creating a army you need to select units according to what your goal is there are multiple types of units and or strategies with armies.

Currently the strongest builds incorporate a lot of armour ; troop transports ; tanks etc.. You need to look at the list and say how fast is this unit can it do with a transport.


@ How much melta is enough melta?
That's a hard question generally to much is going to leave you gimped to deal with large numbers ; I generally take enough to get at least 4 shots a turn on 4 vehicles. For instance 2 2x LS w/ Multimeltas or 2 x2 Multimelta Attack Bikes.

Generally you want enough to deal with at least 4 heavy armour vehicles a turn and enough Light Armour fire power to deal with that.

Kyley, you need to take a chill pill. Try not to overdose on them. Or choke.

We're talking about competitive play, if you don't like everyone having a chance to win then you're the worst kind of player I can imagine, a WAAC jerk, who is more interested in stomping face than having a challenge. Maybe you've noticed, the whole point of giving advice is to make people better - and there ARE best units and lists, it doesn't fething matter if you like it or not, no-one forces you to play Tournaments, or the game at all.

I know a guy who only plays 2nd Edition, because he hasn't liked anything since - so it's entirely possible to do whatever the hell you want, and STFU when we're trying to discuss list-building here.

I don't know what it's like at your local store, obviously, but if everyone plays NidZilla, then you need to buck up your ideas and get into 5th Edition - NidZilla is a crap army list.

We ALREADY have a generation of Noobs running around using things like Repentias - which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ADVOCATE! Repentias are crap, we're trying to stop people playing crap, and quitting the game because they get tabled every week. That's not fun for them, and it shouldn't be for anyone else either.

If you're so set upon there being a best way to use a unit, please, prove your point by telling me the best way to use Swooping Hawks. Seriously, let's hear it.


@Focusedfire:

I hope those Land Speeders have Assault Cannon???

I am pretty sure they are.

It's the Best of SM list...

* snickers *

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's the Best of SM list...

* snickers *

G

lol.

I didn't think that much of it either.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Terrible units are terrible units regardless of how many you take. More of them simply make it a bit easier for at least one of them to accomplish what you're trying to do....that doesnt mean you'll win a game by doing it. Bring 30 swooping hawks to a battle, and while they might kill some stuff by rubber-hawking, you probably wont see a good return for the points spent on them

Isn't the concept of 'good return for points value' a holdover from 4th ed? If your rubber-band swooping hawks come down on turn 6 and contest/capture 3 objectives winning the game for eldar, did they not earn their points right there?

Spamming does not necessarily mean killer units, it means units that win the game.